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Awhile back I did a post on how Storm Troopers should be. Now that 6th is out it would seem that some things wont change (hot shot lasguns). So I present to you now what the future Storm Trooper should be in the future codex...hopefully. Please criticism wanted as well as your opinions and such. Most things are to fit fluff usfulness with point values. New things in Bold and Caps. Different Ideas presented, you can choose which you like as well.

90 Pts for base squad of 5 models w/ sergeant

Can have up to 5 more models for 17 pts per model

WS 4
BS 4
S 3
T 3
I3
A 1 (2 with Pistol)
Ld 8

Special Rules: Special Operations, Stubborn
Wargear: Hotshot lasgun, hotshot laspistol, caraprace armour, frag and krak grenades
Special issue Wargear that can be purchased as an upgrade:
Power Packs: +1S to all hot shot weapons - 2pts per model
Targetors: + 6 range to all weapons - 3 pts per model[/size]

Sergeant can replace CCW for Power Fist - 15 pts

For every 5 models, two can have access to a special weapon.

Option to have entire squad have melta bombs: 20 pts

They are the best regular humans have to offer. Trained for specific roles. Access to best gear which explains the access to special weapons and new gear. Stubborn comes from them being trained in the same place commisars come from (as well as the stubborn). WS 4....cmon even body guards have ws4 and generals that dont fight...these are the best of the best and it wont affect the game much either.

The complaint is that marines are WS4 BS4.
IMO, make storm troopers WS4 BS4, and make marine vets WS5.

I don't think 40K has enough of a mix in weapon skills. It should steal a page from Fantasy and run with units between WS1 (zombie) to WS6 (elf swordmaster) and run with characters in the WS4(warrior preist/wight king) to WS9 (assassin).

Weapon skill isn't really all that over-powering and a wider range would make it mean more.

-Matt

Stormtroopers, Commissars and Sisters of Battle are all trained on the Schola Progenium, so their base stat lines should all be the same. As it stands, that is;

Trooper: WS 3 BS 4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld 8
Leader: WS 3 BS 4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld 9
Elite: WS 4 BS 4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld 8
E.L.: WS 4 BS 4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld 9
Hero: WS 4 BS 5 S3 T3 W3 I4 A3 Ld 10

Although male Heroes get WS5 as well for whatever reason.

I don't really think there's anything wrong with this, although it would be nice to have Veteran Stormtroopers with the +1 WS / A at maybe 2 points more per model.

However, I do think that Stormtroopers should be able to swap Deep Strike for Power Armour if they so choose, and take Valkyries as Dedicated Transports if they choose not to do so.

However, I do think that Stormtroopers should be able to swap Deep Strike for Power Armour if they so choose, and take Valkyries as Dedicated Transports if they choose not to do so.

If they do, they should receive a penalty to either movement or initiative. They don't have the black carapace so they would be slower than space marines.

Storm Troopers don't need WS 4, they're not an assault unit. What they need is one (or more) of:

1) Scoring, either as a "special operations" choice, or with a character that makes them troops. Congratulations, now you have the ideal "move up and take the objective" unit for IG, especially combined with outflanking/Vendettas/etc.

2) Lower cost per model. Their main drawback is the high point cost, they're not bad suicide melta, but adding more models to the squad is usually just too expensive.

3) Higher-strength gun. AP 3 is awesome, but with only STR 3 they're kind of disappointing for the price. STR 4/5 would make them a genuinely scary threat to MEQs and give a good reason to buy more than a minimum-size unit.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Although male Heroes get WS5 as well for whatever reason.

Canoness and Commissar Lords are both WS5.

also I'd like to see them get AP3 in melee. the Kasrkin sergent already hooks his sword onto his power pack.

psychadelicmime wrote:

However, I do think that Stormtroopers should be able to swap Deep Strike for Power Armour if they so choose, and take Valkyries as Dedicated Transports if they choose not to do so.

If they do, they should receive a penalty to either movement or initiative. They don't have the black carapace so they would be slower than space marines.

Nah, Sisters do just fine without the Black Carapace and are still M6" I3.

Lotet wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Although male Heroes get WS5 as well for whatever reason.

Canoness and Commissar Lords are both WS5.

also I'd like to see them get AP3 in melee. the Kasrkin sergent already hooks his sword onto his power pack.

Canoness is only WS4. Trust me, I actively play Sisters. The Kasrkin Sergeant presumably has a power weapon, which is AP3, so that works.

Well, let's go down the line then.

Kasrkin52 wrote:
16-18 pts a model

WS 4

People always clamor for this, and I can't figure out why. I just don't see them as an assault unit. Even dedicated assault units don't get improved WS. Consider assault squads. That's the type of combat they train to do, and they're only as good at it as a Tac marine. On top of that, improved WS is NEVER as significant as any other improved attribute.

BS 4
S 3
T 3
I3
A 1 (2 with Pistol)
Ld [b]9 or 8 if Stubborn Special rule applies[/b]

Leadership has always been a frustrating point for me. Rather than making them be SM Sarge leadership, perhaps instead all of them count as being LD 8, not just the sarge?

Special Rules: Special Operations, Stubborn
Wargear: Hotshot lasgun, hotshot laspistol, caraprace armour, frag and krak grenades
Special issue Wargear: Power Packs: +1S to all hot shot weapons, Targetors: + 6 range to all weapons

Sergeant to have access to get melta bombs and powerfist.

I'm not sure about the stubborn auto-include. Not saying it's a bad idea. Perhaps something akin to the veteran doctrines where they can buy it for X number of points? 20 points sounds good off the top of my head, but that could require playtesting. I don't like the targeters option. Too obvious of an autoinclude, and it takes away from what makes hotshots unique. Power packs seem too obvious as well, and they make these guys better than sternguard at that point. Maybe they make the hotshots actually "gets hot!" at that point? They should also cost a point or two, i think.

I like the additional sergeant equipment.

Squad size 5-10

2 special weapons standard. If you get 5 more troopers you get access to 2 more (plasmaguns, meltaguns, flamers, grenade launchers)

Option to have entire squad have melta bombs??

Not sure about 2 extra special weapons. How about 1 extra special weapon at 10 man squad size? My thought is that you're already making these guys worth taking at 10 man strong, you don't need to make them MORE obvious at 10 man.

They are the best regular humans have to offer. Trained for specific roles. Access to best gear which explains the access to special weapons and new gear. Leadership comes from them being trained in the same place commisars come from (as well as the stubborn). WS 4....cmon even body guards have ws4 and generals that dont fight...these are the best of the best and it wont affect the game much.

Targetors can be an optional thing for the entire squad...maybe 3-4 pts a model? I think the powerpacks should be standard or if you want maybe 2 pts a model.

Again, why is WS4 such a sticking point, beyond, well, status, or something? Because they were trained at the same school as commissars doesn't make them commissars. I went to the same school as an mechanical engineer I know. That doesn't mean he knows anything about programming or that I know all that much about physics.

Peregrine wrote:Storm Troopers don't need WS 4, they're not an assault unit. What they need is one (or more) of:

1) Scoring, either as a "special operations" choice, or with a character that makes them troops. Congratulations, now you have the ideal "move up and take the objective" unit for IG, especially combined with outflanking/Vendettas/etc.

2) Lower cost per model. Their main drawback is the high point cost, they're not bad suicide melta, but adding more models to the squad is usually just too expensive.

3) Higher-strength gun. AP 3 is awesome, but with only STR 3 they're kind of disappointing for the price. STR 4/5 would make them a genuinely scary threat to MEQs and give a good reason to buy more than a minimum-size unit.

I agree with most all of this. Scoring alone would make these guys worth it, even if it had to follow the same tired "take a special character so often that he's not really 'special' anymore" formula to do it.

They're fine as is minus cost. Keep everything as is then reduce the points cost slightly.

 gpfunk wrote:
They're fine as is minus cost. Keep everything as is then reduce the points cost slightly.

Really, I'd argue that they're fine as-is with the points cost were it's at. I use them. I love them. I just don't feel like they get to be used in any way beyond deep-strike meltacide.

 Kasrkin52 wrote:

16-18 pts a model

One of the main problems with storm troopers is that they cost too much. Why pay 165 points for a squad of 10 storm troopers when a squad of vets with 3 plasma guns costs much less and can do about the same damage against marines?

WS 4
BS 4
S 3
T 3
I3
A 1 (2 with Pistol)
Ld [b]9 or 8 if Stubborn Special rule applies[/b]

I don't mind WS 4, but Ld 9 is too much, SM just get Ld 8, and IIRC SoB probably get the same. The only reasoning for such a high leadership is because Commissars get it, and Commissars are focused much more on courage and leadership than fighting directly to achieve victory.

Special issue Wargear: Power Packs: +1S to all hot shot weapons

I don't mind targeters, but this I do have a problem with. Marines have their own shooty elite, called Sternguard, they have lots of special ammo, including one for killing marines. The thing is, their ammo is identical to ST guns with power packs and targeters except it has gets hot. So in effect you are giving the IG elite better guns than the Space Marine elite.

Sergeant to have access to get melta bombs and powerfist.

No issue here.

If you get 5 more troopers you get access to 2 more (plasmaguns, meltaguns, flamers, grenade launchers)

Please no. Storm Troopers don't have to be suicide squads where you just jump in with an assortment of special weapons, kill your target, and die. By tossing in so many special weapons you are reinforcing this role. Perhaps 1 in 5 getting an SW or 1 in 3 getting an SW, but 1 in 4 is simply too much.

Option to have entire squad have melta bombs??

Sure

Trained for specific roles.

Not really, Storm Troopers are like do all special forces, they can deepstrike, infiltrate, scout ahead of the main army, spearhead an offensive, eliminate a target. Not that this means much in relation to rules.

Access to best gear which explains the access to special weapons and new gear.

Except you are making them better equipped than the elite of the Space Marines

Leadership comes from them being trained in the same place commisars come from (as well as the stubborn). WS 4....cmon even body guards have ws4 and generals that dont fight...these are the best of the best and it wont affect the game much.

Have to agree with another comment, perhaps offer a "veteran" upgrade for like 1 or 2 PPM in exchange for WS 4, even then it is fairly useless for humans. As for the leadership, they get Ld 8 because they come from the Schola, IG vets still only get 7, marines get 8, SoB get 8 I think.

Targetors can be an optional thing for the entire squad...maybe 3-4 pts a model? I think the powerpacks should be standard or if you want maybe 2 pts a model.

3-4 PPM for +6in range? I would only ever take that for fluff reasons. Maybe like 5-10 points per squad, maybe 1PPM. As for the power packs, STs never needed Str 4 guns, it would be cool, but they should rely on volume of fire to thin out the numbers of MEQs, not having guns that surpass marines in every way.

Here is my suggestion.
Storm Troopers: 75(80?) (+14(15?) per each added guy)
WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1(2) Ld:8 Sv:4+
Special Rules:
Deepstrike, Special Operations

Equipment:
HSLG, HSLP, frag and krak grenades, carapace armour

Upgrades:
Veterans: 2PPM, +1WS and Stubborn
1 SW per 5 guys or 2 per squad (same options as all other IG units)
Squad leader can take a power fist, power weapon, plasma pistol, bolt pistol, or bolter
Entire Squad can take meltabombs (2 PPM)

And finally another special operation
Vanguard: The unit must start the game on the board but may take an additional heavy weapon and special weapon.

So you can be as well equipped as vets in terms of special and heavy weapons in return for losing other special operations, you can get WS 4 if you want, but you still have worse equipment and abilities than marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
They're fine as is minus cost. Keep everything as is then reduce the points cost slightly.

Really, I'd argue that they're fine as-is with the points cost were it's at. I use them. I love them. I just don't feel like they get to be used in any way beyond deep-strike meltacide.

But what is the point of that? I hate suicide units, yeah they are efficient, but it is just lame, drop in these super elite storm troopers just so they can blow up a tank and die.

Buttons wrote:

But what is the point of that? I hate suicide units, yeah they are efficient, but it is just lame, drop in these super elite storm troopers just so they can blow up a tank and die.

Well, that's kind of my point: They're effective, but lame right now. But at least they're effective. That's better than a lot of units out there.

...That's because people used them in the meltacide runs that fascinated everyone back in 5e for some reason. If you use Stormtroopers more cautiously and with more support they aren't suicide units. Not like Fire Dragons, stuck with 12" range everything; Stormtroopers have the potential to do other things with their AP3 guns, broader weapon selection, and access to flying transports/Deep Strike/whatnot.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If you use Stormtroopers more cautiously and with more support they aren't suicide units. Not like Fire Dragons, stuck with 12" range everything; Stormtroopers have the potential to do other things with their AP3 guns, broader weapon selection, and access to flying transports/Deep Strike/whatnot.

Sorry, but I can spend all this trouble on my Veterans too. An they are cheaper, scoring, have more special weapons and can take a demo charge.

I would say that ST-s need WS4, Ld10, a point drop to 13/14ppm, an option for heavy flamer/demo charge (above the spec weapon options) and the option to take Valkyres/Vendettas as dedicated transports.

 AtoMaki wrote:

I would say that ST-s need WS4, Ld10, a point drop to 13/14ppm, an option for heavy flamer/demo charge (above the spec weapon options) and the option to take Valkyres/Vendettas as dedicated transports.

No. No. NO. Better Ld than a Space Marine Veteran and the option to take the best and most undercosted flyer in the game as a Dedicated Transport, while getting CHEAPER?

Dedicated Transports I support, but WS4 and Ld10 make little to no sense in the context of the background and even less sense in the context of the game. Space Marines are WS4 and BS4, are you telling me that your random (albeit highly trained) grunt undergoes the same level of training as the Imperium's armies of centuries-old genetically-modified super-soldiers? You don't have a lot of ground to stand on there now that Scouts have been dropped to WS/BS3. Ld10 is also virtually useless if you're not planning on getting them into close combat and sticking them there.

Either WS4 or Ld10 is utterly useless on the tabletop unless you want to get them into assaults, which you really shouldn't; first, you're playing Guard which should be avoiding assaults at all costs unless you're using an expendable unit (which Stormtroopers aren't) to stall the enemy, second, Stormtroopers' primary competitive advantage is that they have AP3 lasguns (which everyone seems to ignore), they're not supposed to be assault troops, they're supposed to blast the enemy into next week at mid/short ranges.

Suppose that Stormtroopers could choose one Order each turn to benefit from, without having to roll for Ld or being in range? The fluff would be that they're much better trained than normal guardsmen. Space Marines not having the same capability is a bit strange, but then again so is Space Marines scattering more than Stormtroopers in the first place.

Would be interesting if IG could have a special character that would unlock them as a troops choice. Maybe an inquisitor, since they aren't unlocked in the GK codex.

Blaggard wrote:
Would be interesting if IG could have a special character that would unlock them as a troops choice. Maybe an inquisitor, since they aren't unlocked in the GK codex.

He'd be less used than any of the rarely used characters IG gets as it is. Storm troopers are barely worth their points, scoring on top won't make much of a difference.

Ok so Ld 8 looks fine, not 9 then. Agreed. Made the edit.

I still think stubborn would not ne so OP and to the fluff.

WS 4 is for the fluff, and really....this wouldnt be a game changer either.

4 special weapons for 10 guys...the idea is that they have access to the best weapons....vets have 3 so why cant Stormies have 4? The idea is kind of like from the DE book for trueborn or scourges.

And as for the S3 volume of fire? Are you kidding me? This is ok for a blob squad doing first rank second rank but for a squad of ten guys minus that rule? Its laughable. S4 is a must...an upgrade or special issue gear thats included is not a big deal.

So the targetors thing is too OP or what?

 Kasrkin52 wrote:


And as for the S3 volume of fire? Are you kidding me? This is ok for a blob squad doing first rank second rank but for a squad of ten guys minus that rule? Its laughable. S4 is a must...an upgrade or special issue gear thats included is not a big deal.

The thing is though, why would Space Marines use Bolters if Hot-Shot Lasguns had the same stopping power and better AP? It doesn't make sense and, as pointed out, it'd even eclipse the Special Issue Ammunition that Sternguard get.

Because marines are for the shock value? Hot shots will still have the same effect on flesh as normal lasguns in visual effects (small hole) whilst bolters provide a bloody, explosive end. Space marines are supposed to be shock troops, the elite, something that the enemy is supposed to fear. A las weapon just doesn't have the same effect on enemies as the bolter.

Give them the apocalypse special rule as an order for their sergeant.

When they arrive out of an aircraft, they shoot, run. then shoot again at a different target as a result of a successful order from the sgt. They can take 2 special weapons per 5 glory boys. One storm trooper may deploy a defensive grenade that 'blinds' the enemy unit shot at, in addition to reducing them to init 1 in the following assault phase, for both units shot at. Call it shock and awe. On the turn they disembark, they are awesome, but if you don't have an assault coming next turn, they are boned.


THAT WOULD BE AWESOME AND FAIR

Just to interject a bit of math for the people belittling the AP3 lasguns:

Space Marine boltgun versus T4/Sv3+ MEQ: 11% to kill
Stormtrooper Hotshot Lasgun versus T4/Sv3+ MEQ: 22% to kill

Space Marine Boltgun versus T6/Sv3+ Wraithguard: 3.7% to kill
Stormtrooper Hotshot Lasgun versus T6/Sv3+ Wraithguard: 11% to kill

Space Marine Boltgun versus T3/Sv5+ Guardsman: 44% to kill
Stormtrooper Hotshot Lasgun versus T3/Sv5+ Guardsman: 33% to kill

Honestly, S4 doesn't help anywhere near as much as AP3 does unless you're up against specifically T7 targets or anything with a 5+ or worse save. It's far from a 'must', Stormtroopers are pretty darned good already.

WS4 still makes no sense in context of the fluff; Stormtroopers aren't supposed to be hand-to-hand experts in the same way Space Marines are, putting them on equal footing in skill with a centuries-old genetically-enhanced super-soldier, a biologically-engineered killing machine that does nothing besides fight, or a space elf cultist of the war god makes no sense at all for a unit of elite infantry that are trained primarily to shoot people; there's also the problem that you will literally never use it unless you get Stormtroopers into close combat, which is all kinds of stupid since you're wasting the AP3 guns you paid such a premium for.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Better Ld than a Space Marine Veteran

Every random Lord Comissar in the universe has Ld10. And every random guardsman around them have Ld10 too. And remember, I'll give them only Ld10, so no Stubborn.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
and the option to take the best and most undercosted flyer in the game as a Dedicated Transport

It isn't my fault that the Vendetta is a must-trash entry . And the option to take valks/vends would give them something over the vets other than "we can meltacide".

Space Marines are WS4 and BS4, are you telling me that your random (albeit highly trained) grunt undergoes the same level of training as the Imperium's armies of centuries-old genetically-modified super-soldiers?

Sure. Your completely random DKoK trooper has it, even though his biggest speciality is that he is good with bayonets (bayonets, for god's sake...). And I'm not telling anything. The IG codex prettty much states it in the ST fluff.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Better Ld than a Space Marine Veteran

Every random Lord Comissar in the universe has Ld10. And every random guardsman around them have Ld10 too. And remember, I'll give them only Ld10, so no Stubborn.

That's still better Ld than the Space Marine Veterans, which is just silly. Commissars are special because they're more or less insane TBH. And, again, that's LORD Commissars, as in the most highly decorated and awesome of Commissars.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

That's still better Ld than the Space Marine Veterans, which is just silly. Commissars are special because they're more or less insane TBH. And, again, that's LORD Commissars, as in the most highly decorated and awesome of Commissars.

Gosh, just imagine it like the Lord Commissar has a 24/7 comms line to the STs . Ld10 would be good for the STs mainly for a game mechanic reason: pinning, random "Ld test or you suck" and breaking tests could really worsen the STs performance.

And an average, psycho-indoctrinated, meant-to-be-fearless, tireless-hero-killing-machine Space Marine is Ld8. The same as your average right-out-of-the-prison scum Penal Legionnaire. Or the humble, one-in-the-bazillion Guardsman Sergeant... But thats why the SM have ATSKNF.

Ld10 is normally reserved for HQ choices and is pretty useless outside of close combat anyway; why is this an interesting argument? It's silly and it's never going to work.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Ld10 is normally reserved for HQ choices and is pretty useless outside of close combat anyway; why is this an interesting argument? It's silly and it's never going to work.

Ld10 helps everywhere but in close-combat (where you will take the Ld test with a -65319 modifier anyway). Stubborn helps just in close-combat (where you will probably get stuck instead of retreating, and maybe regrouping with your nice Ld10).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Lotet wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Although male Heroes get WS5 as well for whatever reason.

Canoness and Commissar Lords are both WS5.

also I'd like to see them get AP3 in melee. the Kasrkin sergent already hooks his sword onto his power pack.

Canoness is only WS4. Trust me, I actively play Sisters. The Kasrkin Sergeant presumably has a power weapon, which is AP3, so that works.

they're WS5 from a particular pair of White Dwarf issues, also it's in the Rule Book. for whatever that's worth. I looked, just to be sure. you should look over the rules if you haven't already.

and yes, of course it's a power weapon, but he also has his pistol hooked up and would still be able to fire his non existent rifle. all the Kasrkins would have a Close Combat weapon, a Pistol and a Rifle.