Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Pavane: This movement follows the same rule as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain.
Charge: following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be be moved within 1" of enemy models.

So please explain why the normal move can change Flight type, but Movement phase rules do not.

Pg 49 FMC; Changing Flight Mode last sentence : "until the start of its next turn"

My question was directed at Mannahnin whose claim is that Pavane allows you to choose Flight mode, but Charging does not.

Happyjew wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Pavane: This movement follows the same rule as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain.
Charge: following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be be moved within 1" of enemy models.

So please explain why the normal move can change Flight type, but Movement phase rules do not.

Pg 49 FMC; Changing Flight Mode last sentence : "until the start of its next turn"

My question was directed at Mannahnin whose claim is that Pavane allows you to choose Flight mode, but Charging does not.

My bad Happy, It didn't feel directed at me but one can hardly tell sometimes. Either way I answered it for Man than ^^

That doesn't answer the question, You are stuck in the given Flight mode until the start of your next turn. When hit by the Pavane, is it the start of your next turn? No. So why would you get to change the Flight mode?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Pavane: This movement follows the same rule as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain.
Charge: following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be be moved within 1" of enemy models.

So please explain why the normal move can change Flight type, but Movement phase rules do not.

Pg 49 FMC; Changing Flight Mode last sentence : "until the start of its next turn"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 forchoas wrote:
where does it say i have to choose my mode in my movement it says at the start of its move and in the movement page of the rule book it states that i dont have to move my models

If you didn't move it, than you chose to move it 0" during its move.

so if i move 0" in the movement phase with my heavy weapon squad i have to snap fire at my targates because i moved 0" and if a model with a heavy weapon moved in the movement phase it must snap fire.

@jd, part of hte problem is I wasn't quoting, and there were multiple posts one after the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@forchoas; If you choose Swooping you must move a minimum distance with a single pivot. If you don't move the model in the Movement phase and then prior to Running choose to Swoop, you did not move the necessary distance.

.

Happyjew wrote:
@jd, part of hte problem is I wasn't quoting, and there were multiple posts one after the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@forchoas; If you choose Swooping you must move a minimum distance with a single pivot. If you don't move the model in the Movement phase and then prior to Running choose to Swoop, you did not move the necessary distance.

I think that chaos' idea is that your move that you do during shooting to run is distinct from your movement phase, IE you choose to glide in the movement phase, following the rules for gliding, then can declare you will run and at the start of your run movement you would declare your swooping, much like you would declare you're gliding at the start of the assault phase in order to change from swooping to gliding and charge. This is all provided that pavane is allowed to change your flight mode. If not disregard (almost) this entire thread.

I'm all for Pavane changing my flight mode. I want the 24" of movement followed by a 2d6" assault with my Flyrant.

You can't Pavane your own guys, because you can't target your own units with a shooting attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Pavane: This movement follows the same rule as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain.
Charge: following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be be moved within 1" of enemy models.

So please explain why the normal move can change Flight type, but Movement phase rules do not.

Pg 49 FMC; Changing Flight Mode last sentence : "until the start of its next turn"

My question was directed at Mannahnin whose claim is that Pavane allows you to choose Flight mode, but Charging does not.

Apologies. My Daemons codex is out in the trunk of the car. Anyone care to quote Pavane?

 Mannahnin wrote:
You can't Pavane your own guys, because you can't target your own units with a shooting attack.

Right - my point is that if you're asserting Pavane can change my movement type, then so can a Charge move... So I swoop in the movement phase, then declare a charge, switch to Glide and assault. Yay.

 Mannahnin wrote:
You can't Pavane your own guys, because you can't target your own units with a shooting attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Pavane: This movement follows the same rule as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain.
Charge: following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be be moved within 1" of enemy models.

So please explain why the normal move can change Flight type, but Movement phase rules do not.

Pg 49 FMC; Changing Flight Mode last sentence : "until the start of its next turn"

My question was directed at Mannahnin whose claim is that Pavane allows you to choose Flight mode, but Charging does not.

Apologies. My Daemons codex is out in the trunk of the car. Anyone care to quote Pavane?

This I believe (asked for it from a 3rd person):

the pavane is a ranged weapon with a range of 18. roll to hit as normal. if the targate unit is hit, it will immediately begin to dance to the tune of the lord of excess - the firer can immediately move the target up to d6 inches. this movement follows the same rules as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain..

This is what I think we're all contending...if pavane follows the same rules as a normal move and it is the expectation that all other 'moves' in the game have to follow the same rules, why cant you change flight mode any time you would have the option to move IE consolidation, running, charging etc.?

Which is the point I tried to make in the Lash thread, but I wasn't clear enough.

thanatos67 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
You can't Pavane your own guys, because you can't target your own units with a shooting attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Pavane: This movement follows the same rule as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain.
Charge: following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be be moved within 1" of enemy models.

So please explain why the normal move can change Flight type, but Movement phase rules do not.

Pg 49 FMC; Changing Flight Mode last sentence : "until the start of its next turn"

My question was directed at Mannahnin whose claim is that Pavane allows you to choose Flight mode, but Charging does not.

Apologies. My Daemons codex is out in the trunk of the car. Anyone care to quote Pavane?

This I believe (asked for it from a 3rd person):

the pavane is a ranged weapon with a range of 18. roll to hit as normal. if the targate unit is hit, it will immediately begin to dance to the tune of the lord of excess - the firer can immediately move the target up to d6 inches. this movement follows the same rules as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain..

This is what I think we're all contending...if pavane follows the same rules as a normal move and it is the expectation that all other 'moves' in the game have to follow the same rules, why cant you change flight mode any time you would have the option to move IE consolidation, running, charging etc.?

The rules for changing flight mode don't work that way. It's on pg 49 the paragraph title is obvious. The last line of it will sum it up.

Dont have the BRB with me, i'm guessing its as you said though and that you cant change flight mode until its next turn (ie the models next turn). Does pavane override this somehow Mann? I checked the GW faq there was no clarification thusfar. While I agree it would follow the rules for a normal move it doesnt say that you can change the flight mode that the model has to carry till the next turn. Unless your contending that pavane auto ends your turn and begins the FMC players next turn, which would be a terrible consequence.

thanatos67 wrote:
Dont have the BRB with me, i'm guessing its as you said though and that you cant change flight mode until its next turn (ie the models next turn). Does pavane override this somehow Mann? I checked the GW faq there was no clarification thusfar. While I agree it would follow the rules for a normal move it doesnt say that you can change the flight mode that the model has to carry till the next turn. Unless your contending that pavane auto ends your turn and begins the FMC players next turn, which would be a terrible consequence.

Pavane does no such thing, have a Daemon Dex right here. Yea same thing I quoted earlier, in no way does pavane lift that restriction.

My contention has been that "this movement follows the same rules as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain", results in choosing a flight mode, because when beginning a "normal move", an FMC must choose a flight mode.

Running, assaulting, and Consolidating are not "normal moves", being restricted in a bunch of specific ways, and also running into the "until the start of its next turn" restriction.

Part of my perspective on Pavane is also informed by the old FAQ answer on Lash when people asked how it was supposed to work and what restrictions were on it.

Q. Can you use Lash of Submission to move models around within a unit and re-arrange them? Can models be moved out of unit coherency? Can a unit be moved out of combat? If a unit is moved into dangerous terrain, do they have to test? If jump infantry are moved, are they assumed to be using their packs or walking? Can a unit be shoved right off the table, or into impassable terrain? (p88)
A. The move created by this power is executed exactly like a normal move, except that it’s not slowed by difficult terrain. It follows that, for example:
• the 2D6" distance rolled is the unit’s maximum move, as normal, and models in the unit can move up to that distance or less.
• models cannot be moved out of coherency.
• units cannot be moved out of combat.
• dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal.
• jump infantry may choose to move either with their packs or on foot (moving player’s choice).
• units cannot enter impassable terrain, leave the table or be moved closer than 1" to enemy models.

This basically goes into great length to tell us that when moving a unit with Lash, a "normal move" really does mean all the normal options and procedures that you'd follow if it were your own model in your own movement phase. Pavane, to be consistent, follows the same principles. That's the way I've always seen it treated and have seen TOs rule (including at BFS, recently).

Not to say that I think it's the only possible interpretation. I could see it being ruled the other way.

 Mannahnin wrote:
My contention has been that "this movement follows the same rules as a normal move, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain", results in choosing a flight mode, because when beginning a "normal move", an FMC must choose a flight mode.

Running, assaulting, and Consolidating are not "normal moves", being restricted in a bunch of specific ways, and also running into the "until the start of its next turn" restriction.


Not to say that I think it's the only possible interpretation. I could see it being ruled the other way.

However nowhere does it say "normal" move, and being forced to move isn't quite normal at all. Pavane is still under the second restriction. However as Pavane needs to hit, it has a chance to knock a FMC out of the sky. ( which would be hilarious) (falls to the ground and breakdances towards you)

"At the start of its move" "until the start of its next turn"

Looking at Pavane there is nothing that lifts the second limitation. If it wasn't for that limitation FMC's would be absolutely broken.

Yeah, they'd be broken.

However nowhere does it say "normal" move...

It does so in the rules for Pavane. Or you mean in the FMC rules? Okay, so it says "at the start of its move", and says the mode chosen lasts "until the start of its next turn." Okay, so we know that running can't cancel it.

My contention is that Pavane, unlike Running, creates a "start of its move" situation identical to the one you have when the owner first moves the model in his movement phase. The Pavaning player, assuming he hits, moves the model exactly in the manner he would if it were his own model in his own movement phase. First starting by picking a flight mode, which will last until the start of the FMC's next turn.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yeah, they'd be broken.

However nowhere does it say "normal" move...

It does so in the rules for Pavane. Or you mean in the FMC rules? Okay, so it says "at the start of its move", and says the mode chosen lasts "until the start of its next turn." Okay, so we know that running can't cancel it.

My contention is that Pavane, unlike Running, creates a "start of its move" situation identical to the one you have when the owner first moves the model in his movement phase. The Pavaning player, assuming he hits, moves the model exactly in the manner he would if it were his own model in his own movement phase. First starting by picking a flight mode, which will last until the start of the FMC's next turn.

I think we can agree to disagree here ^^
and yes to the FMC rules

Nowhere does it lift the restriction that it's not the beginning of the FMC's owners next turn ^^

So I still want to know if the only time that i can change flight modes is the start of my turn, when you do it for me, do you start my turn (subsequently ending yours)?

Sounds good to me :p

 forchoas wrote:
so if i move 0" in the movement phase with my heavy weapon squad i have to snap fire at my targates because i moved 0" and if a model with a heavy weapon moved in the movement phase it must snap fire.

The difference is that in order to not move, a FMC would have to declare that it's Gliding, otherwise it'd be forced to move at least 12" because of Swooping.

So, by the time you get to the Shooting or Assault phase, you must have already declared which movement mode you were using, and so you'd be locked into that until the start of its next turn (failed Grounded tests notwithstanding). Same goes for Pavane: the model is stuck in the movement mode until its next turn, so you can't change it.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yeah, they'd be broken.

However nowhere does it say "normal" move...

It does so in the rules for Pavane. Or you mean in the FMC rules? Okay, so it says "at the start of its move", and says the mode chosen lasts "until the start of its next turn." Okay, so we know that running can't cancel it.

My contention is that Pavane, unlike Running, creates a "start of its move" situation identical to the one you have when the owner first moves the model in his movement phase. The Pavaning player, assuming he hits, moves the model exactly in the manner he would if it were his own model in his own movement phase. First starting by picking a flight mode, which will last until the start of the FMC's next turn.

Why does Pavane have an exception but assaulting and running don't, despite similar wording on both?