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Blessing of the blood god. Page 59 Chaos codex (new)

If Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict instant death on him.

Double str still wipes him out....or any other instant death weapon in the game.

Here's the thing, an wound caused with a high enough Strength attack to inflict Instant Death still has the ID special rule. You have two forms of ID with a Dreadknight or Mephiston with a Force Weapon...high strength and the force weapon. Simply because the Force Weapon can cause ID doesn't override the ID from doubling out your opponent.

Kharns ability negates the force weapon method of inflicting ID but does not remove the high strength method. Therefore, you still have to deal with that method of ID, which Kharn has no defense for.

Also, if you're running a Dreadknight or Mephiston and playing against TFG that tries to say that Kharn is immune to both aspects of the ID wound, don't activate the Force Weapon. There's no rule that says you have to. Once you've killed Kharn, don't play that guy anymore.

For the record, I play Chaos and field Kharn from time to time.

Lungpickle wrote:
Blessing of the blood god. Page 59 Chaos codex (new)

If Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict instant death on him.

Double str still wipes him out....or any other instant death weapon in the game.

Double T wouldnt, as long as it's from a Force weapon. As karns rule is written poorly.
Either his rule won't work at all, or Force weapons cannot ID him, even if it's double T

By the way it doesn't matter if you're double Str, only that it's double my T, except in this case

 kcwm wrote:
Here's the thing, an wound caused with a high enough Strength attack to inflict Instant Death still has the ID special rule. You have two forms of ID with a Dreadknight or Mephiston with a Force Weapon...high strength and the force weapon. Simply because the Force Weapon can cause ID doesn't override the ID from doubling out your opponent.

Kharns ability negates the force weapon method of inflicting ID but does not remove the high strength method. Therefore, you still have to deal with that method of ID, which Kharn has no defense for.

Also, if you're running a Dreadknight or Mephiston and playing against TFG that tries to say that Kharn is immune to both aspects of the ID wound, don't activate the Force Weapon. There's no rule that says you have to. Once you've killed Kharn, don't play that guy anymore.

For the record, I play Chaos and field Kharn from time to time.

We all agree that this is the intent of the rule. However that is not what the rule says. Activated or not, the Force Weapon is still a Force Weapon; Kharn's ability doesn't make the distinction of how the ID is achieved.

RAW has slipped a few notches down with the advent of 6th edition. RAI is stronger overall as evidenced by both the new Errata and the FAQs that GW is releasing. I just don't think you can make as strong an argument now based upon RAW.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
RAW has slipped a few notches down with the advent of 6th edition. RAI is stronger overall as evidenced by both the new Errata and the FAQs that GW is releasing. I just don't think you can make as strong an argument now based upon RAW.

RAW, by its very definition, can never change. Neither can RAI. They never get weaker or stronger.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
RAW has slipped a few notches down with the advent of 6th edition. RAI is stronger overall as evidenced by both the new Errata and the FAQs that GW is releasing. I just don't think you can make as strong an argument now based upon RAW.

RAW, by its very definition, can never change. Neither can RAI. They never get weaker or stronger.

No, I get what Dozer Blades is saying. You can begin to judge what is reasonable and how you can expect others to interpret the rules based on how GW words an edition and how the FAQ's are treated. However, I also think that GW was a bit more in the "well of course you can" type of mind set when answering questions in the past. Now they seem to focus more on an errata version of Q&A that upon first glance seems very practical but down the road begins to create a whole new set of problems.

I hope GW's movement toward digital products will help reduce the need for FAQs in the future as they will more easily simply be able to update the codexes periodically as opposed to handeling FAQ's from time to time.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
RAW has slipped a few notches down with the advent of 6th edition. RAI is stronger overall as evidenced by both the new Errata and the FAQs that GW is releasing. I just don't think you can make as strong an argument now based upon RAW.

RAW, by its very definition, can never change. Neither can RAI. They never get weaker or stronger.

Oh, RAW changes all the time. Every time GW releases a FAQ, RAW changes. And RAW doesn't only change from Errata/Amendment section, but from the normal FAQ answers section too. (See: Necron FAQ about embarking on NS).

RAI also changes, but not nearly as often. At least I assume that FAQ answers are pretty much RAI, but GW has reversed their answers in FAQs at least in 5e. If that is not RAI changing, I'm having hard time seeing what is.

Luide wrote:
but GW has reversed their answers in FAQs at least in 5e.

They have. They reversed the SitW inside a vehicle FAQ in 5th.

 Lordhat wrote:

 kcwm wrote:
Here's the thing, an wound caused with a high enough Strength attack to inflict Instant Death still has the ID special rule. You have two forms of ID with a Dreadknight or Mephiston with a Force Weapon...high strength and the force weapon. Simply because the Force Weapon can cause ID doesn't override the ID from doubling out your opponent.

Kharns ability negates the force weapon method of inflicting ID but does not remove the high strength method. Therefore, you still have to deal with that method of ID, which Kharn has no defense for.

Also, if you're running a Dreadknight or Mephiston and playing against TFG that tries to say that Kharn is immune to both aspects of the ID wound, don't activate the Force Weapon. There's no rule that says you have to. Once you've killed Kharn, don't play that guy anymore.

For the record, I play Chaos and field Kharn from time to time.

We all agree that this is the intent of the rule. However that is not what the rule says. Activated or not, the Force Weapon is still a Force Weapon; Kharn's ability doesn't make the distinction of how the ID is achieved.

And it doesn't make the distinction that all types of ID are ignored, just ID caused by an activated force weapon. Double Toughness isn't an activated force weapon.

Permissive rule set? You don't have permission to ignore double toughness wounds, just ID caused by activated force weapons. Take away that activated force weapon and you still have Double Toughness.

 kcwm wrote:

 Lordhat wrote:

 kcwm wrote:
Here's the thing, an wound caused with a high enough Strength attack to inflict Instant Death still has the ID special rule. You have two forms of ID with a Dreadknight or Mephiston with a Force Weapon...high strength and the force weapon. Simply because the Force Weapon can cause ID doesn't override the ID from doubling out your opponent.

Kharns ability negates the force weapon method of inflicting ID but does not remove the high strength method. Therefore, you still have to deal with that method of ID, which Kharn has no defense for.

Also, if you're running a Dreadknight or Mephiston and playing against TFG that tries to say that Kharn is immune to both aspects of the ID wound, don't activate the Force Weapon. There's no rule that says you have to. Once you've killed Kharn, don't play that guy anymore.

For the record, I play Chaos and field Kharn from time to time.

We all agree that this is the intent of the rule. However that is not what the rule says. Activated or not, the Force Weapon is still a Force Weapon; Kharn's ability doesn't make the distinction of how the ID is achieved.

And it doesn't make the distinction that all types of ID are ignored, just ID caused by an activated force weapon. Double Toughness isn't an activated force weapon.

Permissive rule set? You don't have permission to ignore double toughness wounds, just ID caused by activated force weapons. Take away that activated force weapon and you still have Double Toughness.

Except the rule does not say "activated Force Weapon" it just says "Force Weapon". I agree that the double Toughness should still kill him off, however, if you attack with a Force Weapon at Str 8+, he is wounded by a Force Weapon and cannot be killed by ID.

 kcwm wrote:
just ID caused by an activated force weapon.

Except that isn't what the rule says.

The weapon does not cause wounds. Strength of attacks do. Trying to work your way around this rule by leaving out very important other rules doesn't make you correct. Force weapons do not have the instant death special rule. They have the Force special rule. AP is determined by the weapon type. AP doesn't cause wounds either. It's not RAI it's very much RAW. The rule of the book says attack strength that doubles the toughness of a target and is unsaved causes instant death. Whether he has a combat knife, power weapon, or force weapon. The type of weapon does not cause a wound.

 Mordechai wrote:
The weapon does not cause wounds. Strength of attacks do. Trying to work your way around this rule by leaving out very important other rules doesn't make you correct. Force weapons do not have the instant death special rule. They have the Force special rule. AP is determined by the weapon type. AP doesn't cause wounds either. It's not RAI it's very much RAW. The rule of the book says attack strength that doubles the toughness of a target and is unsaved causes instant death. Whether he has a combat knife, power weapon, or force weapon. The type of weapon does not cause a wound.

Weapons don't cause ID, Wounds do.

 Mordechai wrote:
The weapon does not cause wounds. Strength of attacks do. Trying to work your way around this rule by leaving out very important other rules doesn't make you correct. Force weapons do not have the instant death special rule. They have the Force special rule. AP is determined by the weapon type. AP doesn't cause wounds either. It's not RAI it's very much RAW. The rule of the book says attack strength that doubles the toughness of a target and is unsaved causes instant death. Whether he has a combat knife, power weapon, or force weapon. The type of weapon does not cause a wound.

So if we take this line of reasoning, then Kharn's rule doesn't protect him from instant death in any fashion. It's an all or nothing equation.

I look at it as a very specific form of eternal warrior. There are many forms of ID possible, Force Weapon, D Strength, Double the T, etc. Page 16 even states;

Even though a creature might have multiple Wounds, there are plenty of weapons in the 41st Millennium that are powerful enough to kill it instantly.

Here's my take on the subject.

First, the rule for Instant Death:

Unsaved Wounds inflicted by an Attack with this special rule automatically inflict Instant Death, regardless of the victim's Toughness (see page 16).

Second, page 16:

If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty.

Now I'll skip to wounding (Assault on page 25) :

In most cases, when rollingTo Wound in close combat,you use the Strength on the attacker's profile regardless of what weapon he is using. There are some Melee weapons that give the attacker a Strength bonus, and this is explained later in the Weapons section (see page 50).

The above set of instructions here is the most important determiner for me because it differs from shooting:

To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart.

Note the difference between shooting (weapon specific) and assault (model characteristic specific). So now we know that we're looking at assault and assault tells us that the strength characteristic determines wounds and page 16 tells us that double strength attacks will outright kill a model. In the case of assault, ID can be caused by the strength of the attacking model.

This makes his special ability nearly worthless, it was already limited to begin with, so I'll go with RAW a nemesis hammer will insta-kill him but RAI he'd live through it. *GASP* GW wrote a poorly worded rule? Never!

 agnosto wrote:
I'll go with RAW a nemesis hammer will insta-kill him but RAI he'd live through it. *GASP* GW wrote a poorly worded rule? Never!

You have it backwards, RAW he lives. RAI (and how everyone (most likely) plays it) he is squished.

Neither weapons nor Models inflict instant death. Wounds do. Kharns Ability denies force weapons the ability to inflict ID, and therefor it does nothing RAW.

Unsaved Wounds....... inflict Instant Death, regardless of the victim's Toughness (see page 16).

If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack...... it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty.

I'll agree that Kharn's Blessing is next to useless as the Psyker will have to save a charge just to activate the Force rule. If someone tries to ID Kharn with the Force rule they haven't been playing very long or have never seen nor read anything about Kharn.

Still doesn't change the fact that a S8+ attack will ID Kharn regardless what weapon the attacker is holding.

Kharn is protected from the Force rule of a force weapon he's not protected from an attack that doubles his toughness in strength.

Honestly... I don't see it poorly written at all. Its in black and white on the pages of the rulebook and Chaos codex. You compare the strength of the attack to the targets toughness to determine what you need to roll to wound. If the strength of the attack is double the toughness of the target then his wound pool is dropped to 0.

And it's Black and White in Kharn's entry. If the weapon used has the Force special rule Kharn is immune to Instant Death. A S8 weapon with the Force special rule will fail to inflict Instant Death on Kharn because it has the Force Special rule.

Should he be immune in this case? No, it should be restricted to successful activations of the Force special rule.
Is he immune in this case? Yes, his rules are clear. There are no restrictions on activation. If the weapon has Force he is immune, no exceptions.

Chrysis wrote:
And it's Black and White in Kharn's entry. If the weapon used has the Force special rule Kharn is immune to Instant Death. A S8 weapon with the Force special rule will fail to inflict Instant Death on Kharn because it has the Force Special rule.

As has been said, RAW Kharn's rule doesn't actually protect him from Instant Death at all because it has been worded wrongly. Weapons don't inflict ID, Wounds do.

Chrysis wrote:
Should he be immune in this case? No, it should be restricted to successful activations of the Force special rule.

This is obviously RAI and HIWPI.

Chrysis wrote:
Is he immune in this case? Yes, his rules are clear. There are no restrictions on activation. If the weapon has Force he is immune, no exceptions.

Again, Kharn's rule is currently written so that it does nothing RAW.