Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Agreed. A wreck is area terrain.

This is incorrect. The wreck is not area terrain. They are "left on the table and effectively become a piece of terrain (conferring a 5+ cover save), counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain." P.74

Nothing about area terrain there. Unless it is somewhere else and I missed it. If so point me there please and thanks.

It's a piece of terrain.
The terrain confers a 5+ save.
Unless its area terrain, that cannot be possible. Unless you're asserting that the 5+ only applies if the models are in the terrain and obscured.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Agreed. A wreck is area terrain.

This is incorrect. The wreck is not area terrain. They are "left on the table and effectively become a piece of terrain (conferring a 5+ cover save), counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain." P.74

Nothing about area terrain there. Unless it is somewhere else and I missed it. If so point me there please and thanks.

It's a piece of terrain.
The terrain confers a 5+ save.
Unless its area terrain, that cannot be possible. Unless you're asserting that the 5+ only applies if the models are in the terrain and obscured.

What are you talking about? If the wreck blocks 25% of the model or models being shot they'll get a 5+ save, I fail to see what's complicated about that.. It's possible for wrecks to entirely obscure units (vehicle wrecks block a lot a decent amount of los)

Man, me and death reaper seem to be on the same side of rules discussions lately, it must truly be the end of days :p

A) that's a pretty big change from 5th that I evidently hadn't noticed
B) the state,ent that it confers a 5+ save is redundant since that's the default for obscuring anyway

Aaaaaand this is one of the many reasons why I hate The Relic mission... Assuming that you're physically able to land on the objective and it doesn't explode, then it seems like the only way to win is via secondary objectives.

 Crablezworth wrote:
[ Now. here's the thing, there's no standard size or dimensions for objectives...

The default in 6th is a flat round marker 1"-2" in diameter. See page 121.

Right, no standard

pg "coins or other counters, 1 to 2 inches in diameter"

pg 123 "as different objectives vary in shape and size, it is important to agree at the beginning of the game exactly from where the distance will be measured"

If you want further evidence


This was GW's limited edition objective counter set... so ya, looks like they aren't even following their own suggestions in terms of size.




In 5th I tended to use mostly 60mm bases with an actual object on them (weapons crate, generator ect)

Eventually as the local tournaments moved to 40mm bases for objectives I started just using poker chips. They ended up being sorta thee standard and the beauty was they were flat and didn't block any los or disrupt movement.

Back to the topic at hand, it seems that just like with terrain, you should talk to your opponent about objectives and how they'll work pre game, when you're defining all the terrain and agreeing on how it will be played.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The relic cannot be "under' a wreck (underneath area terrain), as that would be considered impassable terrain. Therefore it would be moved to the closest legal position.

Since when is a "wreck" impassible?

The claim is that the objective is "under" the wreck. The wreck is a piece of terrain. Can you show any instance where you are allowed to pick up a piece of terrain and put an objective under it ? The relic states that it cannot be in impassable terrain, and if it is dropped there you move it so that is it not. So unless you stating that a unit can go under the wreck to pick it up, then it is impassable and the relic would be moved.

Fragile wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The relic cannot be "under' a wreck (underneath area terrain), as that would be considered impassable terrain. Therefore it would be moved to the closest legal position.

Since when is a "wreck" impassible?

The claim is that the objective is "under" the wreck. The wreck is a piece of terrain. Can you show any instance where you are allowed to pick up a piece of terrain and put an objective under it ? The relic states that it cannot be in impassable terrain, and if it is dropped there you move it so that is it not. So unless you stating that a unit can go under the wreck to pick it up, then it is impassable and the relic would be moved.

The exact same problem arises if, say, a landraider were to drive over it and then get wrecked.

And either way, I can't find where a wreck is now impassable terrain...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
And either way, I can't find where a wreck is now impassable terrain...

So you're saying you're allowed to move the wreck out of the way?
Cite a rule allowing that please.

Nope, but since it is effectively area terrain, then a model can come in to BTB with the relic, as opposed ro dropping a vehicle on top of it so no one can get it.

But it is not "effectively area terrain" if that were true you could be on top of a rhino and still get a cover save, but this is not true.

The wreck is just terrain, and non-area terrain. because the rules do not say it is area terrain, so it is not.

Right. So you have to houserule it a bit to deal with this situation.

Crabz, that's still pretty standardized. 40mm or poker chips are the most commonplace size for an objective in the US. I've seen this across the country; Vegas, Chicago, and all over the NE.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Nope, but since it is effectively area terrain, then a model can come in to BTB with the relic, as opposed ro dropping a vehicle on top of it so no one can get it.

Citation for the underlined please.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Right. So you have to houserule it a bit to deal with this situation.

That is what I thought, I just wanted to double check in case I missed anything.

Thanks guys.

rigeld2 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Nope, but since it is effectively area terrain, then a model can come in to BTB with the relic, as opposed ro dropping a vehicle on top of it so no one can get it.

Citation for the underlined please.

The type of terrain is really irrelevant. IF the wreck forms terrain over top of existing terrain, that terrain (underneath the wreck) becomes impassable. You cannot move on the terrain under the wreck, therefore the relic has to move to where its not in impassable terrain.

*rubs temples* A wreck is dangerous and difficult terrain, a primary objective is a point in which you obtain an objective by moving over the location. It's location isn't important it's a narrative standpoint that you are trying to legitimize.

Simplest resolution is also the fairest to boot. While a vehicle remains active or alive ontop of the objective it is offically keeping enemies at bay. Once dead it makes terrain which is dangerous and difficult to get to, but as long as your model is able to end their move in base contact with the relic they will pick it up and continue the game as normal. So if you park a land raider there... yes you are fine especially if the enemy can't kill the AV14, but the moment it wrecks it isn't preventing movement.

Honestly the fact you make it seem like wrecks make it impossible to even stand there is ludicrous and wouldn't be given the terms dangerous or difficult if you couldn't walk within it or ontop of it. And as soon as you move along the board/wreck to get base with it's location upon the map guess what... you got the objective but not before rolling difficult terrain and dangerous terrain as well. That seems the most legit way to resolve this and follow the rules at the same time.

A bit of RAI and RAW

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
*rubs temples* A wreck is dangerous and difficult terrain, a primary objective is a point in which you obtain an objective by moving over the location. It's location isn't important it's a narrative standpoint that you are trying to legitimize.

Except the Relic requires to to end your movement in B2B.

Simplest resolution is also the fairest to boot. While a vehicle remains active or alive ontop of the objective it is offically keeping enemies at bay. Once dead it makes terrain which is dangerous and difficult to get to, but as long as your model is able to end their move in base contact with the relic they will pick it up and continue the game as normal. So if you park a land raider there... yes you are fine especially if the enemy can't kill the AV14, but the moment it wrecks it isn't preventing movement.

Cite permission to move around inside terrain that isn't area terrain.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Once dead it makes terrain which is dangerous and difficult to get to, but as long as your model is able to end their move in base contact with the relic they will pick it up and continue the game as normal. So if you park a land raider there... yes you are fine especially if the enemy can't kill the AV14, but the moment it wrecks it isn't preventing movement.

You are contradicting yourself. How is the model supposed to get under the Land Raider to get in btb?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Honestly the fact you make it seem like wrecks make it impossible to even stand there is ludicrous and wouldn't be given the terms dangerous or difficult if you couldn't walk within it or ontop of it. And as soon as you move along the board/wreck to get base with it's location upon the map guess what... you got the objective but not before rolling difficult terrain and dangerous terrain as well. That seems the most legit way to resolve this and follow the rules at the same time.

You can definitely walk around on top of it. If you are saying that you can simply walk through any terrain, does that mean you believe that you can also walk your models through a hill, rather than over it?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

A bit of houserules I made up

Fixed that one for you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, do I think it is a TFG move to block the Relic this way? Yes.

Does it stop you getting in btb? Yes.

Does it stop the guy who does it getting in btb? Yes.

The only models I can see getting underneath the land raider are scarabs and nurglings (the old ones, not the silly new stacks). Seeing as how swarms cannot take objectives, these would not be able to get the Relic anyway. Heck, if you mount the scarabs on the little sticks they come with, they probably could not get under the LR either.

brb pg 90 right column, second paragraph. dealing with difficult terrain and moving within it.to paraphrase:

the model can move through it without as if it were not solid, even though the physical terrain might be.


No, due to placement issues you may not be able to End your move within the DP, you CAN move through it, grab the relic, and walk right out the other side provided you roll high enough for difficult.


If you want to argue that it's not area or difficult, and since the brb does not say it's impassable, then the ONLY option left is OPEN terrain. Then you don't even have to roll for distance of movement. Either way there is no valid argument to stop you from getting the relic and being on you way.

pyre wrote:
you CAN move through it, grab the relic, and walk right out the other side provided you roll high enough for difficult.
Either way there is no valid argument to stop you from getting the relic and being on you way.

You are incorrect.

You pick the relic up at the end of the movement phase.

It would be illegal to move to it, pick it up, and move out the other side all in the same move.

 nolzur wrote:

You can definitely walk around on top of it. If you are saying that you can simply walk through any terrain, does that mean you believe that you can also walk your models through a hill, rather than over it?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

A bit of houserules I made up

Fixed that one for you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, do I think it is a TFG move to block the Relic this way? Yes.

Does it stop you getting in btb? Yes.

Does it stop the guy who does it getting in btb? Yes.

The only models I can see getting underneath the land raider are scarabs and nurglings (the old ones, not the silly new stacks). Seeing as how swarms cannot take objectives, these would not be able to get the Relic anyway. Heck, if you mount the scarabs on the little sticks they come with, they probably could not get under the LR either.

Lawl you have a hard time trying to convince people you aren't a jerk don't you? If you want to try "Straight talk" you might want to try not insulting the person right before hand, otherwise stellar move you social virtuoso *golfclap*

Moving onto basic matters of the forum i come with a paradox to answer your paradox, we all agree that a table is similar to a map correct? it should have a certain lengths and widths to it but for this circumstance we will assume 6 long and 4 wide.

If you are properly playing the relic mission then you will need to place your token directly at middle of the map 2 feet down from the top 3 feet deep from the side. so we will call that POINT X for the sake of this argument.

While i agree that you can have an active model parked on Point X and keep the enemy at bay, i am fundamentally disagreeing that it's wreckage could keep anything in the year 40,000 at bay much longer than a few moments if not being piloted. This is just a statement of my opinion i still have a concept which should help explain my point via the rules a bit.

First let's go ahead and read up on pg 74 under "wrecked vehicles"

... Wrecked Vechiles are left on the table and EFFECTIVELY BECOME A PIECE OF TERRAIN (conferring a 5+ cover save), counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain. Players must clearly mark a vehicle has been wrecked in a way they consider suitable. FOR EXAMPLE THEY CAN TURN THE VEHICLE, OR JUST ITS TURRET UPSIDE DOWN ..."

Please note, before continuing in this situation we will read verbatim about wreckage in the Battlefield Debris pg. 105 (last entry bottom right)

Wreckage and rubble ARE AREA TERRAIN. If a model is in cover behind wreckage or rubble it has a 4+ cover save.

This rule is for pre-established wrecks on the table but clearly you can see how this could resolve all issues with this TFG conceptualization. I would submit that it is more fair to allow a wrecked vehcile ontop of a primary objective to now adapt the Wreckage rule to allow the whole purpose of the match to remain relevant.

and there you have it 2 simple ways to say STFU to someone trying this BS. One would be finding an acceptable means to both players to adjust the vehicle or simply giving it the wreckage battlefield rules ontop of normal wrecked rules. If not you are not allowing for proper gameplay and truly are just TFG.