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2012/11/17 00:03:44
Subject: Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Testify wrote: Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.
You would be very very wrong.
Yes that is complete bollocks. If you think cannabis has no relation to crime in the UK you're pretty naive.
It's not naive. Money has everything to do with crime in the UK, US, or anywhere for that matter. It has little to do with the drugs themselves, just the fact that you can grow 6-8 plants in your basement and reliably pull in 4-5 thousand every 3 months from it. If you could do that from bootleg DVD sales then organized crime would be copying DVDs. Your opinion is holdover from the Reefer Madness/ DARE days where drug addled fiends rob old ladies to get their next fix. Its purely money. Nothing else.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relapse wrote: People that don't think pot is the cause of a lot of the violence in Mexico are also wrong:
Relapse wrote: Most Latinos I know blame drug users for financing the cartels in Mexico and parts south. Several found themselves faced with the decision of staying and putting themselves and their families at risk of getting killed or move to the U.S. For a safer life.
The cartels are also moving more and more into this country and setting up shop to increase profits by eliminating having to smuggle drugs.
It doesn't take a lot of google searching to arrive at the conclusion that drug users are in large part to blame for the killing going on down in Mexico.
But in all fairness, they wouldn't have the money or incentive to buy all those guns without drug sales.
So how could we possibly take the money away from them? How did we take the money away from the runrunners and gangsters of the 30's again?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if we really wanted to get into stats about crimes being committed under the influence I can guarantee you by a huge margin its alcohol. Fights, robberies, motor vehicle deaths, child abuse, spousal abuse, you name it. Number one substance involved is alcohol. Not coke. Not heroin. Not pot. Alcohol.
But thats cheaply available at every corner store within walking distance to most of the population.
Go figure.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/17 00:08:29
2012/11/17 00:21:31
Subject: Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Dutch, I honestly don't see how we can take the money away from them. I just subscribe to the knowledge that the demand for various drugs that they are all to willing to commit murder to supply is to blame for 99% ofo the killing going on down there.
2012/11/17 00:24:53
Subject: Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Honestly? Yes. I would like to see a world where drug users aren't relegated to the scum of the earth. I would like to see regulated drug dispensing centers where drugs are sold at safe amounts to adults that meet certain requirements with a barrage of help and information about these drugs being a precursor to anytime you buy said drugs.
This is also a pipe dream. It also probably would never work for many reasons.
I also know that much like lowering the drinking age to 18 it would be horrible. It should be though, honestly. But we as a culture put ourselves where we are. Partly because the minute we found out about drugs en masse they were instantly locked away and became a forbidden fruit.
Do you see drugs ever going away? Mankind has been trying to get fethed up ever since we realized the world. Thats not gonna change. But I do think that through understanding, compassion, and most of all education we can change the negative aspects of all drugs.
I'm pretty sure having a cannabis farm is far from being crime free. There are gangs fighting over it. There is violence associated with cannabis and it's culture. Use of cannabis contributes towards crime and a host of other issues..
Thats because its illegal and anything on the black market has grossly inflated prices. If it was legal all the criminality associated with cannabis production and supply would vanish/transfer onto something else. As it is the profit margins arn't all that high and as such there isn't all that violence associated with the pot trade. It exists of course, but its quite low key from what I have been told.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2012/11/17 03:45:38
Subject: Re:Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, the thing is a real weed farm is hidden in the hills and the growers will see you before you see them. And they will shoot you first.
If I was a professional weed grower I wouldn't go around shooting people.
No. But a good percentage of those people on your bus do enjoy drugs. Coke, Marijuana, Meth, Caffeine, Alcohol, Prescriptions, stop me here if Im wrong but Im sure most will fit into at least one of those drugs.
2012/11/17 04:57:32
Subject: Re:Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
I work in the medical field and what I can tell you is that to legalize pot would mean nothing and I highly doubt that it causes crime in other countries which it is grown. As a person who can prescirbe narcotics with the swipe of the pen it is easier for a drug addict to get a vial full of percocet or oxycontin from a authorized precriber and those prescribed drugs cause more deaths in the country which they were prescribed. You will rarely hear about people killing one another for pot. People in the cities where I live and where I gre up are killing one another for the prescription drugs.
The black rage is within us all. Lies offer no shield against the inevitable. You speak of donning the black of duty for the red of brotherhood; but it is the black of rage you shall wear when the darkness comes for you.
2012/11/17 06:32:07
Subject: Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
No. But a good percentage of those people on your bus do enjoy drugs. Coke, Marijuana, Meth, Caffeine, Alcohol, Prescriptions, stop me here if Im wrong but Im sure most will fit into at least one of those drugs.
Forgive me, but the relevance of this post is lost to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Generalstoner wrote: I work in the medical field and what I can tell you is that to legalize pot would mean nothing and I highly doubt that it causes crime in other countries which it is grown. As a person who can prescirbe narcotics with the swipe of the pen it is easier for a drug addict to get a vial full of percocet or oxycontin from a authorized precriber and those prescribed drugs cause more deaths in the country which they were prescribed. You will rarely hear about people killing one another for pot. People in the cities where I live and where I gre up are killing one another for the prescription drugs.
I think the fact that people in Mexico aren't sewing human faces onto soccer balls over percocet is a salient point.
The pharmaceutical industry sucks. This is a separate issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/17 06:34:35
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2012/11/17 06:46:04
Subject: Re:Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
People get killed over Pot out here in Cali.
You can't go hiking in Humbolt or Marin anymore without the risk of some growers taking a shot at you.
They have good motivation to shoot you. They don't want to risk getting exposed to Law Enforcement.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Testify wrote: Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.
You would be very very wrong.
Yes that is complete bollocks. If you think cannabis has no relation to crime in the UK you're pretty naive.
It's not naive. Money has everything to do with crime in the UK, US, or anywhere for that matter. It has little to do with the drugs themselves, just the fact that you can grow 6-8 plants in your basement and reliably pull in 4-5 thousand every 3 months from it. If you could do that from bootleg DVD sales then organized crime would be copying DVDs. Your opinion is holdover from the Reefer Madness/ DARE days where drug addled fiends rob old ladies to get their next fix. Its purely money. Nothing else.
No. I wasn't talking about drug addled friends robbing old laddies, try reading to original post and understanding the context of mine. So criminals make money from other vices too? No gak sherlock. I was responding to someone who stated "Cannabis is pretty crime free", that is naive. Whether that is a point for or against the legalisation of the drug is another issue and not something I commented on.
Testify needs to understand that his crime free weed he buys from that friendly student has come through a chain of people. He needs to ask himself what those people do when they don't get paid. Because they are not calling the police.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/17 07:31:39
2012/11/17 07:39:53
Subject: Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Like most of the gang violence of the 1930's, that was one group of thugs killing another group of thugs. They largly left the civilian population out of it. (Not totally, by any stretch. No few innocent bystanders caught stray rounds meant for other gansters. But the deliberate targeting of civilians was rare.)
As a result, the civilian population largely turned a blind eye to the activities of the gangs. In many cases bank robbers were considered heroes; people who had lost everything to the bank - or everthing IN the bank when it collapsed - weren't about to shed any tears when a bank got robbed, and the bank robber would at least put the money back into circulation.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2012/11/17 07:43:38
Subject: Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Eilif wrote: IAll this to say, what responsibility do you think U.S. drug users (who the stats tell us are fairly evenly distributed across income, race and geographic groups) and their money bear for the violence in the countries that grow and transit illegal drugs?
Yes, but we don't care about the people in those places. Like, at all.
And it's kind of a hard to support that line of thinking, anyway. Unless you go out to the middle of nowhere, start a farm, live off the land, and try never to interact with another human at all, at some point someone is destroying the world and/or doing violence on your behalf to bring you the stuff you want or need. That's just the way it is. The best you can do is be thankful for how lucky you are for the things you have and pick the level of acceptable self-delusion you are comfortable with regarding the consequences of your appetite.
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Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2012/11/17 08:08:58
Subject: Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Forgive me, but the relevance of this post is lost to me.
He may be trying to establish a moral majority, and then draw attention to the relative cognitive dissonance resulting from a democracy that does not follow the wishes of it's moral majority.
"Jerry spent some time in Michigan
A twenty year vacation, after all he had a dime
A dime is worth a lot more in Detroit
A dime in California, a twenty dollar fine"
Narcotics politics have two parts. Common public good, and backdoor dealings.
But personally I don't think the Drug War had much fatal side effects to Americans when compared to the Volstead Act in the 20s. Thanks to a tightened american law enforcement bureaucracy.
daedalus wrote: If anything, the US government bears as much responsibility for keeping it illegal. If Joe Average wants some pot, it's their fault he has to turn to the black market rather than being able to openly grow some in his backyard.
And no, before I get rushed by the moral absolutists, I don't do drugs, but I have zero problems with people who do, so long as they're not hurting anyone else in the direct process.
1. or do you think that American cops still being as corrupt as they was when Al Capone was a Kingpin?
2. Narcotics are so dangerous and i've been intensively educated that way, so I don't do drugs too! But dating a hot white (and p'rhaps, tattooed) modelswoman who occasionally takin' pills is still okay as long as she 'fill my needs' =^.^=
Like most of the gang violence of the 1930's, that was one group of thugs killing another group of thugs. They largly left the civilian population out of it. (Not totally, by any stretch. No few innocent bystanders caught stray rounds meant for other gansters. But the deliberate targeting of civilians was rare.)
As a result, the civilian population largely turned a blind eye to the activities of the gangs. In many cases bank robbers were considered heroes; people who had lost everything to the bank - or everthing IN the bank when it collapsed - weren't about to shed any tears when a bank got robbed, and the bank robber would at least put the money back into circulation.
And did the robbers part of any well-established gangsters of any creed? did the Mafia rob the bank too? didn't they earn enough cashes on smuggling operations and brothels? meow.
Generalstoner wrote: I work in the medical field and what I can tell you is that to legalize pot would mean nothing and I highly doubt that it causes crime in other countries which it is grown. As a person who can prescirbe narcotics with the swipe of the pen it is easier for a drug addict to get a vial full of percocet or oxycontin from a authorized precriber and those prescribed drugs cause more deaths in the country which they were prescribed. You will rarely hear about people killing one another for pot. People in the cities where I live and where I gre up are killing one another for the prescription drugs.
I think the fact that people in Mexico aren't sewing human faces onto soccer balls over percocet is a salient point.
The pharmaceutical industry sucks. This is a separate issue.
I assure you a sizable portion of the Mexican drug trade involves illicit pharmaceuticals. Doctors in America aren't the only way to get oxy's. Pretty much anyone can walk into a drug store in Mexico and walk out with whatever you want, and a lot of that is being smuggled across the border.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/17 15:25:35
2012/11/17 15:27:16
Subject: Re:Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Generalstoner wrote: I work in the medical field and what I can tell you is that to legalize pot would mean nothing and I highly doubt that it causes crime in other countries which it is grown. As a person who can prescirbe narcotics with the swipe of the pen it is easier for a drug addict to get a vial full of percocet or oxycontin from a authorized precriber and those prescribed drugs cause more deaths in the country which they were prescribed. You will rarely hear about people killing one another for pot. People in the cities where I live and where I gre up are killing one another for the prescription drugs.
So 30,000 plus people a year in Mexico are getting killed just for the hell of it?
2012/11/17 15:30:38
Subject: Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Saying American drug users are responsible for crime in other countries is just dumb. Are you responsible for Chinese slave labor with all your Iphones? Are you responsible for children in sweatshops because you just had to get another pair of Nikes?
To put blame on one group and not on yourself is just foolish. Buying almost anything can cause your money to go to something you don't believe in. Thats why you transferred your money for a good. What the seller does with your money isn't your concern.
2012/11/17 15:35:01
Subject: Re:Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Saying American drug users are responsible for crime in other countries is just dumb. Are you responsible for Chinese slave labor with all your Iphones? Are you responsible for children in sweatshops because you just had to get another pair of Nikes?
Many people feel at least some responsibility for the harm done by companies they give money to. This is why boycotts exist. I know people who refuse to buy clothing made overseas in sweatshops, and instead buy only from companies who use first-world labor.
A lot of people genuinely DO care about this stuff; which is why the investigations into Foxconn in China were kind of a big deal, because a fair number of Apple customers would care if actual slave labor were involved.
Generalstoner wrote: I work in the medical field and what I can tell you is that to legalize pot would mean nothing and I highly doubt that it causes crime in other countries which it is grown. As a person who can prescirbe narcotics with the swipe of the pen it is easier for a drug addict to get a vial full of percocet or oxycontin from a authorized precriber and those prescribed drugs cause more deaths in the country which they were prescribed. You will rarely hear about people killing one another for pot. People in the cities where I live and where I gre up are killing one another for the prescription drugs.
So 30,000 plus people a year in Mexico are getting killed just for the hell of it?
No. They're getting killed for control of a criminal (and thus highly profitable, due to scarcity) product.
If it were decriminalized, we'd likely see results like we did after the Volstead Act went away; and violence over production and distribution of alcohol stopped.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volstead_Act
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/17 15:38:52
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Yes. Yes they do. The adult thing would be to admit it to yourself, and subsequently, that you don't care.
Would you say that they're more or less responsible than gasoline users?
He may be biased, but then again, we openly accept Infowars as a source for a topic of discussion around here, so I'm dropping it anyway.
This could be good subject matter for another thread. This one is about how people don't care about their recreational drug use being the cause of thousands of people a year getting killed in Mexico, Cental and South America.
2012/11/17 15:46:19
Subject: Do American drug users bear responsibility for drug violence in producer/transit countries?
Manny I get that some people do care. But the majority don't. Its only a fringe group that really worries about where all their clothing, food, electronics, home goods, etc. come from. Its a commendable thing, but its very few people honestly.
Has anyone ever shopped at Wal-Mart? Yeah your money probably went into something detestable. But somehow drug users are worse? Why? Because we've been indoctrinated to think so? If its purely the death aspect, than any one of the Defense industries whose bomb missed the target and killed civilians is even worse.
