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I've been thinking about this for a while. Despite being a musician and a rock climber (if you're one of these, you'll know what why this is a surprise) I've never smoked pot. As a kid it was a strait-laced "pot-is-bad" mentality. Now that I've grown older and somewhat more liberal it's partially because of legality, but mostly because I don't want to put a single dollar in the hands of the Narco-barons that commit atrocities all over Mexico and Central America in the form of kidnappings (of both rich and migrant workers) mass murders, assasinations, etc. Organizations that often make more money for the sale of drugs to the USA than the -now largely ineffective- governments in the country they operate out of.

I realize that the American Drug War and insistence on low-tolerance laws has made these substances valuable, illicit and created the opportunities for the drug lords, but I still feel chagrined when a kid in a Che t-shirt will talk about standing up for the worker and the oppressed one minute and in the next marvel about the wonders of the marijuana that he bought (third hand...) from some of the worst human rights abusers on the planet.

All this to say, what responsibility do you think U.S. drug users (who the stats tell us are fairly evenly distributed across income, race and geographic groups) and their money bear for the violence in the countries that grow and transit illegal drugs?

As an aside, the wife and I may be planning a trip to Colorado soon where the pot is controlled, taxed, grown locally, now legal (mostly) and reportedly of high quality!

I would say only as much as those who buy gasoline help fuel terrorism.

If anything, the US government bears as much responsibility for keeping it illegal. If Joe Average wants some pot, it's their fault he has to turn to the black market rather than being able to openly grow some in his backyard.

And no, before I get rushed by the moral absolutists, I don't do drugs, but I have zero problems with people who do, so long as they're not hurting anyone else in the direct process.

Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.

 Testify wrote:
Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.

You would be very very wrong.

From what I understand, from growing up in a fairly famous Pot growing region of the US (Oregon and the Pacific Northwest for those interested) the Pot industry is not really the one to "blame" for the drug wars or many problems...

There are those, I know, who would say that pot is the gateway drug, and that ALL people who smoke pot are going to branch into coke, heroine and meth, etc. (which to me is a load of bollocks, as I know that there are many out there who can and have maintained self control enough to keep things at pot)

I think that many of the "stronger" drugs do carry some more of the blame. To me, this is because, to my knowledge we don't or aren't able to grow the plant that makes cocaine or heroine, etc. We have to rely on other countries whose climates are more able to sustain those things. So yeah, I think that people do do the so called, hard drugs do fuel the drug wars, but if we single out cannabis, I don't think that particular brings much to the "fight".


I also think that, were the US to legalize, and strictly control, license and regulate the sale and use of certain drugs, it would do a great deal to alleviate some of the pressures of the drug war.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.

You would be very very wrong.

That surprises me. Given how spread out the United States is I'm surprised local operations are not more widespread. If I lived in a large American city (pick one) I could get a small factory/warehouse unit in a quiet place 30 or 40 miles away, plant 100 or so seeds with some UV lights, and use my connections in the city to sell it. It would cost me far, far less than importing it from Mexico, and carries far less risk. Put it this way, people in the UK grow cannabis in crowded terraced houses for years and no one figures. A secure warehouse could go undetected for decades.

Is there something about the States that would make this unfeasable or wrong?

 Testify wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.

You would be very very wrong.

That surprises me. Given how spread out the United States is I'm surprised local operations are not more widespread. If I lived in a large American city (pick one) I could get a small factory/warehouse unit in a quiet place 30 or 40 miles away, plant 100 or so seeds with some UV lights, and use my connections in the city to sell it. It would cost me far, far less than importing it from Mexico, and carries far less risk. Put it this way, people in the UK grow cannabis in crowded terraced houses for years and no one figures. A secure warehouse could go undetected for decades.

Is there something about the States that would make this unfeasable or wrong?

Power Grid... because of how anti-pot people are, the drug task forces (at least in the Cleveland area) look for korean* families that buy up 3 houses next to each other, and then create a grow-op in the basement of the central house and use the power from the three houses to "mask" the power usage for their growing.

*Note: Korean drug operations were the last big bust in the Cleveland area.

Given that it is Illegal to grow Cannibis that kinda puts a wrench in the works.

Even in states that allow medical growing and posession, you are limited in what you can grow. A handful of plants is all medical users are allowed. Anything larger is illegal.


Plus if you are growing a large quantity, you make yourself a target not only for the Cops but also the local drug lords. The drug lords hate competition, they WILL kill you, your family, and your dog over some weed.

Its also more convenient to just buy your weed from the local supplier then it is to set up your own plants. UV lights arn't exactly cheap and the growing area takes up space. Plus the annoyance of having to hide the operation.


And all legalizing the drug will do is make it harder to distinguish between legal and illegal weed. people under the legal age will still have to get busted, and then there is the tax issue. The cartels will still smuggle weed in and sell it as a cheaper alternative to the legal stuff.


And it all eventually goes to the violence in Mexico and other places. The Drug Lords have set themselves up as rules in their own little areas and rule with an ironfist.

 Testify wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.

You would be very very wrong.

That surprises me. Given how spread out the United States is I'm surprised local operations are not more widespread. If I lived in a large American city (pick one) I could get a small factory/warehouse unit in a quiet place 30 or 40 miles away, plant 100 or so seeds with some UV lights, and use my connections in the city to sell it. It would cost me far, far less than importing it from Mexico, and carries far less risk. Put it this way, people in the UK grow cannabis in crowded terraced houses for years and no one figures. A secure warehouse could go undetected for decades.

Is there something about the States that would make this unfeasable or wrong?

I think you underestimate the demand of weed in the US. We have a lot of local growers, but even they cannot meet the demand without risking their operation being found.

That is from what I have seen in my area though. With two states being completely legal now, things may begin to shift in a big way. I have already noticed some changes.

 Testify wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.

You would be very very wrong.

That surprises me. Given how spread out the United States is I'm surprised local operations are not more widespread. If I lived in a large American city (pick one) I could get a small factory/warehouse unit in a quiet place 30 or 40 miles away, plant 100 or so seeds with some UV lights, and use my connections in the city to sell it. It would cost me far, far less than importing it from Mexico, and carries far less risk. Put it this way, people in the UK grow cannabis in crowded terraced houses for years and no one figures. A secure warehouse could go undetected for decades.

Is there something about the States that would make this unfeasable or wrong?

Missouri used to the the king of Pot production... just throw out the seeds among the brushes.. then harvest.

But.. now... not so much. The kingpins have moved on to Meth production.

We still have issues with "Smurfing" around here... bastich.. I can only get sudaphed behind the Rx counters...

 daedalus wrote:
I would say only as much as those who buy gasoline help fuel terrorism.

If anything, the US government bears as much responsibility for keeping it illegal. If Joe Average wants some pot, it's their fault he has to turn to the black market rather than being able to openly grow some in his backyard.

And no, before I get rushed by the moral absolutists, I don't do drugs, but I have zero problems with people who do, so long as they're not hurting anyone else in the direct process.

Quoted for truth, it's also hard to hold people responsible for the actions of others, because while there might be influence, they still choose to do it.

No more than buying a T-shirt supports child labour.

Or a chicken sandwhich supports bans on gay marriage?

But of a poser this one. I would say that if you buy say coke then you do kind of have to share some of the blame, even if I don't think you are directly culpable.

On the whole I would say that I'm a Libertarian when it comes to drugs in that I think they should be legal and if they where allot less harm would be caused by them. However whilst it remains illegal I think people should be wary of what they take and be aware of where it comes from. By all means campaign for it to be legal, I'll support you all the way. But don't just snort it and pretend you don't know about the bodies.

As for pot, well my pot smoking days are long behind me but I only ever bought from friends who I knew where on the whole decent people. I knew a few unsavory characters who as well as being dealers where toerags in general and I never bought from them.

On the whole I have no issue with home growing operations. In fact I think it would be sensible if it was made legal to 'grow your own' tomorrow. Anything that helps stop the demand for black market drugs is a good thing.

There's a big difference between supporting traditional marriage and fueling money to drug violence in mexico.

Stuff drugs, as others have said they fund other behaviour and wreck lives of people due to money issues.

I have thought about selling them to saps though for monies. Dangerous ish but making 150k plus where I live, or millions if selling the big stuff.

One big guy near here is uber rich from it everyone knows how he got the money but he's not directly linked and they "hire" his service to transfer the money.

 Testify wrote:
Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.

I'm pretty sure having a cannabis farm is far from being crime free.
There are gangs fighting over it. There is violence associated with cannabis and it's culture. Use of cannabis contributes towards crime and a host of other issues.

I have been ambivalent towards cannabis use, though experience is making me veer towards saying no full stop.

More OT I would think that users and an ignorant population bear some responsibility.

I saw a cannabis farm that had guns, electric door knobs and knuckle dusters, the crop was over £2 million drugs are big mobney and big illegal money means fighting, your not going to phone the police to say someone tried to burgle my weed farm...

 InquisitorVaron wrote:
I saw a cannabis farm that had guns, electric door knobs and knuckle dusters, the crop was over £2 million drugs are big mobney and big illegal money means fighting, your not going to phone the police to say someone tried to burgle my weed farm...

Are you sure you saw that?

On TV not in real life, unless it comforts you to think I could be a scheming gun smuggling murderous drug baron.

I actually sound badass when put like that.

 InquisitorVaron wrote:
On TV not in real life, unless it comforts you to think I could be a scheming gun smuggling murderous drug baron.

I actually sound badass when put like that.

No, you don't.

Yeah, the thing is a real weed farm is hidden in the hills and the growers will see you before you see them. And they will shoot you first.

In america mabye, ours have farmers who are illegal immigrants who tend to the crop and are set up with UV lights and heat dampeners to stop thermal imaging helicoptors from finding the farms.

My definition of badass is your bad enough to be put in prision but not so scary that people won't try to bum you. Perhaps that's how the word came into being. #lolftwepicthrowupinmouthforushinghastagreferences


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Bah all I wrote is insebsible drivel disregard it


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Insensible. Damn this phone.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/lanl/funding_terror.pdf

Something written by the Air Force Air University regarding the topic.

Most Latinos I know blame drug users for financing the cartels in Mexico and parts south. Several found themselves faced with the decision of staying and putting themselves and their families at risk of getting killed or move to the U.S. For a safer life.
The cartels are also moving more and more into this country and setting up shop to increase profits by eliminating having to smuggle drugs.
It doesn't take a lot of google searching to arrive at the conclusion that drug users are in large part to blame for the killing going on down in Mexico.

You want to see how ineffective the drug war has been? Look at prohibition doing nothing but escalate organized crime over alcohol. Prohibition did nothing to prevent alcoholism, crime, murder, or - to an extent- even public health.

People don't realize that drugs themselves really aren't always the problem - it's people. People create situations in their lives and others that make escape from reality an appealing option. If the US really wanted to fight a war on drugs, they'd put their money in programs that would prevent people from abusing them. Alcohol, marijuana, shrooms, and MDMA themselves are not potently addictive substances - those who become addicted are usually socially addicted (use with friends - friends leave and the individual continues alone.) but all have adverse effects on the body - as do any drugs (prescription or otherwise) that alter the body's chemistry.

Alcohol and tobacco are the two greatest killers in the US - yet they remain legal not because the US has thrown vast amounts of money at the issues, they absolutely destroyed the tobacco industry and rightly so, not because the population of the US raised enough money to combat the lobbyists in congress, but because they accepted the general consensus that smoking is horrible for your health.

Now, 70% of people who smoke - even those who are addicted - want to quit, and the companies are paying through the nose to render healthcare costs for their carcinogenic products. To alleviate their costs, they've moved to the unregulated markets of... basically the rest of the world... and are selling back to these countries where our illegal drugs are coming from - where there are murders, rapes, kidnappings, mutilations, amputations, tortures and other unspeakable atrocities - killing as many if not more innocents the drug cartels prey upon with cancers, respiratory disorders, and cardiovascular problems that can be treated here in the states, but are in no way even remotely affordable for these developing nations.

Makes you not really want to live on this planet anymore when you realize that the war on drugs really isn't just a name.

Good luck on the Colorado trip Its going to be a while before anyone can just walk in and procure said dried plant material.

Dont worry just wait enough years and we'll glorify the Mexican narcos like we did the rum-runners and eventually elect one President. We're do for a Catholic really.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Cannabis is pretty crime free. In the UK it's grown in houses that are converted to cannabis farms, pretty high intensively. There are no gangs or wars over it though. I'd be surprised if there were in the States, given how easy that gak is to grow.

You would be very very wrong.

Yes that is complete bollocks. If you think cannabis has no relation to crime in the UK you're pretty naive.

Relapse wrote:
Most Latinos I know blame drug users for financing the cartels in Mexico and parts south. Several found themselves faced with the decision of staying and putting themselves and their families at risk of getting killed or move to the U.S. For a safer life.
The cartels are also moving more and more into this country and setting up shop to increase profits by eliminating having to smuggle drugs.
It doesn't take a lot of google searching to arrive at the conclusion that drug users are in large part to blame for the killing going on down in Mexico.

Same could be said of the guns that are doing the actual shooting that are coming from? Oh yeah America. So they're just as culpable.

People that don't think pot is the cause of a lot of the violence in Mexico are also wrong:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/03/man-charged-with-building-2-major-drug-tunnels-connecting-mexico-and-california/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/14/drug-tunnels_n_1673317.html


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 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Most Latinos I know blame drug users for financing the cartels in Mexico and parts south. Several found themselves faced with the decision of staying and putting themselves and their families at risk of getting killed or move to the U.S. For a safer life.
The cartels are also moving more and more into this country and setting up shop to increase profits by eliminating having to smuggle drugs.
It doesn't take a lot of google searching to arrive at the conclusion that drug users are in large part to blame for the killing going on down in Mexico.

Same could be said of the guns that are doing the actual shooting that are coming from? Oh yeah America. So they're just as culpable.

But in all fairness, they wouldn't have the money or incentive to buy all those guns without drug sales.