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What are your thoughts on kickstarter?
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Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm

Riverside CA

My only problem is that every Kickstart that come out seems to start a week into the month and ends before the end of the month.
I am on a fixed income and get paid on the 1st of the month.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut

Pittsboro NC (Raleigh)

Not Penny Stock, so no future rewards for investor, but the same risks as Penny Stock;
No future rewards offered is basically Begging for money, with the promise of paying it back in trade. (like a deadbeat brother in law).
Myself, like many others are still waiting for the Deadzone orders from Mantic (due in December) to be completely filled, and it is almost March...
There are many other avenues to get "your idea" out there as a company, kickstarter is just the new Pink....

Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus

Boskydell, IL

Love it for wargaming! We get great third party minis at reasonable prices. Can't beat that. Of course, it opens the door for some predatory business practices. (The Limited Run con is the preferred one here, it seems.)

Hate it for RPG supplements. All the ones I've seen so far offer a high-tier 'reward' where the donor gets to write material for the supplement. When people are cutting each other's throats to make it as writers, especially as writers in the games industry, it seems incredibly predatory to do this. It's essentially telling aspiring writers that if they give you a thousand bucks, they can have a writing credit. The horrible part is that there's many writers who will happily do it. (If I'd ever had the cash to burn when I saw these come up, I might have done it myself!)

Companies that do this earn my everlasting disdain, and virtually guarantee that they will never get another penny from me.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
Made in gb
Elite Tyranid Warrior

West Midlands, UK

And just got an email informing me that kickstarter has just got over $1 billion invested, so that's pretty damn good!

Made in us
Sword Knight

They are good for wargaming since they let small studios get their games off the ground, but for things like video games they're bad.

Made in us

Garden Grove, CA

I feel like this is going to over saturate the wargaming scene. Too many companies in too short a time with not enough consistent support.

If the company has already been established then by all means go ahead and use it

EDIT: This is in regard to brand new games, not third party miniatures for already well-known games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/23 18:58:49

Made in gb
Drone without a Controller

Derby UK

I think it could work fantasticly well. But only for the right idea and probably only for a company or a individual trusted enough!

gue'la aux commander reporting for the greater good shas'o  
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut

It's still the best thing out there for people with ideas but...I don't like what it's become.

I much preferred the simple crowd funding site where if you though a product had merit then you could donate money to help someone/group get the product to market.

Now it's simply a mass marketed prototyping pre-order site where if I don't get something for my money I may not invest. It's become "how much can I get for my money." Just another shopping experience.

Disclaimer: this is not directed at anyone in particular, just the overall feel of the campaigns and what I've gathered from 3rd party commentary of funders and fundees.

1500 Dark Angels( 9 - 4 - 0 )
Humility must always be the portion of any man who receives acclaim earned in the blood of his followers and the sacrifices of his friends.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge

Richmond Canada

Very good for wargaming, anything that helps bring better terrain is good for the games!
I am in on Deadzone wave1 and wave2
Battlesystems - imminent delivery?
Maki - imminent delivery?

Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant

It's amazing for wargaming and it is nice to see smaller companies get the funds they need to make our games better for everybody.

“We're not in Wonderland anymore Alice.”
Charles Manson. 
Made in gb
Been Around the Block

I was initially thinking it was a good thing, but over time I'm seeing it as very much a problem. Companies like Mantic do not even seem to be trying to do things on their own. They toss every product on kickstarter having supporters foot the bill at their own risk.

As said earlier, the market is going to become saturated to the point where you pick up one game, get it assembled and painted, then suddenly something new is out.

I think it's also bad for shops that sell these games. With the cheap deals and preorders you can do, it is debatable whether it is worth FLGS while to stock them. A prime example of this is the FLGS in my area and Dreadball. Kickstarter got people interested in Dreadball and lots of people purchased as lot of product. But when it came to release and shops stocking the product, the FLGS has so much stock sitting there because people got all they wanted from the kickstarter anyway.

I accept that this may be an unusual situation, but it is still happening.
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut

I think it's great for brand new, tiny companies that otherwise wouldn't get a shot. Do a crowdfunding thing, and then your game can fail or succeed on its own merits, instead of being DOA. But when established companies turn to it to keep afloat... that's less stellar.
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot

In a chair, staring at a screen

Not necessarily good for wargaming, but good for other things

1500 pts
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought


I think it is VERY good for people with good ideas to make them a reality.
Many of us gamers easily see niche things that need to be made.

I think the biggest challenge is getting kickstarter the company / organization to force categorizing the people / groups flogging their ideas.

Companies looking to have their projects funded rather than with their own money (a really early pre-order) are most in need.

Multi-stage projects are becoming a norm (we ship some of your stuff now, then the rest...um... "soon".) where sending out some rewards seems to give license to drag the project on forever.
There should be some consequence of not closing the kickstarter.
Possibly a means of preventing another one being opened until an old one is closed perhaps.

There are the usual out and out scams which will need to be aggressively fought over to prevent customer confidence being lost.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte

Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman

What is kickstarter?

2000pts (ish)
Made in ca
Khorne Rhino Driver with Destroyer

Ontario, Canada

I think it is good in the sense that some new developers have a shot at getting there product out there. Who knows, it could be a huge hit.

I think it is bad in the sense that it can be used by companies to make money. Examples that i know are were one where it was used to make money buy a painting company, also another being a group that used it a couple times to fund projects, made a bunch of money, didn't follow through, but the money was used for personal things.

Blog For Average dudes, by an average dude: http://averagehobbyist.blogspot.ca  
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut

Saratoga Springs, NY

It is kind of annoying how about 75% of the "other games" forum is now posts that basically summarize to "Support this kickstarter!" I kind of feel like it stretches out the available funding such that the few good ideas don't get as much support as they should since they are burred under the weight of many many more stupid ideas. Overall I'm going neutral here because it allows some good stuff through, but at the same time saturates the market with a lot of stuff that is bad or will never be done.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/01 07:33:11

Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!

BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.

Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
Made in bg
Cosmic Joe


 dementedwombat wrote:
It is kind of annoying how about 75% of the "other games" forum is now posts that basically summarize to "Support this kickstarter!" I kind of feel like it stretches out the available funding such that the few good ideas don't get as much support as they should since they are burred under the weight of many many more stupid ideas. Overall I'm going neutral here because it allows some good stuff through, but at the same time saturates the market with a lot of stuff that is bad or will never be done.

Don't worry you'll get used to it, those of us who also game on PC have learned to sift through the early axcess garbage to find the diamonds in the rough.

Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
Made in us
Dakka Veteran

Miles City, MT

Kickstarters can be great for this hobby. They let the small person produce and innovate. However, there are also scams and large companies that take advantage of it to get money from people. Also, some products aren't as great as what they appear to be at first. If you can navigate your way through the junk and find the good stuff there, kickstarters can be very good. Overall i would say atm they are neutral with the potential to be great.

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut

In general I don't see a lot of completely new artists breaking in and building a company with them.

I see sort of starter-company level people launching sort of into the next quality tiers for the products they want to make, and in general I find it very useful that way, to boost the quality in the market.

For instance. Tablescapes. Guy still did stuff, but it sort of boosted him into being able to make the next grade of quality up, from his baseline faster.

You've definitely gotta try to develop a smell test though, for what you think people can actually offer, and whether they can deliver.

In general I think its a side-grade that creates new options but ultimately only has a slight positive impact on the industry. Its just a new tool for a market to interact with producers, and its just a little more utility in the tool belt for that relationship to be more efficient. Its not a fix all, and its got problems.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/02 06:05:01

Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought


 HoverBoy wrote:
Don't worry you'll get used to it, those of us who also game on PC have learned to sift through the early axcess garbage to find the diamonds in the rough.
That is a rather good comparison.
My biggest complaint with "Steam" before was the masking of "early access" programs in with the full release ones: you would not know till you opened that store page.
I just wanted a filter so you did not waste your time looking at incomplete programs when you wanted a full game to play.

Kickstarter needs a similar filter more around the line of large company offerings vs. "garage" type.
What would be even better is kickstarters that have a physical / working prototype vs. sketches / 3d models only that could be similarly filtered.

My thoughts on kickstarter is that it is a fantastic means of promoting innovation, it gives real hope for the home inventor to have their creation judged by the potential consumers than some faceless organization. It would be interesting to see if it could be used for say your favorite band putting out their next album and getting more money into their pockets.

There is a great deal of potential here, the only worry is it still seems foolish to commit money up-front with no guarantee of a good product and many would say "you should be happy it got made at all!" and my reply would be "If it was a good idea, it would be sold without the use of a kickstarter."

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte

Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc

Orem, Utah

I think that Kickstarter, on the whole, is a good thing. There are some bad points to it.

The Good
- Smaller companies, startups get a green light.
- Larger companies get product to market faster, and in some cases, better.
- Riskier projects can be tested- allowing bad ideas to fail before too much capital was invested, and good ideas to flourish when no one would take the risk.
- Following a KS that you're excited about is fun, and a neat way to generate excitement and buzz.

The Bad
- Kickstarter Exclusives have become so pervasive with some companies that I'm not sure the person who picks the game up off of the shelf can be said to be playing the same game at all.
- Some scammers, and poor businessmen have used it and not delivered on their promises.
- Kickstarter orders are taken so far before delivery that many products lose their "shiny new toy" well before anyone has them in hand.
- Kickstarter price averages are so low that even good deals often seem overly expensive in comparison. This can be bad, because KS prices aren't viable in the market.

Made in us
Mounted Kroot Tracker

I think it's great for people who like to paint figures (like myself) but bad for people who want to play in a gaming group. Too many games with too many rules systems means you won't find the dozen or so guys in any college town who can agree on the same game to play.

Made in us
Osprey Reader

York, PA USA

I do not really think it is positive in the long term. It is rapidly becoming the new normal. The transition is from people being willing to risk their own money, to people being willing to risk the customers money. I know some companies are broke from one kick starter to the next, and some seem to pay for kick starter 3 or 4 from the proceeds of kick starter 8 or 9.

I have pondered this a lot, as I considered running a kick starter to fund hiring a helper. In the end it is still something that I am not comfortable with yet.

I am pasting a section of my blog post here because it might apply------------->

The real issue is mostly I am in a wait and see mode regarding what to do next. I have a type of ADD which causes me to hyper focus on something. I get interested and really immerse myself in a project. This flies in the face of current market trends. It is no secret to anyone that reads this blog that kick starter is less than my favorite thing. Kick starter is geared toward the other type of ADD person. The stereotypical " Ooh, look a new shiny thing....." type of person. When I was gaming much more than I do now we went through scales and periods with reckless abandon. My ADD requires me to build huge armies, all fully painted and then to prepare extensive campaigns. I build my own Army Builder files if I like a game for crying out loud. This is not the current state of affairs, where I actually have read about people losing interest in a game before it has even been delivered.
I remember dropping a couple of hundred bucks on a Flames of War army, painting the entire thing, and playing ONE time before my friends lost interest and raced on to something else. This frustrated me immensely and ever since then I have steadfastly refused to be drawn in to the new and shiny unless I was certain it had long term potential. Eventually I just lost all interest in the constant cycle of consumption without really taking the time to enjoy the purchases. I want generic stuff that can be used over and over again. ( this is what I try to make also) My goblins have seen combat in at least a dozen different rules sets, having fled in each end every one of them!
Which brings me to kick starter. New products are coming out faster than anything I ever could have imagined. Some of them seem really cool. But my brain has simply gone in to shock and shut down. There is too much stuff. Way too much. My brain is defective and is unable to grasp and understand this much stimuli. I am going to cover my head until this blows over. And it makes no damn sense at all to me.
I think being a wise old person allows me to explain the facts to young people once again.
Years ago we had things called credit cards. The slogan was play now-pay later. You could buy all sorts of things and start enjoying them right away. You could figure out how to pay for it later. I was riding in my old black Mustang and the wheels, tires and Hurst shifter were not even paid for. Who cares? I was enjoying it NOW. I got started at Montgomery Wards with a VHS player. And I was watching movies before I ever even thought about paying for it.

Kick starter lets you pay now and play later. Maybe. Back in the good old days, if you actually got a little carried away with your spending you could hire a lawyer to fill out a couple of forms and file bankruptcy. Then all the payments went a away and you got to keep all your stuff. Some people actually PLANNED this. A couple would have one person run up a fortune and filling the house with all sorts of televisions and other goodies. That person would file bankruptcy and they would get it all for FREE. Then for the next seven years if they needed credit the other person could borrow. After the 7 year period was up the second person would run up huge debts and file bankruptcy, and the first person now had good credit again and they would switch places.
The credit card companies accepted all the risk. The consumer was in the driver's seat and calling the shots.
Compare that to kick starter and you will see a mirror image. Now the consumer is paying up front and taking all the risk. If the project goes bad, the creator walks with a bundle and has no real penalties. Was this the idea all along? Who knows?
Young people have no idea how upside down this is. Seriously, back in my day no one would have agreed to this. Now people do not only agree to it, they PREFER it. Consumers love kick starter and are voting with their dollars. Millions and millions of them.
Companies love it too. It offers better than a reward, it offers a PRE-WARD. It is like dropping a $100 tip before you even get seated at a restaurant.
My brain has been scrambled beyond the capacity for rational conversation.

If you do not fail often you are not tackling big enough challenges. 
Made in ie
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon


Neutral opinion.

I think the idea is great in principle, however the market is already quite saturated with both large established games e.g, 40k, Warmachine, and a countless number of lesser known ranges, many of them Kickstarter projects themselves. So I think it's an uphill struggle from the beginning for any design team trying to get a new game out there, unless they come up with a game that is particularly original, offers a very unique theme, or has high quality models that will be strongly sought after by gamers. Even then success can be effected by bad marketing, and just general difficulty convincing people to buy into it. (A lot of gamers have spent a small fortune on 1 or 2 systems, and have no intention of taking up a 3rd)

I would say there is far more potential for Kickstarters focusing on making alternative kits for certain small numbers of models in 40k (particularly the uglier, blander or more dated models that GW stock).
Or more ambitiously, a range of models covering an entire WFB or 40k army, but offering a different aesthetic.
Lastly there is the option to produce 3rd party bitz like alternate and/or more affordable heads, arms, weapons etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 10:00:57

I let the dogs out 
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut

I'm fine with it.

Reaper Bones III started, and I'm getting even more unique sculptures I'd otherwise never have.

I discovered Terra Tiles, and now I'll have that battle board table I could never afford *or* store away!

One of my favorite "take that" games, Nuclear War, can reprint its OOP expansion.

As for risk, now that more companies *are* reusing KS, you can lower your risk by filtering out the "first project" companies. As for the traditional retailer-distributor chain, I'll let Reaper explain how a business model made in the 1940's can't keep up with today's market -- even before KS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 07:05:06

"And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut

My experience with kickstarter.

Local stores and friends where getting great products produced by kickstarter companies so I decided to give it a try.

Watched a great promo video promising a great product that was featured as a staff pick, reposted on many tech blogs, gamer blogs and they did an impressive ted talk.
They showed a working product, and convinced me that all they needed to to was adding some tweaks for mass production in 2013.
Pledged + paid transport cost.
Received progress mails for months that actually looked promising
Then they send us a mail that the beta testing started and they would start shipping soon. We could buy some extras with discount, I bought those.
Still convinced that I would receive a product in early 2014

Then the "progress mails" became less regular and more scetchy.
I'm still receiving some more "process mails" from time to time each claiming that they are almost finished.
So yeah it can be great if it works but kickstarter is a horrible backwards idea that rewards the best commercial makers regardless if they actually produce the product or not.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/09/08 12:45:52

Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
Made in no
Dakka Veteran

overall it is just good stuff. dealys cannot sadly be prevented and all projects gets a delay.

but every now and then some lesser known creators/produsers will run into some sort of problem sadly.

Collects: 40K;Cult Mechanicus. GF9;Tanks. Flames of War. Wings of Glory. Warmachine. SW Armada. Adeptus Mechanicus. 
Made in us
Scouting Shadow Warrior

South Dakota

Kickstarter is terrible in the long run as companies are using it to sell directly to the customer and circumvent the LGS, this means less revenue for the LGS and a harder time keeping the doors open for us to play.

Best recent example was the Dark Souls Board Game, the creators of the game already had created previous very successful games, they obviouly had the money in the bank to make this game and were only asking for 14,000 to kickstart it.

It's pretty obvious Steamforge games has 14,000 in their bank after their previous successes, so by using kickstarter they were able to bank over a million dollars and completely shut the LGS out of it.

The lion's share of people who were going to get that game already did on KS and very few stragglers will pick it up later at the LGS if and when Steamforge ships to the store level.

EDIT (more thoughts):
Kickstarter should be for young entrepreneurs and amateur developers who really need the help, not for big companies to use as a pre-order/print money on demand system.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/25 14:30:58

"people most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived."

"If you use their table space and attend their events, then you better damn well be supporting your local gaming store instead of Amazon"

2000 Stormcast Eternals
2000 Aelfs
2500 Legions of Nagash
2500 Ultramarines 2nd Company 
Made in gb
Sneaky Kommando

Helps draw fresh faces in.

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