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I find this nid codex (in both editions) comes down to this: If your opponet played nids, you will lose. There are so many weaknesses to the nid codex that people just dont think of because they are not prevalent in most other codexes. Lack of assault grenades is pretty obvious, as is psychic defense, but individual units also have weaknesses.

Ymargl's terrain is specified at the beginning of the game and you can often move around to fill up a bunch of terrain after deployment, often making the whole ymargl unit destroyed.

Tervigon spam runs into problems whenever the opponent can focus fire correctly. If you have ~70 gaunts around 3 tervigons bubble wrapping them, destroying one tervigon means ~60% of those termigaunts are probably going to die. Chances are one of those 3 tervigons will either not have iron arm, fail its psychic check, or roll a 1. If an opponent jumps on that, you can very easily lose a tervigon, breaking the screens and opening up the other tervigons to either be assaulted by dedicated combat units or shot down with no cover.

Flyrants are ~270 points and are the 2nd most expensive FMC in the game (behind fateweaver). Taking one down is simple with grounding. Shoot the storm bolters from vehicles or units like snipers that generally dont do much damage anyways. Even when iron arm'd he will very often take wounds from getting pounded into the dirt. Then he often gets either assaulted by a dedicated combat unit, kills a few, and dies horribly, or he gets blasted by heavier weapons once on the ground and wounded.

Trygons have always been great, but have generally been replaced by tervigons. Smash is very good and tervigons with claws do it much, much better than trygons. Throw in the manditory TS on tervigons and you are going to be nearly as good vs inf as the trygon. With iron arm or warp speed you can actually be more effective and survivable. Tervigons are also troops, produce gaunts, and are shorter to get cover easier. Trygons would be great if they had the inv that they had in forgeworld (5+ if they didnt use bioelectric pulse if i remember)

We've got a local 'nid player in my group, and he's enjoying a lot more success in 6th, but it's largely predicated on Tervigons. The ability to actually create a wall of bugs without breaking the bank is highly effective in holding units down, and allowing him to send his heavy hitters where he needs them.

They're doing better as an army, but they still suffer from really bad internal balance; nothing's going to change that short of a new codex.

zephoid wrote:
Ymargl's terrain is specified at the beginning of the game and you can often move around to fill up a bunch of terrain after deployment, often making the whole ymargl unit destroyed.

Just to clarify it's specified but not revealed to your opponent, any piece of area terrain on the board could be hiding them and i've never lost a single unit to not being able to deploy. Unless you're playing a lot of mind readers or have a terrible poker face it should be rare.

They do have some internal balance issues in the dex but it's still a very solid army, psi defence hurts them but thats what Ymgarls and precisions shots are for.

How many large pieces of terrain do you play with that are close enough for you to be assaulted from? Normally the answer is 2-3. If they are deploying from an area they will not be able to instantly assault you from they are losing the best point of the unit. Simply parking a squad and a tank in most terrain is enough to cover most of a "forest" that GW sells which is a pretty common footprint. Even if you cant block everywhere, you can still kill half a squad. Note that ymargls still must deploy 1" from vehicles meaning a single razorback/rus/fire prism/raider can take up a lot of room. Two can fill a whole terrain piece.

For the ability to kill a whole ~150-230 point unit its worth possibly losing a bit of firepower for a turn.

You do realize that as long as the base is partially in the terrain the model can be deployed, right?

It's seriously difficult to ensure that they're dead - and that's if you guess the right terrain piece. There's normally ~4 on the table that your opponent would be ~14 inches from on turn 2. Unless he's playing absolute gunline... in which case you should say thank you anyway.

 rabid1903 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Red Terror isn't even an option in the codex anymore...

Actually, it became the Mawloc. Or did you believe that the tiny, Ravenor sized Red Terror could swallow a Space Marine whole?

You just have to believe


Internet high five to anyone who can name the series and episode.

Oh, you mean this?




Tyranids are strong in this edition. Just take a look at some of my battle reports in my Battle Report thread link below.

 jy2 wrote:

 rabid1903 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Red Terror isn't even an option in the codex anymore...

Actually, it became the Mawloc. Or did you believe that the tiny, Ravenor sized Red Terror could swallow a Space Marine whole?

You just have to believe


Internet high five to anyone who can name the series and episode.

Oh, you mean this?



Tyranids are strong in this edition. Just take a look at some of my battle reports in my Battle Report thread link below.

Not exactly what I was going for haha.

More looking for the cartoon.


By the way, I've been reading up on your battle reports, they are actually what made me dust off my favorite army. Wish I could run my all-reserve nids still, but just like the swarm I'll adapt to the new environment and consume again!

 rabid1903 wrote:

Not exactly what I was going for haha.

More looking for the cartoon.


By the way, I've been reading up on your battle reports, they are actually what made me dust off my favorite army. Wish I could run my all-reserve nids still, but just like the swarm I'll adapt to the new environment and consume again!

You can still run a semi-reserves tyranid force. Just remember to leave enough units on the board so that you don't get tabled on Turn 1.

True, but my old list bit the dust pretty hard I feel like. It had a good number of genestealers and hormagaunts, which both got hurt pretty bad from overwatch and no assaulting from outflanking.

Though I made a custom Swarmlord model and spent quite a bit of time magnetizing my Tyrant so he could use almost everything, so this gives me an excuse to try them out together.

zephoid wrote:
...overcosted (Tyrannofex, Swarmlord, fexes)

The Swarmlord might have a high cost, but if you play it right, then you have ways of absorbing or avoiding wounds. You have four chances to get Iron Arm if you go straight Biomancy, and if you play the terrain right, you can get to your targets easily enough. He's going to wreck anything in his path and, with Iron Arm, isn't going to fall to force weapons. Expensive but can be quite difficult to deal with. Our group plays terrain heavy (think City of Death without the expansions), so we are handicapping ourselves from the start. As a CSM player, I'm even further handicapped by having to issue and accept challenges. Our 'Nids player doesn't decline my challenges.

And Smash only halves your attacks when you want to double your strength. The AP2 attacks of Monstrous Creatures generally makes this unnecessary if you're dealing with a 1 wound MEQ or TEQ.

Again, they aren't top tier and there might only be a couple of competitive builds, but unless someone is tailoring a list specific to the higher toughness of the 'nids, a good number of all-comers lists are going to struggle.

wondering what peoples thoughts are on the twin linked deathspitters on hive tyrants. I know devourers on flyrants are the big thing right now but I'm considering trying something new for an upcoming apoc game over winter break. Wanted to know what peoples expierience with them has been
also figured it was better to ask here then start a whole new thread

Meh. Devourers sacrifice AP for Better Firepower, and there is not much of a difference between AP5 and -.

Assuming these stats are right:
S: 5 AP: 4 Assault 3
S: 6 AP: - Assault 6

I did some math hammer, and the devourer is literally better in every scenario. It ties if the target's toughness is 3 or less and the save is a 4+.

Other than that, it is worse in every case.

Spitters are S:5 AP:5

Really?

Wow... Then they are literally outclassed against every target. Huh, good to know.

 rabid1903 wrote:
Really?

Wow... Then they are literally outclassed against every target. Huh, good to know.

Yeah. I use the MC spitters for one handed Warrior/Shrike weapons as they're useless on anything that can take Brainleech Devourers.

Didn't deathspitters used to be blast weapons? If they kept the same statline but changed that it'd bring them into their own. Oh well though, such is life.

Nah, they'd be worse as blast.
Regardless - they need a massive point reduction to be useful on TMCs. As-is they're bits fodder.

Point reduction or something. Maybe even a low AP gun? I dunno, I just don't like one gun being totally eclipsed by another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I still have the spreadsheet I made on my computer.

If it were S: 5 AP: 3...

It would be better at killing things with toughness 5 or below and a 3+ save, and oddly enough something toughness 8 with a 3+ save.
It would be equal for toughness 3 or below and a 4+ save, toughness 6 with a 3+ save, and toughness 8 with a 4+ save.
Worse in all other categories.

And if the swarmlord wants to use that iron arm he does not take tyrant guard. Otherwise he is still T6 and is not much different from last edition. If he does go solo, any psychic defense turns him into a very expensive weaker tervigon. half the time.

I know what smash does. However the purpose of MCs is generally to kill tough things that gaunt swarms cant. Often smashing is necessary as IDing ICs is often clutch.

Deathspitters simply need redone. Yes, they used to be a blast weapon. That was back when the strength of the weapon was based on your creature's strength. Kind of a silly way to do it IMO but it certainly made the deathspitter actually useable compared to now on MCs....

Swarmlord + Guard + Prime is still a T7+ unit. (edit: with Iron Arm)

The Swarmlord doesn't need to smash to ID IC's. If they don't have EW a single unsaved wound IDs them.

Adding a prime and a guard takes this to 450 points or so. One that has no mobility enhancements and does very little to support the rest of the army. Last time i fought a nid player the guy surrendered before the swarmlord could even get close to my lines. I simply would spend 4-5 turns dealing with the rest of his army while moving backwards as he quickly lost his ranged firepower early. Swarmlord does not help with that fundamental problem of nids. He compounds it.

I understand Swarmlord's bonesabres cause ID. The comment was chained back to arguments as to the use of trygons vs tervigons. As smash only halves base attacks, rounding up, the tervigon loses 1 attach to smash vs the Trygon's 3 and will end up with more attacks with crushing claws that also re-roll to wound and pen armor.

zephoid wrote:
And if the swarmlord wants to use that iron arm he does not take tyrant guard. Otherwise he is still T6 and is not much different from last edition. If he does go solo, any psychic defense turns him into a very expensive weaker tervigon. half the time.

I know what smash does. However the purpose of MCs is generally to kill tough things that gaunt swarms cant. Often smashing is necessary as IDing ICs is often clutch.

Deathspitters simply need redone. Yes, they used to be a blast weapon. That was back when the strength of the weapon was based on your creature's strength. Kind of a silly way to do it IMO but it certainly made the deathspitter actually useable compared to now on MCs....

Iron Arm and Tyrant Guards aren't mutually exclusive, so I fail to see why you say "if the swarmlord wants to use that iron arm, he does not take tyrant guard". Iron Arm is a blessing, neither entry states that it replaces your movement for that phase. I'll admit to not being a Tyranids player, so I'm not overly familiar with the nuances of the army, but seeing what kind of damage he can do, I'm not sure that 60 points is a bad investment of points for two more T6 wounds. Perhaps you can explain your statement to me.

I understand the purpose of MCs, but for single wound MEQ/TEQ, especially against TEQ, you're going to land enough wounds with him that it's not going to matter if they make an invuln save, though how likely is that if they are having to reroll any successful 5+? Yes, against T5 and lower ICs, obviously you Smash, but even then, it's still three attacks (4/2+1 for two weapons) or four on the charge....more if you also have Warp Speed.

In my local meta, especially in our gaming group, psychic defense is pretty non-existent, as we have few people either playing Eldar or fielding them as allies. I've considered picking up some Eldar if only for a Farseer, but as I mainly play CSM, that's not an option for me. Our 'nids player only recently started playing them, so we haven't started tailoring lists to beat him.

I'm definitely open to my mind being changed, but as of now, at least in higher point games, I see the SL as a solid, if not expensive, investment.

 kcwm wrote:
Iron Arm and Tyrant Guards aren't mutually exclusive, so I fail to see why you say "if the swarmlord wants to use that iron arm, he does not take tyrant guard". Iron Arm is a blessing, neither entry states that it replaces your movement for that phase. I'll admit to not being a Tyranids player, so I'm not overly familiar with the nuances of the army, but seeing what kind of damage he can do, I'm not sure that 60 points is a bad investment of points for two more T6 wounds. Perhaps you can explain your statement to me.

He is probably referring to the majority Toughness rule, meaning that you don't get any Toughness benefit from Iron Arm until there is only single Tyrant Guard left.

I personally don't get the whole Swarmlord love thing. Leaving aside the horrible fluff (an individual in a faceless swarm) he has no firepower, no access to Old Adversary and costs crazy points. I'd much rather have my Twin Brainleech, OA, 2 Guard Tyrant. Precision strikes make twin devoures lethal to sepecial weapon troopers and they are great guns.

The addition of Smash gives even basic Tyrants a reliable form of ID which emans all he really has going for him is the melee invuln.

As for Deathspitters they are worse against everything, back in 5th when ap- gave -1 damage against vehicles that was at least something, now given they cost the same there is literally no reason to take spitters.

And yeah, as rigeld said, if your opponent is regularly able to spawn kill them I suggest moving your battle off planet bowling ball because your terrain density is way too low.