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Why not just a Hormagaunt specific Tervigon equivalent? Or let Hormies use Tervigons?

Hormagaunts might be overpriced, but they're still very scary in combat. Especially when paired with the Swarmlord (save a bunch of points on adrenal glands), they'll wipe out just about anything they touch.

They're still very fast, considering they're practically guaranteed a 5" or 6" run every turn. With fleet, you can still easily make a turn 2 charge.

Most importantly, they're not expected. Your opponent knows how strong your Flyrants and Tervigons are. They look at a bunch of Hormagaunts and laugh...one Enfeeble and just 20 Hormagaunts later, their deathstar is gone.

I'm inclined to agree with the those mentioning Tervigons here. Termagants and Hormagaunts are accurately priced in my opinion in a whole without Tervigons. Make the Tervigon effect all gaunts species and suddenly Hormagaunts are right back up there.

This cheap access to upgrades is what tips the scales rather than the cost of the upgrades, even at 1pt per upgrade they'd still be inferior because of the Tervigon synergy. The fact they are gunless but still a point more makes me wonder if maybe they were originally supposed to be effected by her buffs and it was dropped later as they would make better use of her. IB Feed isn't worth the extra point otherwise.

I don't see the problem with assault grenade shortages though, if your opponent wants to cover hog he's fighting defensively and in an objective game thats a bad plan. It'll net him a few extra gaunt kills but ultimately won't stem the tide if you're using good sized blocks of them with psy support.

Some great ideas here... my favorites are these:

Always get 4th edition catalyst. Make it so they have to be in synapse for the effect, but at least we get to swing.

Make Tervigons work for Hormagaunts. Probably best idea... GW can even make a $20 dollar finecast piece to show hormagaunts emerging from its body, instead of the termagants. Best idea in this one (for balance sake) is that it would have to be either a termie or hormie Tervigon, as one that would boost both would be kind of insane for effectiveness.

Assault grenades... you know... just a thought. We'd write a thank you note if we got them.

Honestly hormagaunts aren't too bad... the unit that makes me cry is my Raveners. Some of the best models in the tyranid range and I cannot think of a single time I would take them.

I believe everything in the Nid codex is overpriced. Guants are the most overpriced horde unit out there. Compare it to Orks or IG and it's quite pathetic. IG have better armor save, longer range and more shots while being slower in CC. Orks are tougher, have a butt load of attacks or can shoot pretty well and hurt bad when they charge. Hormagaunts are fast... That's about it. Termagaunts are shorter range and/or less shots than either horde option. Gargs are rather nice since they're jump infantry, but that's about it. Lets not forget that every other horde has grenades.

 Kaldor wrote:
Why not just a Hormagaunt specific Tervigon equivalent? Or let Hormies use Tervigons?

Because it's completely unnecessary. They have a reproduction method. They just need to actually implement it. It even used to have a model and rules through Forgeworld, though not anymore since the rules are 4th edition and the model was discontinued with the rest of their terrain.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
IB Feed isn't worth the extra point otherwise.

It is in 6th. You trade fearless for an extra attack. In 5th it sucked, yes, but in 6th it's decent.

I don't see the problem with assault grenade shortages though, if your opponent wants to cover hog he's fighting defensively and in an objective game thats a bad plan. It'll net him a few extra gaunt kills but ultimately won't stem the tide if you're using good sized blocks of them with psy support.

If all of your objectives are in the open, that's strange. And the entire unit doesn't have to move through cover - just one model. With large Hormagaunt units that's easy to force, especially if there's cover nearby (and not just on the objective).

 -Loki- wrote:
It's an endemic problem with Cruddace books - precisely that he prices things like that and doesn't test them. Theoretically yes, Hormagaunts are getting more attacks that land due to scything talons.

I don't even think it has to do with Scything Talons (what with how relitively easy it is to give the counterpart units Prefered Enemy), it is just that they have 2 attacks in their profile while the other two have 1. Flipping through my codex, Ripper upgrades seem to be priced the same way (4 attacks per swarm, guess how many points for Toxin Sacs/Adrenal Glands?).

 -Loki- wrote:

However, they're also a T3, W1 6+sv unit assault unit without assault grenades. They need to make it to combat to deliver those hits, of which many in the unit simply won't.

That's what (spawned) Termagants and Gargoyles are for. Those units catch a victim and the Hormagaunts follow along afterwards to finish tearing it apart without having to worry about terrain initiative penalties or overwatch (and they get screened from shooting, though a 5+ isn't much). Not exactly the fluffy way to do it, but works for the most part.

zephoid wrote:
Hormies lay eggs under ground, not above ground. All gaunts used to but then cruddice decided to retcon 10+ years of fluff to make the abomination known as the tervigon. That was the concept of the endless swarm. You couldnt kill the spawning facility because you couldnt find it. The nests were everywhere and hard to find and kill. Thats why the tyranid invasions werent stopped quickly by a few air strikes on tervigons. Hell, just incendiary bomb tervigons and watch.

The Tervigon isn't described as replacing Tyranid nests though (see the bit on the Ghorala swarm, no mention of Tervigons anywhere). If anything, their fluff describes them as basically being a mobile security nexus/control center of sorts. They oversee Termagants in patroling Hive Ships while in transit and carry some dormant broods/larva within them in the event an intruder is detected and no other forces are within the immediate vicinity to stall the pest while other units are awoken from stasis. It can probably be safely assumed they perform a similar role around critical surface structures in planetary invasions as well (which might explain why they pair up with Hive Guard so well - Tervigons would likely be the main synaptic unit about while the rest of the swarm rampages forth and would probably be responsible for driving them to the front lines when needed as described in the Hive Guard unit entry).

 Kaldor wrote:
Why not just a Hormagaunt specific Tervigon equivalent? Or let Hormies use Tervigons?

It would probably be better to just give them a revised version of the old endless swarm rule/upgrade for a replenishment mechanic, as Tervigons are already extremely good and already an extremely high target priority (at least based on my experience - as soon as an opponent learns about their synaptic feedback they tend to point every gun at them in hopes of blowing up a large swath of Termagants along with the Tervigon) and a new "Horvigon" would in all likelyhood throw off the balance between Termagants and Hormagaunts entirely (not to mention would be somewhat dull given it would be a minior tweak of an existing unit mechanically).

Even then, Hormagaunts would probably be perfectly competitive as is with some tweaks to some of the other units in the codex. A lot of the units they pair up well with are either a bit over-priced (Harpy, Tyrannofex, Flying Tyrant IMO, Carnifex), a bit too fragile for competitive play (Raveners, Shrikes, melee Warriors, Genestealers, Venomthropes), or just non-functional (Rippers of all types, Trygon tunnels).

Also while on the subject of adjustments, has anyone considered perhaps moving Spinefists from Termagants to Hormagaunts as a free swap with Scything Talons? The cost stays the same, but on Hormagaunts the weapon would actually be an interesting (and functional) choice. Would also help out all those people with the heaps of Spinegaunts from 4th I'd imagine.

What I would like to see is the cost dropped to 5pt, upgrades to 1pt/model, and WS returned to 4. Then, bring bounding leap in line with 6th edition, something like:

"Models/units with this rule roll an additional die when running or assaulting and discard the lowest (after any re-rolls)."

I think the bump in WS isn't necessary, but the rest of your changes sound good.

Honestly I'd love to give them some more close combat options though. Basically to match the options that termagants have.
*note: assuming 5 ppm and upgrades are 1 ppm
---Change it so scything talons are there by default
---Rending claws are a 5 pt upgrade
---A modified form of flesh hooks that are only strength 3 and not rending for a 2 pt upgrade
---A modified form of acid blood 4 pt upgrade that makes them not scoring.

Obviously these need to be balanced and wouldn't be able to be taken together. But it would give them some different roles they could fill, some being pretty nasty.

For instance
---Scything Talons would make them the same as they are now, just cheap troops that are better than termagants in close combat.
---Rending Claws would make them pretty expensive shock troops that are not to be trifled with.
---The new flesh hooks would make them great at flushing out dug in troops, but they are more expensive and don't pack as strong of a punch when they arrive.
---Acid blood basically makes them suicide units. They go in, do their damage, but are assumed to die at the end of the battle and are thus not scoring.


Just some quick ideas.

 rabid1903 wrote:
I think the bump in WS isn't necessary (neither was the nerf to 3) , but the rest of your changes sound good.

Honestly I'd love to give them some more close combat options though. Basically to match the options that termagants have.
*note: assuming 5 ppm and upgrades are 1 ppm
---Change it so scything talons are there by default Aren't they already?
---Rending claws are a 5 pt upgrade Better yet, make it a 9pt upgrade that gives +3WS, +1S, +1T, +1I, +4Ld, 5+ armour, Rending Claws and Infiltrate, but limits the squad size to 20 and Requires you to use genestealer models.
---A modified form of flesh hooks that are only strength 3 and not rending for a 2 pt upgrade or just give them frag spines (like a fex) during the assault phase, for 1 pt/model
---A modified form of acid blood 4 pt upgrade that makes them not scoring. Whhyyyyyy???

Obviously these need to be balanced and wouldn't be able to be taken together. But it would give them some different roles they could fill, some being pretty nasty.

For instance
---Scything Talons would make them the same as they are now, just cheap troops that are better than termagants in close combat.
---Rending Claws would make them pretty expensive shock troops that are not to be trifled with. Like Genestealers?
---The new flesh hooks would make them great at flushing out dug in troops, but they are more expensive and don't pack as strong of a punch when they arrive. So, make them suck worse, but hit first is what you are saying?
---Acid blood basically makes them suicide units. They go in, do their damage, but are assumed to die at the end of the battle and are thus not scoring. Like I said- Why?


Just some quick ideas.

Comments in red.

*edit: Unnecessary post.

(Grain of salt: my experience with 'nids is very old, new stuff is based on listening to a friend who's just starting out)

Don't you have a guy who tunnels in and lets reserves pop out of the same hole? It seems that that, in addition to the endless waves idea, would be a way to recycle gaunts without having them have to run all the way back from your deployment zone.

That has a pretty good chance of working, though the rules say you can only bring one squad out at a time. Granted, the likelihoood of two hormagaunt squads being eliminated at the same time is pretty low.

Huh... thin carapace.



Anyways, as to the "overlap", the whole thing is a basic exercise in ecology. The Competitive Exclusion Principle basically states that of two highly similar competitors, one will go extinct (highly simplified). Genestealers and Hormagaunts already fill similar roles (Niches) in the tyranid Codex (ecosystem). Both are fairly fast, fragile, high-initiative melee troops. Now, Hormagaunts focus on quantity (r-selection). They have poor stats, but are cheap (low competitiveness, high reproduction). Genestealers, however, are more based on quality (k-selection). You get fewer, but they hit harder and are tougher (Low reproduction, high competitiveness). What you are proposing with the acid blood and rending claws upgrades is to increase competitiveness at the cost of reproduction (their strength). By adding rending claws, you push them deep into genestealers niche by giving them the ability to crack heavy armour. This will result in one of three things:

Situation 1: Hormagaunts are too expensive.
All those things I mentioned? Advantages a Genestealer has, now for only 4 points more. There is no reason to take this upgrade when you can simply pay a few points for a much better unit to do the same thing.

Situation 2: Hormagaunts are too cheap.
They completely replace Genestealers when it comes to melee combat.

Situation 3: Hormagaunts are priced just right.
Things are decided by local/regional meta (other competitors). Of course, one of them will still lose out when you consider that there is probably going to be one overarching meta worldwide, like there was in 5th edition.



You get a similar thing with Termagants and Flesh Hooks. Termagants are a cheap scoring unit, but hormagaunts can shoot and fight. Alternately, Why don't I just shoot them?



Warriors, however, fulfill a different niche than Hormagaunts and Genestealers. They Have:

A) Multiple Wounds
B) A ranged Weapon
C) Synapse

They take the form of a combined arms combatant, who can take an objective and anchor your army around it via synapse. They do not overlap significantly with genestealers and hormagaunts.



What I'm saying is the exact opposite of what you say I'm saying; I'm saying that we should enhance our unit options, by not making them compete against each other! By not making one unit better, but making them all different, we maximize species richness in our armies.

Sorry Crazy_Carnifex, I guess I read what you put totally different than you meant. I'll delete my post because it's not what this thread is about.

I like what you're saying though, but I'm not sure how we can diversify them better besides a total revamp or more options for the unit.

http://www.mediafire.com/?9f6y6qfl6axa1it

My ideas for new nid codex. Its unformatted so its hard to read but you can check the changes to gaunts for a better evaluation on how to cost upgrades.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
IB Feed isn't worth the extra point otherwise.

It is in 6th. You trade fearless for an extra attack. In 5th it sucked, yes, but in 6th it's decent.

Serious false economy, you're also LD5, you better hope that extra attack wins you the combat because if not you are at risk of being wiped out. That coupled with the lack of toughness or armour makes this a likely result against anyone with solid melee capacity.

I don't see the problem with assault grenade shortages though, if your opponent wants to cover hog he's fighting defensively and in an objective game thats a bad plan. It'll net him a few extra gaunt kills but ultimately won't stem the tide if you're using good sized blocks of them with psy support.

If all of your objectives are in the open, that's strange. And the entire unit doesn't have to move through cover - just one model. With large Hormagaunt units that's easy to force, especially if there's cover nearby (and not just on the objective).