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*note: I'm not sure if this should be in here or proposed rules. Sorry if I guessed wrong


After looking through the Tyranids codex again, I started comparing the three "gaunt" style units in the codex.

You have:
Termagants (5 ppm)
Hormagaunts (6 ppm)
Gargoyles (6 ppm)

Gargoyles essentially are Termagants that become jump infantry, lose the ability to score, and become slightly better in assault for 1 point. To me this is a good trade, maybe a bit too good.

Hormagaunts though become quite a bit better at assault, lose all ranged ability, have increased upgrade cost, and become slightly faster for 1 point. This isn't a very good trade to me.

Personally, I think that either lowering the ppm down to 5 to be the same as a termagant or lowering the upgrade cost down to the same as the Termagants and Gargoyles would make them at least on par with Gargoyles. They definitely won't be on par with the Termagants still because they don't unlock the Tervigon, but that's a different matter.


I have considered house ruling one of the two things above to give some more versatility to the Troops section of the codex, but I'm not sure if I'm just going crazy or if others have thought the same thing.

What do you guys think?

Hormagaunts aren't overpriced - their upgrades are. 10 points for a fully upgraded gaunt vs 7 points for a fully upgraded gant. And the gant can opt to not purchase the upgrades and instead rely on a nearby Terivgon...

That was my hunch. I don't see why the upgrades cost so much.

Warning, incoming public math. tl;dr lowering the upgrades makes it pretty balanced in my opinion.


In a vacuum, against a standard 5 marines this is how the math works out:

4 marines with bolters, 1 sgt with bolt pistol and CCW
9 upgraded hormagaunts
24" out, Tyranid first turn (for the advantage)

Hormagaunts move up and run
Marines shoot in rapid fire range. 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 dead gaunts.

Hormagaunts move up and charge.
Marines overwatch. 9 shots, 1.5 hits, 1 dead gaunt.
Hormagaunts swing in CC. 12 attacks, 7 hits, 5.25 wounds, 1.75 dead (round to 2)
Marines swing in CC. 5 attacks, 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds, 1.85 dead (round to 2)

Hormagaunts swing in round 2. 4 attacks, 2.33 hits, 1.16 wounds, .39 dead (round to 0)
Marines swing in CC. Same result as above, Hormagaunts wiped out.

So with every advantage, the Hormagaunts kill 2 Marines. If the Marines would have shot first another 2 gaunts wouldn't have even made it to combat and only one Marine would have been killed.




If the upgrades were only 1 ppm, this is the math.

4 Marines with bolters, 1 Sgt with bolt pistol and CCW (90 points)
11 upgraded Hormagaunts (88 points)
24" out, Tyranid first turn (for the advantage)

Hormagaunts move up and run
Marines shoot in rapid fire range. 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 dead gaunts.

Hormagaunts move up and charge.
Marines overwatch. 9 shots, 1.5 hits, 1 dead gaunt.
Hormagaunts swing in CC. 18 attacks, 10.5 hits, 7.88 wounds, 2.63 dead Marines (round to 3)
Marines swing in CC. 4 attacks, 2.67 hits, 1.78 wounds, 1.48 dead gaunts (round to 1)

Hormagaunts swing in round 2. 10 attacks, 5.83 hits, 2.92 wounds, .97 dead Marines (round to 1)
Marines swing in round 2. 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 1.11 dead gaunts (round to 1)

Hormagaunts swing in round 3. 8 attacks, 4.67 hits, 2.33 wounds, .78 dead Marines (round to 1)
Marines are all dead, 4 gaunts remain


If Marines shot first, the Hormagaunts would kill 2 or 3 before being wiped out.



The second scenario seems much more balanced to me.

I can't understand why they're not beasts in this edition. I mean, really you have high initiative but you'll never get to use it. Either I'm going to be in cover, or they're just too slow and when they arrive it is too little too late.

Beasts would be a great change. Or the novel concept of giving assault grenades to an assault-oriented army. Or changing it so if you have move through cover your initiative doesn't drop. Any of those changes would be fantastic.

 rabid1903 wrote:
Or changing it so if you have move through cover your initiative doesn't drop.

That would be amazing for the codex as a whole.

That's my personal favorite. I think it's a good balance to overwatch and wouldn't break the game. I might play test that as a house rule.

Honestly that might make genestealers decent again. Fleet + Move through cover gives them a pretty damn good chance at a long charge range even through cover. I can't remember how move through cover works for charges so correct me if I'm wrong: it'd be 4D6, drop the highest and lowest, and can reroll any of them?

Most weeny units are overpriced in all honesty. Hormagaunts, Guardsmen, Termagants, Guardians, etc.

The ones that *are* good are usually made so by upgrades (e.g. IG vets). The only unit I can think of at that level that's really appropriately priced (now) is the Ork Boy.

The problem with these units is that they are hard to cost correctly when a couple of points makes the all the difference in the world, and usually GW makes them more expensive than they really should be.

Maybe a way around that is to buy them in batches?

10 Hormagaunts for 55 points? It'd be 5.5 ppm, but the fractions of a point don't matter if you can only buy them in whole sets.

This would hurt list building a bit as buying one or two additional bodies is a nice way to spend leftover points.

 Shadox wrote:
This would hurt list building a bit as buying one or two additional bodies is a nice way to spend leftover points.

True, but I'd take a bit of list building difficulty if that helps to balance an army. In reality, it's only a few points here or there but it could add up to putting a nice upgrade on certain units or taking one more body elsewhere.

Are Hormagaunts overpriced? Yes, by about 10€ or 12$

Won't deny that, but that seems more suited for the 100's of other threads about GW's prices.

I'm willing to bet that in the 6th edition Tyranid Codex (yes, they will probably get an update, they are the only army other than SM to get an update in every edition), upgrades for Gaunts will be a flat cost for a per-unit purchase, like Psybolt Ammo is for GK. So instead of paying 2 points for upgrade X per model in a hormagaunt squad, you'll pay 15 points to give the upgrade to the entire squad. This is also somewhat in keeping with their trend in 6th to make larger units somewhat better than smaller ones (apart from the ability to only be able to capture one objective, 6th edition had several changes which brought blobs closer to par with MSU, including first blood, overwatch (overwatch rewards larger squads on both defense and offense)).

Everything in the codex should have the 4th edition Catylist. Simply the rule said if you die before your init step, you still strike. You would take a lot of casualties, but it represents the models striking back even if they are torn in half. FnP across the whole army would also work, but would be too strong and thats more of a BA calling card.

Hormies should not exist. Just go back to gaunt being one type with a large number of upgrades. Hormies are just termis with ST and +1I now that running is largely useless. No reason why the should be 2 units.

I would love to have a single type of gaunt that I could customize how I see fit.

Give it the base statline of a termagant and 3 ppm.
1 point upgrade to give it a weapon, be it scything talons or fleshborer.
2 points for a body type. Snake like body for beast and Deep Strike, wings to become jump infantry, or armored for a 5+ save.
1 point for each of the upgrades.
Then some extra options like an extra attack or something.

I think your best option is to not upgrade them (with the current rule structure). Ork Boyz are 6 points a piece too, but upgrading them to 'ard boyz really doesn't help much especially against marines, who can tear through them like paper anyway. Outnumbering marines 9-5 with a swarm army isn't bad for marines. out numbering them 30-10 makes it a lot better for a mob/swarm.

Thing is, if you take an ork boy vs a hormagaunt the ork boy wins if you don't upgrade the gaunts.

If the gaunt gets the charge he has a 50/50 chance of killing the boy, and the ork has a 80% chance to kill the gaunt.
If the boy charges the gaunt has a 1/3 chance to kill but the ork boy will kill the gaunt 1.5 times.


Honestly I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make, I think I'm just frustrated with how bad one of the units I like is doing.

 rabid1903 wrote:
Thing is, if you take an ork boy vs a hormagaunt the ork boy wins if you don't upgrade the gaunts.

If the gaunt gets the charge he has a 50/50 chance of killing the boy, and the ork has a 80% chance to kill the gaunt.
If the boy charges the gaunt has a 1/3 chance to kill but the ork boy will kill the gaunt 1.5 times.


Honestly I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make, I think I'm just frustrated with how bad one of the units I like is doing.

I hear that, poor genestealers.

Genestealers and little velociraptors. Both awesome at everything but performing on the table.

Ya, I think most dedicated melee units should get -1 ppm or something since its 6th Ed. Unfortunately GW didn't agree and slightly nerfed Berzerkers (pretty much the staple CSM melee option) while moving them to elite (though troop option unlockable). I was hoping to buy more berzerkers and do a melee marine horde.

:(

The main thing that hurts Hormagaunts when compared to Termagants is Termagants have an extremely good unit designed solely to buff them - the Tervigon. It can grant free Toxin Sacs/Adrenal Glands to nearby Termagants, make more Termagants, and provides a good synapse base. It then can take psychic powers that are, again, great at buffing those Termagants (as well as other things in the area).

What Hormagaunts need is a little of their fluff injected into their rules. They are supposed to be the numberless horde used to expend enemies ammo, yet in acutality, they're a scoring unit you don't want to use for that function because it leaves you with one less scoring unit.

I've said this before, but - bring in the Brood Nest as an upgrade, with the old 'without number' rules. The Brood Nest is bought as an upgrade, and placed maybe even with infiltration rules. It's a medium AV 'building'. It lets any Hormagaunt unit reduced below 25% strength or destroyed outright deploy on the Tyranid players next turn from the Nest as if it was disembarking from a vehicle. Still generated an additional kill point like additional Termagant squads do.

If the Brood Nest is destroyed, they lose the ability to redeploy and the unit is destroyed outright the next time it is destroyed completely.

This gives you recycling Hormagaunts, as per their fluff (they lay eggs in that nest, which forms the 'waves' of Hormagaunts). It also lets to be a bit more careless with them and use them how they are depicted in the fluff, but still ties the ability to something the opponent can remove from play.

 -Loki- wrote:
The main thing that hurts Hormagaunts when compared to Termagants is Termagants have an extremely good unit designed solely to buff them - the Tervigon. It can grant free Toxin Sacs/Adrenal Glands to nearby Termagants, make more Termagants, and provides a good synapse base. It then can take psychic powers that are, again, great at buffing those Termagants (as well as other things in the area).

What Hormagaunts need is a little of their fluff injected into their rules. They are supposed to be the numberless horde used to expend enemies ammo, yet in acutality, they're a scoring unit you don't want to use for that function because it leaves you with one less scoring unit.

I've said this before, but - bring in the Brood Nest as an upgrade, with the old 'without number' rules. The Brood Nest is bought as an upgrade, and placed maybe even with infiltration rules. It's a medium AV 'building'. It lets any Hormagaunt unit reduced below 25% strength or destroyed outright deploy on the Tyranid players next turn from the Nest as if it was disembarking from a vehicle. Still generated an additional kill point like additional Termagant squads do.

If the Brood Nest is destroyed, they lose the ability to redeploy and the unit is destroyed outright the next time it is destroyed completely.

This gives you recycling Hormagaunts, as per their fluff (they lay eggs in that nest, which forms the 'waves' of Hormagaunts). It also lets to be a bit more careless with them and use them how they are depicted in the fluff, but still ties the ability to something the opponent can remove from play.

This sounds great.

I like it Loki. Have you play tested it or come up with any more rules for it?

It sounds really fluffy and a great way to bring Hormagaunts back into a unique role.

I don't think the brood nest would work, simply because you would have to sell them with the hormagaunts, however, on a more likely version, what if it was just a simple "bring in the next wave" ability. That way, you can actually kill off the last surviving gaunts in the wave, and spawn them in the next round.

What if you just took it as a fortification? Having Nid specific fortifications would make up for no allies.

As something akin to our capillary towers, bio cannons, and such? I suppose. But, it would have to occupy a troop slot. Kind of like a tervigon/termagant relationship. That way, your paying for something expensive that has the potential to spout out far more points than its counterpart is worth. Otherwise your gonna wind up with a broken 'nid tide that would make all the orks howl in rage.

Just as a hunch, but the odd upgrade cost for Hormagaunts compared to their kin is probably based on the number of attacks being upgraded in their unit profile (Hormagaunts have 2 attacks, Gargoyles and Termagants have 1).

That aside, I think they are fairly priced considering what stat boosts they get over Termagants (I5, 2A, Fleet, Scything Talons for rerolls, Bounding Leap), the main thing really is that they perform a slightly different role than their two Fleshborer-carrying kin. While they can be used as a screening fodder unit like Gargoyles or Termagants (their main advantage here is they have IB-Feed, so if they run out of synapse they won't cause a traffic jam) they are much better suited to counter assault. They bring more attacks than their two counterparts (at I5, so they can potentially reduce the amount of damage they take back) so their damage output doesn't drop off as much after the first round of combat and charging into an ongoing assault removes the usual penalties that they would face (and, since the unit is locked in assault they wouldn't be able to shoot it anyway if they did have guns).


I am a little biased admittedly, I used Hormagaunts quite heavily in 5th edition as I found the cost of Genestealers difficult to swallow (2 toxin sac Hormagaunts cost about the same as 1 standard Genestealer and they get twice as many attacks, twice as many wounds, and Scything Talons to make up for lower WS) and with 6th I often find myself missing my brood of 20-30 whenever I leave them out.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
I don't think the brood nest would work, simply because you would have to sell them with the hormagaunts, however, on a more likely version, what if it was just a simple "bring in the next wave" ability. That way, you can actually kill off the last surviving gaunts in the wave, and spawn them in the next round.

That was called Without Number, and worked the exact same way I described (if the Gaunt unit is below 25% you can elect to remove it and it comes on as if from reserves the next turn, if it is destroyed, you can do the same). The problem I had with it is two-fold. First, by the time the unit comes back, they won't be in a position to do much as they will be coming from your deployment zone, at least a turns hike from the combat. Two, there's no way for the opponent to remove the threat.

Something that did occur to me was a respawning unit for 30 Hormagaunts in the midfield if your opponent doesn't destroy the nest, however, that can be easily fixed with a rule such as 'whenever a unit of Hormagaunts redeploys from the Brood Nest, it loses D6 + current turn worth of models. If this would bring it below 10 models (the minimum size for a Hormagaunt unit), deploy 10 models'.

That means if you play them agressively and lose the unit every turn, you're getting deminishing returns, and by turn 3-4 you might be down to only spawning 10 models. If you had a large unit which didn't get respawned until late game, you get a larger unit back, but not the full unit. This places some emphasis on the opponent to destroy the nest, but won't let the Tyranid player deliver a crippling blow last turn with 30 new Hormagaunts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strat_N8 wrote:
Just as a hunch, but the odd upgrade cost for Hormagaunts compared to their kin is probably based on the number of attacks being upgraded in their unit profile (Hormagaunts have 2 attacks, Gargoyles and Termagants have 1).

It's an endemic problem with Cruddace books - precisely that he prices things like that and doesn't test them. Theoretically yes, Hormagaunts are getting more attacks that land due to scything talons. However, they're also a T3, W1 6+sv unit assault unit without assault grenades. They need to make it to combat to deliver those hits, of which many in the unit simply won't.

Hormies lay eggs under ground, not above ground. All gaunts used to but then cruddice decided to retcon 10+ years of fluff to make the abomination known as the tervigon. That was the concept of the endless swarm. You couldnt kill the spawning facility because you couldnt find it. The nests were everywhere and hard to find and kill. Thats why the tyranid invasions werent stopped quickly by a few air strikes on tervigons. Hell, just incendiary bomb tervigons and watch.

Consolidate gaunts into one unit, remove the tervigon, and add endless swarm back in (wont happen, i know, but i can always hope).