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Hmm AV 12....? With a Chaos Predator, you would have AV 13, AV 12, and two AV 11. Are Chaos Dreads still point efficient?

Martel732 wrote:
Hmm AV 12....? With a Chaos Predator, you would have AV 13, AV 12, and two AV 11. Are Chaos Dreads still point efficient?

Chaos Dreads are now 'Helbrutes', and they're 100 points. They come with a multi-melta and a power fist (NOT a dreadnought close-combat weapon) And they're AV12 front and sides and AV10 in the back. They're still Crazed, but it's way better now. They won't attack friendlies any more.

Can Helbrutes change out the multimelta for say...... twinlinked autocannon?

Martel732 wrote:
Can Helbrutes change out the multimelta for say...... twinlinked autocannon?

Reaper Autocannon for five points.

Martel732 wrote:
Hmm AV 12....? With a Chaos Predator, you would have AV 13, AV 12, and two AV 11. Are Chaos Dreads still point efficient?

I wouldnt reccomend taking too much armor, especilly things that want to get up close. He has allied in DE and wyches with haywire grenades, however bad they might be in assault vs infantry and now pure death against dreads. Especially dreads without flamers.

If the helbrute has a reaper autocannon, it doesn't need to get close. Combined with the other AV 12 thingie and maybe a Chaos predator that's a lot of 48" dakka for a reasonable price. And lances aren't that big of deal, either, especially if they aren't in range.

I'm also suspecting that wyches are not likely to get fortune cast on them, so just shoot them to death. The whole point of shooting is to eliminate things you don't want getting close.

Martel732 wrote:
If the helbrute has a reaper autocannon, it doesn't need to get close. Combined with the other AV 12 thingie and maybe a Chaos predator that's a lot of 48" dakka for a reasonable price. And lances aren't that big of deal, either, especially if they aren't in range.

reapers got nerfed to 36" at some point in the past. 105 points for 1 reaper or 115 for 4 regular autocannons...

2 twinlinked shots at 36" or 8 shots at 48"...

also at that point a forgefiend is worth considering 175 points for 8 str8 shots that pin(eldar are not all fearless) at 36"

I would like to point out that the tactics for taking on the Wraithguard with things like Breath of Chaos will not necessarily work against the wraithguard unit. If the one of the Farseers in the unit is getting divination spells and happens to get the one that gives them a 4+ invulnerable save then the Wraithguard become incredibly hard to kill with almost anything.

Multiple times I've had units of Flamers of Tzeentch deep strike next to them and flame them. Most of the time I lose about 1 model to those flamers. But there have been many occasions where I lose none. That re rollable 4+ is incredibly helpful in keeping them alive.

That being said, the way to take them out normally is to kill the Farseer first if you can. That is no easy task when he's running Eldrad though. Volume of shots does not necessarily kill off a lot of Wraithguard either if they happen to have Fortune and Forewarning on them. That combination makes them particularly hard to shift.

But since they are such a short ranged unit, most of the time you can just kill the rest of the Eldar army and leave the Wraithguard unit alone.

Power weapons don't tend to improve your numbers vs eldar in cc too significantly. It's like buying plasma guns for all your guys, doubling their costs, when bolters are doing you fine.

Another thing to note vs eldar in cc is you shouldn't invest in keeping your initiative high, it's entirely likely his is better than yours anyway.

Autocannon spam tends to be pretty helpful! Mobile flamers are good too! Besides scatterwalkers and jets eldar tend to be bad at shooting up too. Might be a good place for fnp given the volume of fire approach. You might get some distance out of unmarked biomancy sorc.

More marine equivalent scoring units with fewer close combat upgrades are my thinking. Think of all the bolters you could be brining to the table with csm and noise guys might even be a help.

Power weapons are good vs the aspect warriors with 3+ saves. But I wouldn't invest heavily. All the non-hand to hand eldar can be piledriven by just the standard marine stat line.

It's really all about taking out the warwalkers and psykers, imo. Eldar lists that use non-warwalker non-wraithlord heavy slots do not seem to do well in 6th. The Falcon is completely gimped by hull points and the fire prism is impressive..... until it gets shot back.

Yeah, I am surprised at the bad luck you're having there, Chaos should not have huge problems with that list.

The autocannon Havoks should absolutely murder those war walkers. I would possibly suggest a Chaos Tri Las Predator in your list? Costs the same as Havoks, does close to the same damage, much more resilient. Also consider a vindicator.

The wraithlords are actually not all that. In fact, they generally struggle to make their points back, as they dont really get enough attacks to kill enough things in melee. It's very much a low priority. The highest priority is war walkers, then transport, then the psyker, if you ever get the chance.

The bale flamer really needs to take down the assault specialists first and foremost. Again as people mentioned, wraithguard is very low on the fire priority pole, as they are again a very hard unit that does not do much. Vidicators are good, as as plasma rifles.

Mixing two lords is often a bad idea. If you want a second HQ, usually a sorcerer serves you better, or a DP. However, outflanking with a really big unit is always a bad idea. You want to outflank with that Slaneeshi lord? go for Bikers with meltas, a PF and IoE, and give your lord PF/LC or the Black Mace(or Murder sword, but not against eldar). Show up turn two, torch a vehicle, then hunt the enemy HQ. Though if you know you are up against eldar, you might wanna skip slanessi lords altogether, the extra I wont help.

Instead, I tend to find that Khorne Lord is where it's at against eldar. A Juggernaught Khorne lord with the Axe of Blinding Fury along with 4-5 Chaos Spawn, hidden from LoS from the enemy war walkers. Turn two you get in melee with anything, it will die a horrible death. Repeat. With the spawn, you can even take a shot of the wraith guard and only lose 1-2. Add a Nurgle Bike squad to increase the pressure. Fast Attack is what kills eldar.

As the baron is not an eldar, he does not benefit from fortune right? So no rerollable 2++ which really should help.

As others said, kill the war Walkers with havoc auto canon fire and try to flame the harlies. The flyer can come on at an angle so you should have ben able to flame the harlies I would think. Also, in addition to bikes spawn are also helpful so long as you keep cover saves on them. Bikes get a nice 3+ with 5+ cover, which counters the 3 wounds of spawn, but if spawn get a cover save they quickly become awesome. They also are t6 with nurgle and can kill both war Walkers and wraith guard and wraith lords. Finally, unlike bikes who harlies can rends to bypass their save, spawn have no normal save so lose nothing.

 atomsmasher wrote:

I don't have a great record of his army list (because I don't know jack about stupid space elves) but I'll try to touch on the highlights.

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This is why you lost. Nothing else anyone says will help until you fix this. Knowing your enemy is half the battle.