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Palindrome wrote:
If you don't want to look like a prick how about being more civil?

The Codex itself is perfectly usable with the caveat that it is a GW Codex and they always fall short of where they should. There are certainly some isues but they are mostly thematic (why can't my Nugle Chaos lord have FnP like the rest of the army?) and there are the usual couple of dud units but overall its a solid book.

Palindrome, its nice to see that we can agree on this, even if we disagree elsewhere.

That is the core of productive discussion

Defilers are not good anymore

The sentiment I took umbrage with was expressed in other threads by that poster and deconstructed repeatedly on why that isn't true and what else is wrong with the book, and when the accusation is repeated yet again as a not-so-subtle generalized ad-hominem attack on those holding an opposing viewpoint, despite having already been explained that there are very good reasons why people might not like the book, then it's an issue of that poster just wanting to slap labels on people and get in their little barb because of some particular personal issue in regards to the topic of conversation, and not about the actual topic of discussion.

Under those circumstances, when posts like that are made not to engage in a discussion of the book or the perceptions held by others but merely to label the other side as nasty and declare victory, it deserves to be called out. Perhaps it could have been done less virulently, but I stand by my assertion that the post was ill informed and a projection of the posters own issues as opposed to an honest opinion of the book and the its reception.

I


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are vanilla CSM competitive?

For me, disappointing; my three defilers are now over-priced, even with the new Daemon rules they get. Daemon-princes can be alright, but the lack of eternal warrior and power-armour makes them vulnerable. Some cult troops still don't get thier own specific weapons, like hand-flamers and meltas for khorne, or bile-throwers for nurgle. New units added are pretty mediocre; can be good or can let you down. Too much randomness in the book. You sill cannot give marks to vehicles.

There are some good things though, for example Plague Marines now have poisoned weapons and Typhus can get Plague Zombies.

Phil Kelly's best work in a decade. Thankfully Chaos was spared the Black Hole loony-toon abomination he endowed on Dark Eldar. No Chaos-claw wielding Chaos-steed-riding Chaos Champion Chaos Cavalry in 40K either (whew!). No cheese Falcons utterly breaking the game.

Still probably in the lowest third of 40K Codexes as far as the overall line goes.

Daemon-princes can be alright, but the lack of eternal warrior and power-armour makes them vulnerable.


They can take wings


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DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!

But the problem is that you are almost forced to take the wings because they are so amazing. If you didn't then you'd have a foot slogging expensive HQ with less than desired survivability.

Personally I love the forge and maulerfiends. But I use CSM as allies, so for my opponents to see broadsides on the backfield with a mauler running straight at them is kind of funny to me.

is it any idea to take psychic powers?

 Tomten wrote:
Daemon-princes can be alright, but the lack of eternal warrior and power-armour makes them vulnerable.


They can take wings


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DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!

Anything that can spit out loads of shots (Assault cannons, heavy bolters, autocannons ect..) and other fliers will probably down the Daemon Prince easily.

how do CSM stand against Necron flier spam?


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 MetalOxide wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
Daemon-princes can be alright, but the lack of eternal warrior and power-armour makes them vulnerable.


They can take wings


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DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!

Anything that can spit out loads of shots (Assault cannons, heavy bolters, autocannons ect..) and other fliers will probably down the Daemon Prince easily.

DP got a 5+ invulnarable save and you can give him power armor.

But the DP isn't hard to ground, and then it makes him even more vulnerable.

And giving him psyker powers is making one problem worse. You're putting a lot of points into a unit that is already costed a bit much.

And I think the Heldrake is decent against fliers. Vector striking gives you d3+1 S7 autohits against side armor. It's not bad by any means.

if your opponent shoots at your DP then you maybe saved one tank of even a whole unit


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He can just be a firemagnet if you want

I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying that it's point cost is a significant downside. That said, it can cause quite a bit of damage. The most popular options giving it powerarmor, wings, and the black mace. This thing can deal out quite a bit of pain. And really I'd suggest playing it patiently.

It is just a MC so it can still hide behind a building and out of LOS. It's not that tall and it's wings don't count towards it's model profile. It's something that can definately cause your opponent to massively change their play style.

And Everyone keeps pointing out that Railguns insta-kill it. I just want to know how often other people play against Tau?

Well i've dusted off my iron warriors and been using the new codex, so far i've not lost a game but have had a few close games against SM.

They are mid tier and can do fine in my limited experience, and as i've said before their power level is only a problem if darkangels and following codex's are on par with GK.

I hope the chaos dex sets the standard and most armies end up around the same level.

that kinda suck that DPs are not EW.
Which daemon of something is the best or better then the other?

 Tomten wrote:



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are vanilla CSM competitive?

They are, it's just they aren't showing up in the top rankings due to their being less of them and the odds favor the newer codexes winning matches.

 Tomten wrote:
if your opponent shoots at your DP then you maybe saved one tank of even a whole unit


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He can just be a firemagnet if you want

But that firemagnet is quite a chunk of points

Regarding power level - I'm quite positive we're going to see a Warhammer 8th effect on the army books. While early 8th edition army books were regarded as quite lower in their power level, as more released, it was obvious they were pretty well balanced with each other. The power books are still the books that were released in 7th edition. Give 6th edition some time for more codexes to be released.

And before anyone jumps in about the last 40k books being utterly broken - Chaos Daemons was the last book of 7th and broke the game in more ways than Necrons or Grey Knights did for 40k, and are still the top of the power scale. Ogres are an 8th edition book and up there, but are still well balanced against the other 8th books.

While I know wargamers are quick to claim the sky is falling and 'quit' the game, give it a little time. See what the trend is with the first few books. I'll bet they're going to be around the same power level as Chaos.

There are 2 lists that are "overpowered" right now. Necron fliers and guard fliers. Nothing else in either book is overpowered. Necrons even have some flat awful choices (triarch praetorians anyone?) Guess what? Chaos can also make a list that is just as strong. Take 6 heldrakes. Add in havocs. tada. YOu just made a tournament winning broken army. "Q.Q my chaos book can't field everything in it and be strong" neither can guard or necrons. If you want to play a tournament winning list you play with just the few strongest things you can field and spam them.

The only army that is "top tier" that isn't there because of their fliers is chaos daemons. And they are only that way because of an awful balance update that decided tzeentch daemons needed to be better in melee than khorne or slaanesh.

The new chaos book has a few things I wish were different about it. But in terms of the overall book i give it a solid 8 out of 10.

Poor.

It just feels like a poorly designed codex, not as bad as Phil's DE codex, but it no way a good codex.

The majority of players that hate the new CSM book are players that wanted it to be like the old 3rd chaos book, aka very powerful.

I am in line for that, but I wanted it in that vein because the 3.5 book was potentially the most VARIED of all the chaos codex's, representing all of the chaos legions, representing the chaos mutations well enough as well as the varied lines for what could be taken.

Did I want a power level like that? No, I wanted innovative chaos, Chaos is one of those things you'd expect some crazier things, more innovative powers with a Dark Mechanicus that apparently can't even figure out how to change a rhino or land raider yet the Imperium comes out with enough variants of their vehicles to fill a phonebook.

There are some thematic issues with the book, but I think how "good" it is will heavily depend on the tone of future releases.

If this is the trend for 6th ed codexes, I'll be pleased; good internal balance, lots of variety, decent flavour, though hardcover is irritating.

If, however, He Who Shall Not Be Named has not been reigned in, in terms of power creep and godawful lore writing, then this codex will struggle, not merely competitively, but in friendly settings as well.

Oh it's a solid dex all right. Solidly dull and unimaginative. Total yawnfest. Vaktathi is correct, it's a missed opportunity to make something special. It's got NOTHING to do with it's power level.

I'm more concerned about fluff myself, and am simply happy GW didn't destroy everything they were like they did with the Necrons.

 IcedAnimals wrote:
There are 2 lists that are "overpowered" right now. Necron fliers and guard fliers. Nothing else in either book is overpowered. Necrons even have some flat awful choices (triarch praetorians anyone?) Guess what? Chaos can also make a list that is just as strong. Take 6 heldrakes. Add in havocs. tada. YOu just made a tournament winning broken army. "Q.Q my chaos book can't field everything in it and be strong" neither can guard or necrons. If you want to play a tournament winning list you play with just the few strongest things you can field and spam them.

The only army that is "top tier" that isn't there because of their fliers is chaos daemons. And they are only that way because of an awful balance update that decided tzeentch daemons needed to be better in melee than khorne or slaanesh.

The new chaos book has a few things I wish were different about it. But in terms of the overall book i give it a solid 8 out of 10.

but you can take only 3 drakes as each take up a FA slot and there is no way to move them to elite or hvy support. Or are you talking about double FoC ? because that is not much help at more then 2k any imperial army can have 6 vendettas/valks .

It seems to me that CSM is not specialized to anything, like SM

Makumba wrote:

 IcedAnimals wrote:
There are 2 lists that are "overpowered" right now. Necron fliers and guard fliers. Nothing else in either book is overpowered. Necrons even have some flat awful choices (triarch praetorians anyone?) Guess what? Chaos can also make a list that is just as strong. Take 6 heldrakes. Add in havocs. tada. YOu just made a tournament winning broken army. "Q.Q my chaos book can't field everything in it and be strong" neither can guard or necrons. If you want to play a tournament winning list you play with just the few strongest things you can field and spam them.

The only army that is "top tier" that isn't there because of their fliers is chaos daemons. And they are only that way because of an awful balance update that decided tzeentch daemons needed to be better in melee than khorne or slaanesh.

The new chaos book has a few things I wish were different about it. But in terms of the overall book i give it a solid 8 out of 10.

but you can take only 3 drakes as each take up a FA slot and there is no way to move them to elite or hvy support. Or are you talking about double FoC ? because that is not much help at more then 2k any imperial army can have 6 vendettas/valks .

As can any Chaos army, in that case.

Is nobody using land raiders?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


As can any Chaos army, in that case.

yes , but that would mean you actualy get to play double foc games. most games here cap at 1999 points . and then the imperial armies have 2-3 flyer and chaos can technicly take 3 drakes , but then it lacks in troops and long range support.