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 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
One other fine point with screamers. People insist they have to move in a straight line and cannot backtrack after moving over their slashing attack target. I've never seen those rules, and think people are mixing them up with reaver jetbikes or something. Am I missing something?

To determine if you flew over a unit.

Look at where you were, and where you are. Draw a line if necesary, however yes you will go in a straight line.

There's no rule requirement for that to be true. You can move in any number of curves or backtracking if you wish.

So my Stunned flyer can move 12", back track 6" and count that as 18"?

But, to answer the question, only screamers who move over the actual unit get the attack. Not the entire unit.

What does stunned flyer movement have to do with how a jetbike moves during it's turbo-boost?

Because, he mentioned backtracking? If you can backtrack and have it count as movement, what's stopping people with flyers from doing the same? It's called an 'example' of how that logic fails.

In answer to the original question, there is no restriction on how you use your 24" move mentioned in the jetbikes section of the main rulebook, and there is no mention of having to move straight in the white dwarf update with regard to the slashing attack.

Therefore I'd agree that you can wiggle around and backtrack as much as you like as long as you stay at 24" total movement, and there's no requirement of drawing lines from where you were to where you ended up, if you moved over a unit at all then it suffers the slashing attack according to the white dwarf update. The only affect of the final position you end in is wound allocation, therefore if anything you could use the slashing attack to 'snipe' models by purposefully ending your move on the side of the unit they are on.

If every seeker is measured in such a way that still passes over the unit, curved in whatever way to make it possible, fine. And then you pick them up, and move them individually and each is measured so it moves legally and remains in cohesion, fine again. But if you just move them in a straight line from where they started and ended without the extra effort and showing what you are doing, no, only the two seekers that passed over gets the hits. I'm not going to assume they all moved in a magical way that had them all hit a unit, that, if moved in a straight line, only has one or two hit.

Crazyterran wrote:
So my Stunned flyer can move 12", back track 6" and count that as 18"?

No, because Flyers can only move forward in a straight line. So there's no logic failure, just your misunderstanding of the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
So my Stunned flyer can move 12", back track 6" and count that as 18"?

No, because Flyers can only move forward in a straight line. So there's no logic failure, just your misunderstanding of the rules.

Yes, it can go forward 12", rotate 360 degrees, move back 6", and rotate another 360 degrees if it has a special rule that allows it to rotate 720 degrees per turn while zooming instead of the normal 90 degrees per turn.

Only flyers and fmc have rotation restrictions, everything else has 360 degree movement capability which should allow backtracking as long as nothing specifically forbids it.

 schadenfreude wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
So my Stunned flyer can move 12", back track 6" and count that as 18"?

No, because Flyers can only move forward in a straight line. So there's no logic failure, just your misunderstanding of the rules.

Yes, it can go forward 12", rotate 360 degrees, move back 6", and rotate another 360 degrees if it has a special rule that allows it to rotate 720 degrees per turn while zooming instead of the normal 90 degrees per turn.

Only flyers and fmc have rotation restrictions, everything else has 360 degree movement capability which should allow backtracking as long as nothing specifically forbids it.

Yes, that's my point.

In my case he couldn't since the Bloodletters were touching a table edge (back rank) and all spread out 2" apart... Only at most two Screamers could physically move over my squad.

If they were close enough, each Screamer could fly up to and just over the unit of Bloodletters, and then fly back the way they came. They've got 24" to play with; as long each model passes over the targeted unit and ends its move 1" away, that's a legit flyover.

Against DE jetbikes, OTOH, you can often use the table edge or another unit behind you to protect you from getting Bladevaned.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
In my case he couldn't since the Bloodletters were touching a table edge (back rank) and all spread out 2" apart... Only at most two Screamers could physically move over my squad.

If he moves over a fraction of one base, he can strike. Unless you were at the max range of his turbo boost, there's no reason he couldn't move over.

He was very close to maximum range.

Okay, cool. So getting back to the original question, if only some of his models had enough movement to actually pass over your unit and end their move 1" away, then only those models would get to deal hits.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Okay, cool. So getting back to the original question, if only some of his models had enough movement to actually pass over your unit and end their move 1" away, then only those models would get to deal hits.

Yep. It's also a problem when the target unit is near the edge of range and the screamers need to spread out to avoid being clumped next to flamers or other templates.

Well, if we're talking retribution, being at the end of your range also means you'll be close enough to be rapid-fired and/or charged (if it's a unit that doesn't mind fighting Screamers; maybe TH/SS termies).

Yeah we have a local guy that uses them a lot. He deep strikes down, then makes his turbo boost and zips to the target and back a bit, doing his hits.

Same tactic was used at feast of blades. Screamers would move up to 12" away then turboboost forward and back technically moving over the squad. (you can move the back row of screamers first then land them in front of the other portion of the units that then fly over and back)

its cheezy, but seems to be allowed officially until FAQ'd otherwise.

Its a shenanigans tactic at best. Its a hole in the rules that they neither allow nor disallow it.

Flying to and back IS, by definition, flying over. They just didn't clarify that you need to pass across and end on the other side like with reaver jet bikes. They need to, though

It was clarified previously. It was probably just an oversight this edition. Being able to effectively not move and slash attack is lame... Really lame.

Screamers hit @ what ? Str 4? Who cares let them stay close, I'll eat them up soon after.

Moving back and forth over the same target seems un-legit....

TheSwarmLives wrote:
Screamers hit @ what ? Str 4? Who cares let them stay close, I'll eat them up soon after.

Moving back and forth over the same target seems un-legit....

They hit at S4 on their slash attack. They hit at S5 AP2 on their normal melee.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It was clarified previously. It was probably just an oversight this edition. Being able to effectively not move and slash attack is lame... Really lame.

Where was it clarified previously? I can't remember that.

Most likeky 4th and-or 5th. I don't have these rulebooks with me though but I do rember it distinctly.

But if it's not mentioned in this edition, is it an oversight or an intentional change?

By RAW, there is no requirement to move in a straight line when turbo boosting, and there is no requirement for the Slash Attack to target a unit directly between the Screamers' start and end points, so it's perfectly fine (from a rules perspective) to fly over and back from the target.

Think of it as kind of like a pseudo shooting attack that also allows the unit to move and if won't seem as overpowered

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Most likeky 4th and-or 5th. I don't have these rulebooks with me though but I do rember it distinctly.

Neither 4th or 5th had this clarification

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Most likeky 4th and-or 5th. I don't have these rulebooks with me though but I do rember it distinctly.

Neither 4th or 5th had this clarification

Also neither 4th or 5th is the current 6th.

If you are playing with 6th edition rules, you don't look for Rogue Trader to tell how your bolter is fired (quite differently in fact).

Indeed, just pointing out that there was no "clarification" (change) of what "over" means. Just the same as you could fly in circles to get a skimmers cover save in 4th and 5th (and 6th) you could fly "over" by moving 1mm over and backtrack in those editions. Just there wasnt really a benefit to doing so until Necron 5th edition.

In fantasy you have to move completely through and out the other side, for e..g. terradon rocks, hexwraith, but fantasy is not 40k...

There have been rulings or rules in the past mandating a certain minimum physical displacement; 5th didn't require it for skimmer cover saves, but did to determine how hard a vehicle was to hit in assault. And as previously-noted, it had such a rule for turbo-boostig bikes and jetbikes. IIRC 4th ed had a FAQ requiring skimmers to physically displace over 6" to get the "always glance" benefit.

The fact that there HAVE been such rules in the past, and there IS currently such a rule for DE Reaver Jetbikes, makes me more comfortable with allowing back & forth for the Screamers. GW clearly COULD have put such a requirement into their rules if they wanted.

It's honestly only particularly powerful on the turn of the drop. Any other turn, you're sacrificing your ability to assault if you want the turbo-boost, so there is a tradeoff.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The fact that there HAVE been such rules in the past, and there IS currently such a rule for DE Reaver Jetbikes, makes me more comfortable with allowing back & forth for the Screamers. GW clearly COULD have put such a requirement into their rules if they wanted.

Can you clarify this statement. The Jetbikes require a marking of a start point and a straight line to an end point. (You can pick different models in the unit though for the points). What ruling or FAQ makes you think the back and forth would be allowed ?

He's saying the fact that they worded it like that specifically for the jet bikes means they could have for the Screamers as well. And they didn't.

Fragile wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The fact that there HAVE been such rules in the past, and there IS currently such a rule for DE Reaver Jetbikes, makes me more comfortable with allowing back & forth for the Screamers. GW clearly COULD have put such a requirement into their rules if they wanted.

Can you clarify this statement. The Jetbikes require a marking of a start point and a straight line to an end point. (You can pick different models in the unit though for the points). What ruling or FAQ makes you think the back and forth would be allowed ?

I don't see anything in the BRB about jetbikes doing that, so it isn't a condition of being a jetbike. If a certain race has a jetbike that works like that in their own codex it certainly would not apply to units from another codex.

Kevlar wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The fact that there HAVE been such rules in the past, and there IS currently such a rule for DE Reaver Jetbikes, makes me more comfortable with allowing back & forth for the Screamers. GW clearly COULD have put such a requirement into their rules if they wanted.

Can you clarify this statement. The Jetbikes require a marking of a start point and a straight line to an end point. (You can pick different models in the unit though for the points). What ruling or FAQ makes you think the back and forth would be allowed ?

I don't see anything in the BRB about jetbikes doing that, so it isn't a condition of being a jetbike. If a certain race has a jetbike that works like that in their own codex it certainly would not apply to units from another codex.

5th edition rulebook says they have to go 18" in a straight line to gain a cover save.
I think the DE rulebook says something about a straight line for bladevanes on reaver jetbikes.

6th ed & deamon codex never mentions needing a straight line for screamers..

Right.

For Reaver Jetbike Bladevane attacks, there is CURRENTLY a requirement to draw a line between the starting position and ending position of the unit's movement, and you're only allowed to hit a unit along that line.

In 5th edition Turbo-boosting required that the bike unit end its move at least 18" from where it started.

Also in 5th edition, the actual displacement distance of a vehicle was used to determine how hard it was to hit in close combat.

There are currently and have been in the past rules which did require that a unit move a certain minimum distance or do a flyover attack on a unit along a straight line path. The fact that the Screamers aren't written with such a requirement should be indicative that they don't have one.