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I would like Ward to make codex IG. the codex is getting a bit old right now , it would be nice to have other stuff to play , not just the same stuff every week.

Well, the most out-of-date codex is actually the 2005 BT followed by 2006 Tau and Eldar. 2010 codices (is that how you write it in plural?) have a LOT of line to stand in.

Who should do it? BT might fit ward, but please don't let him write Tau or Eldar, these guys should actually be rational unlike his "madness is an understatement" GK. (while again, that line of thinking might actually fits BT, they are about as zealous.)


The first thing they should make though, before minding codex updates or new game versions or whatnot is to shift the godamn sisters to plastic. I know they are not an optimal army, and their fluff is a tiny bit silly, but half my gaming club actually had SOB as one of the armies they considered to get, and got deterred only by the metal models (myself included. they are the only imperial army I actually like other then the "make your own" space marines.)

Ward for all rules

 Kaldor wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Isn't Kelly responsible for the Space Wolves codex? The wolf wolfborn riding a wolf with a wolf charm and a wolf wolf wolfy wolf? He's at least as bad as Ward when it comes to background.

He is. And as most people have already stated, most of that equipment was already in the SW fluff

It's not just naming conventions either. Those I can deal with. Exploding a void whale? Riding a bike through a Titan? Vect's appalling background? Kelly's track record is certainly no better than Ward. I'm not terribly familiar with all his work, but the fact that he turned Vikings in Space who hate wizards into a board-edge-hugging gunline, always led by a wizard is pretty bizarre.

Exploding rediculous things like a Titan by riding a bike through it's void shields fits perfectly for Orks though.
You're talking about the guys who make their guns fire bullets because they think it does.

Vect is very much like Cersi Lannister. He thinks himself to be the most intelligent & devious of all time, and his background is mostly written from his perspective in order to prove it.
But, when you get to other bits that aren't so much from his point of view, you can see that he's really losing it. Lady Malys for example is ready to knife him in the back at any moment, and Vect is pretty much oblivious to her.
Like Cersi, he thinks that he can keep his position simply through fear and intimidation, but his hold over his race is beginning to slip.

As for the whole 'black hole in a box' bit that certain people keep bemoaning... If it was say an Imperial or Tau or Tyranid character doing such, then sure, it's stupid. But this is Eldar doing such things! They're as old as the fething Necrontyr! They're technology is badass and can do seemingly impossible things, so sure, containing a mini-black hole isn't that much of a stretch.

And where the hell did this idea that Space Wolves hate psykers come from?! They distrust and hate 'warp magic', but they have no problems at all with their own tribal shamans & Rune Priests because they believe their powers are grounded in Fenris' native lore. Yes, SW's still look upon their own Rune Priests with some distrust, but they don't hate all 'wizards', just the kind who openly use the more chaotic or alien magics of the warp itself.

And honestly, saying, "Well Kelly turned SW's into a gunline army becuase of Longfangs" is like saying, "Well Ward turned Ultramarines into all hammernators and mass meltagun toting loonies." The fething player base did those things! A couple people kicked some major backside with those lists, put 'em up on the intertubes and braged about it, then the mindless masses of sheep copy/pasted it.
The community needs to take some resposibility as well for the state of the game. Sure, Missilefang spam is a competitive list, but since has Kelly been twisting arms and forcing people to *always* play that way?!

Experiment 626 wrote:
And where the hell did this idea that Space Wolves hate psykers come from?! They distrust and hate 'warp magic', but they have no problems at all with their own tribal shamans & Rune Priests because they believe their powers are grounded in Fenris' native lore. Yes, SW's still look upon their own Rune Priests with some distrust, but they don't hate all 'wizards', just the kind who openly use the more chaotic or alien magics of the warp itself.

What's ironic about it is that the tribal/rune magic that the RPs practice is just Fenris own flavor of Psykic shenanigans. Ahriman, aka Sorceror target numero dos, even chills in the great ocean(warp) with a SW Rune Priest. Knowing Ahriman, they probably drank wine and discussed Neiztche. The reality is, the whole "STOP THE WARP DOWNLOADING" thing was more of an anti-Magnus deal. Leman and Magnus have never really seen eye to eye (pun intended).

Experiment 626 wrote:


As for the whole 'black hole in a box' bit that certain people keep bemoaning... If it was say an Imperial or Tau or Tyranid character doing such, then sure, it's stupid. But this is Eldar doing such things! They're as old as the fething Necrontyr! They're technology is badass and can do seemingly impossible things, so sure, containing a mini-black hole isn't that much of a stretch.

/shrug

It's always a question of relative.

Eldar have near-magic technology and throwing around Black Holes is a.o.k. with you (Red Scorpions do similar things in the FW Badab War books btw.)? Fine. But then don't bemoan Calgar using a Primarch/Deamon artefact to withstand the sword-blow of an Avatar. Primarch Artefacts have as much claim to "it's practically magic" as Eldar-tech does (and unlike Kelly's Black Holes, Guilliman's Gauntlets actually pre-date 5th Edition).

If you're ok with this sort of loopy-technology-as-magic-tech, you need to be fair and accept it across the board. If you hate it, you should hate it accross the board. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

But if you hate it in Ward's books, but accept it in Kelly's books, you're a hypocrite trying to perpetuate a silly internet-meme, not judging the works of different authors without bias.

Experiment 626 wrote:


The community needs to take some resposibility as well for the state of the game. Sure, Missilefang spam is a competitive list, but since has Kelly been twisting arms and forcing people to *always* play that way?!

Again. Measure things by the same benchmark. If you place the blame for Longfang-Spam, etc.. on the community, not the Codex writers, fine. But than you need to do the same for people fielding (allegedly) abusive lists for Fantasy Daemons or 40K Grey Knights.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


As for the whole 'black hole in a box' bit that certain people keep bemoaning... If it was say an Imperial or Tau or Tyranid character doing such, then sure, it's stupid. But this is Eldar doing such things! They're as old as the fething Necrontyr! They're technology is badass and can do seemingly impossible things, so sure, containing a mini-black hole isn't that much of a stretch.

/shrug

It's always a question of relative.

Eldar have near-magic technology and throwing around Black Holes is a.o.k. with you (Red Scorpions do similar things in the FW Badab War books btw.)? Fine. But then don't bemoan Calgar using a Primarch/Deamon artefact to withstand the sword-blow of an Avatar. Primarch Artefacts have as much claim to "it's practically magic" as Eldar-tech does (and unlike Kelly's Black Holes, Guilliman's Gauntlets actually pre-date 5th Edition).

If you're ok with this sort of loopy-technology-as-magic-tech, you need to be fair and accept it across the board. If you hate it, you should hate it accross the board. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

But if you hate it in Ward's books, but accept it in Kelly's books, you're a hypocrite trying to perpetuate a silly internet-meme, not judging the works of different authors without bias.

I've never once complained about Calgar's gauntlets or Primarch artifacts. Calgar beating up an Avatar? It's OTT sure, but then it's still within the realms of plausible OTT for 40k since;
a) Calgar has been a badass mofo since how long now?! (ie: forever!)
b) The 'Avatars' of the Craftworlds are simply shards of the Greater Avatar of Khaine that Slaanesh spanked silly waaaaaaay back when. Kinda like the White Council being able to dominate and defeat Sauron the Necromancer - the current 41st mellenium Avatars are weaker versions of the once great version.

My one and only complaint about Ward's SM codex is the bit about every non-Smurf chapter either wanting to be Ultras, or else those who deviate from the codex are filthy heretics who are dying off.
It basically tells people who want to play a divergent chapter or create their own that 'they're doing it wrong'.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


The community needs to take some resposibility as well for the state of the game. Sure, Missilefang spam is a competitive list, but since has Kelly been twisting arms and forcing people to *always* play that way?!

Again. Measure things by the same benchmark. If you place the blame for Longfang-Spam, etc.. on the community, not the Codex writers, fine. But than you need to do the same for people fielding (allegedly) abusive lists for Fantasy Daemons or 40K Grey Knights.

It's still a half-and-half blame system though, with at times greater blame falling on the author in question.

Yes, Kelly most likely should have costed Grey Hunters at 16pts/model - same a Tactical Marine since both have equal advantages vs disadvantages to eachother. It would aso have given a slight break to the more specialist Blood Claws and made them a relevent choice.
Sure, Longfangs are likely undercosted, but it doesn't help when their Devastator equivalent are overcosted. (Besides, I've never understood the silly amount of, "OMG! Missilefangs are BROKENZ!11!!!!1!" cries either... No ablaitive bodies to soak-up wounds? Small squads? Deep Strikers and/or 24" movement capable units eat the poor buggers for breakfest and lunch!)

However, Sometimes authors get too carried away and just feth the whole system...
Warp Quake didn't need to be 12" to do it's job. 6" as it's almost identical Necron version is, would still make it powerful vs Deep Strikers. (ie: at 6" radius, Warp Quake would still prevent Flamer alpha-strikes from wrecking face.)
Yes, you as a player are a filthy, dirty hobo for spaming Warp Quake vs a Daemon player and making it physically impossible for them to even deploy. (and you most certainly deserve to burn in a car fire if you then pull RAW and 'juggle' Misplaced result units between quake zones to ensure getting either 'unit wiped out' or 'back into reserves' results! )

It still doesn't change the fact that Ward broke that critical game mechanic by writting it as 12" however. He's still just as responsible as the wipe who then abuses the crap outa that game-breaking gimmick.

 sudojoe wrote:
Is it too much to hope that someone like Dan Abnett would write the fluff for it?

Terrible idea have you not read an abnett book? man does not have a clue how to stay within the canon of 40k, you think wards fluff is bad abnetts would be a thousand times worse.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

As much as I like ADB, Dan Abnet, or Graham McNeill, I dont think they are going to join GW and write a codex. A shame because their fluff would at least present a nice picture that doesnt have the stupidty of Ward or Kelly's Space Wolves

Graham McNeill did co-author the 4th Edition Space Marines Codex.

You know, the one written mainly to advertise his Ultramarines books. The Codex filled literally with nothing but Ultramarines fluff and imagery. The Space Marine Codex before Mat Ward toned down the Ultramarine fetish by about 50% and actually included things like Salamanders, White Scars, Crimson Fists, etc.. .

I did know that actually. However, I would have to disagree with you on Ward toned it down. When he has statements like any chapter that does not follow Guilliman and his teachings are shunned by the Imperium and drastically falling in size. Its the way its written that is the issue, the 4th edition is more of "it lacks other chapters" where 5th edition is more of "the other chapters simply are not as good"

Now I could be wrong about this but was the Scout Sgt in 4th? The one who is so good he trains scouts for OTHER chapters? Ward got a lot of critisim for stuff like that so when McNeill wrote his Ultramarine novels he took them a very different direction. He presented all the SCs (they all show up in his books, well at least in the last one) and shows that they are good, but they are now where near the best. Basic marines from the Raven Guard put that same scout Sgt. to shame, the Librarian is so powerful that he has trouble performing smaller task because controlling his power taxes him greatly, Malgar learns that blindly following the codex is a horrible idea when he gets his fleet destroyed because the enemy KNEW he would perform a codex move.



Thats all I meant, I felt McNeill would do a better job writing the individual characters and wouldnt present the UM as the greatest space marines ever. His time as a Black Library author and writing about OTHER chapters/legions has helped changed his writing style so if he wrote another codex Im sure everyone would REALLY like it (unless you hate McNeill's books, I know there are a few UM fans who dont like him)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
Is it too much to hope that someone like Dan Abnett would write the fluff for it?

Terrible idea have you not read an abnett book? man does not have a clue how to stay within the canon of 40k, you think wards fluff is bad abnetts would be a thousand times worse.

Not even close. Ward fluff is poorly written and/or fails to make sense.

When Abnett feths it its him fething up and writing something that isnt canon, it at least makes sense though. If you had only a limited knowledge of 40k you wouldnt scratch your head and say "wait what?"


Also remember that most people love Abnett so claiming him to be worse than Ward kind of alienates you from everyone. Try the "I disagree, I think Abnett is a bad writer because...." approach. You get your point in without getting people to turn against you

Experiment 626 wrote:
My one and only complaint about Ward's SM codex is the bit about every non-Smurf chapter either wanting to be Ultras,

Blame Rick Preistley, not Ward. Ward didn't start that crap, he's just continuing it. That bit of fluff goes all the way back to Codex Ultramarines.