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 Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:
Things I would have liked:

Legion traits for Chaos Lords, for example, if you take the Night Lords trait you get the Lord of Terror War Lord trait instead of rolling randomly & raptors become troops (see that was easy) Or if you buy the Alpha Legion trait you get the Master of Deception War Lord trait and your chosen gain infiltrate. Etc. Allowing those who see a legion as more than a paint scheme to have rules they actually have to pay for.

Also, I would like it if your general getting a mark unlocked god specific items. For example, if your general had the mark of slaanesh he could buy himself the slaaneshi weapons under the Noise Marine listing and maybe his havocs and helbrutes could replace lascannons with the Blastmaster.

Amen.....I wish you could have passed this clue on to Kelly so that he may have had some sort of idea......

Fair play mate, well done

 blood reaper wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
the plasma cannon wouldnt kill that unit easily if your playing anyone who actually knows how to play the game no one smart would let you get more then 2 hits and even then with MoT theres a good chance one will survive.. congrats your unit that can easily kill my terminator unit racked up an impressive one kill while lets say what 5 man units? my ten plasma shot just ganked 3 or 4 of your terminators nice trade off!

Until you fail the LD test cause you just lost 2 of your 5 man squad! And then you realise that your now running away Terminator unit is about to gunned down.

That or they have Stormshields.

yep totally i dont think thats very much of a risk ld 9 isnt as horrible as you think.
and if your terminators have stormshileds then they dont have a a ranged weapon meaning you got an impressive no kills from shooting and your still 2 terminators down and i never had to make a ld check correct?

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
the plasma cannon wouldnt kill that unit easily if your playing anyone who actually knows how to play the game no one smart would let you get more then 2 hits and even then with MoT theres a good chance one will survive.. congrats your unit that can easily kill my terminator unit racked up an impressive one kill while lets say what 5 man units? my ten plasma shot just ganked 3 or 4 of your terminators nice trade off!

Until you fail the LD test cause you just lost 2 of your 5 man squad! And then you realise that your now running away Terminator unit is about to gunned down.

That or they have Stormshields.

yep totally i dont think thats very much of a risk ld 9 isnt as horrible as you think.
and if your terminators have stormshileds then they dont have a a ranged weapon meaning you got an impressive no kills from shooting and your still 2 terminators down and i never had to make a ld check correct?

Nope, I'm just stating that Mark of Tzeentch won't save you from much, especially when it's a 5 points upgrade bringing you to 110 points for three models base. That's 36 points per model, while normal Termies are 40 points per model. Your now at 2+ 4++, but are only 4 points less and don't have fearless, when you'd never have to take the LD test in the first place.

Edit: To have those combi weapons too, you'd pay five points, making a Terminator 41 points, now more expensive than a basic Space Marine terminator!

but you have a plasma cannon so the unit i said is still cheaper lol and more effective assuming i dont fail a ld test ill most likely make what 75% of the time ill take my chances.


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plus even the new mace/stormshield combo in the new DA dex were rumoured to be even more expensive then normal twerminators.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
but you have a plasma cannon so the unit i said is still cheaper lol and more effective assuming i dont fail a ld test ill most likely make what 75% of the time ill take my chances.

Yet the unit is still going to loose when it's confronted by a well kitted out Dark Angel command squad, yeah your Combi-Weapons are nice, until that one shot weapon upgrade isn't going to do much. Five Combi-Plasma's costs 27 points, while a Plasma Cannon will cost around the same for more than one shot.

Edit: Of coarse they will be, they are WS5 and have the Smash special rule. I'm done arguing with you, it's becoming tiresome.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
but you have a plasma cannon so the unit i said is still cheaper lol and more effective assuming i dont fail a ld test ill most likely make what 75% of the time ill take my chances.

Yet the unit is still going to loose when it's confronted by a well kitted out Dark Angel command squad, yeah your Combi-Weapons are nice, until that one shot weapon upgrade isn't going to do much. Five Combi-Plasma's costs 27 points, while a Plasma Cannon will cost around the same for more than one shot.

Edit: Of coarse they will be, they are WS5 and have the Smash special rule. I'm done arguing with you, it's becoming tiresome.

yep a nice kitted out command squad which will only cost a few hundred points more i know it hurts being wrong its okay though!

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
but you have a plasma cannon so the unit i said is still cheaper lol and more effective assuming i dont fail a ld test ill most likely make what 75% of the time ill take my chances.

Yet the unit is still going to loose when it's confronted by a well kitted out Dark Angel command squad, yeah your Combi-Weapons are nice, until that one shot weapon upgrade isn't going to do much. Five Combi-Plasma's costs 27 points, while a Plasma Cannon will cost around the same for more than one shot.

Edit: Of coarse they will be, they are WS5 and have the Smash special rule. I'm done arguing with you, it's becoming tiresome.

yep a nice kitted out command squad which will only cost a few hundred points more i know it hurts being wrong its okay though!

(Please use apostrophes and capital letters in you're posts, it makes it easier to bare with your childish comments)

5 Chaos Terminators 209 points
Mark of Tzeentch 25 points
Five Combi-Plasma's 27 points

Nice one shot snooty unit that will then be shot to death in the opponents shooting phase, or will be charged and tied up. The Terminator command squad may cost more, but it will be far more versatile than the example given above.

Here's what I think should be fixed. Honestly I would play with the new Chaos Space Marine book if it was exactly like this. Some points costs could be changed, sure, but honestly I would play the everliving gak out of the book. This is just for the Chaos Space Marine troop choice.

Marks:
Khorne: Preferred Enemy (all)
Tzeentch: Brotherhood of Sorcerers, Must choose a power from the Tzeentch Discipline. If an independent Character, +1 Psychic Mastery
Nurgle: +1 T
Slaanesh: +I Initiative
Undivided: Stubborn

Chaos Space Marines-70 points
1 Aspiring Champion
4 Chaos Space Marines
Wargear: The same
Special Rules:
Sacred If a Marked unit has a unit composition equal to the Sacred Number of its god or a multiple thereof, the Aspiring Champion is entitled to a free Chaos Boon.
Champion of Chaos (Champion only)

Up to 15 Additional Marines: 12 points per model
May take a CCW for 2 additional points, or a Great Weapon for 3 additional points. (Great Weapon: Strength+1, AP5)
May replace Bolter with BP+CCW for free

Must take one of the following Marks:
Khorne: +4 PPM
Tzeentch: +2 PPM
Nurgle: +4 PPM
Slaanesh: +2 PPM
Undivided: +3 PPM

Dominant Chaos Attribute: +2 points per model

Dominant Chaos Attributes:
Chaos Space Marines are heavily mutated individuals. Some are more mutated than others. A unit with a Dominant Chaos Attribute rolls a single D6 on this table and then applies this result before deployment.

1. The unit has the Fear special rule (Horrific Appearance)
2. The unit has +1 Strength (Inhuman Power)
3. The unit has the Fleet special rule (Insane Speed)
4. The unit has the Rage special rule (Warp Frenzied)
5. The unit has the Daemon special rule (Pseudo Daemonhood)
6. Take the Dominant Chaos Attribute of your choice (Favored)

Veterans of the Long War: +1 Point per model

Any unit with the Veterans of the Long War may purchase one of the following Special Rules:
Tank Hunters: +2 point per model
Infiltrate: +2 points per model (as long as the unit doesn't take a Rhino)
Deep Strike: +3 points per model (as long as the unit doesn't take a Rhino)

All other options remain the same

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

Just as effectively as any other Terminator unit? Oh goody

Oh wait, my Champion is paying almost double for every war gear option he has, has to challenge and we pay how many points for fearless?

Yeah, your Terminator argument isn't going to win anyone over.

Yep our terminators suck i hate having every combi weapon availible for 5 pts apiece which doesnt even take em up to normal terminator price at that and even then for 5 points you can ave MoT for only 1 point more then a normal terminator and can pick from the four power weapons.


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 McNinja wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

are you serious? read what the man said. Heck, read what I said. How the dickens are CSM "cheap" terminators supposed to kill anything when the things they try to kill have far superior weapons? CSM terminators are only cheap because they don't have ANYTHING to start with. As I said in my post you clearly ignored, they come out to rather expensive terminators when you actually add things together. Just because they're less than 40 points per terminator does not by any stretch of your imagination mean they are better than terminators with freaking plasma cannons.

You listening to me?
for 1 point more then a normal terminator which using your example the unit would still be cheaper in the end because of terminators taking a plasma cannon
can have a better invul and combi plasma which would eliminate the terminator unit you speak of quite easily.

You mean before or after they get to take their 3+ storm shield saves? Sure, terminators can have a better invuln than tactical terminators, but against even SM assault terminators, they don't compare.


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Suddenly I have this feeling like there's going to be a bunch of Chaos SM stuff released via WD next year. That's really the only reason to not include things like Iron Warriors or Night Lords or Alpha Legion stuff in this new codex.

 McNinja wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

Just as effectively as any other Terminator unit? Oh goody

Oh wait, my Champion is paying almost double for every war gear option he has, has to challenge and we pay how many points for fearless?

Yeah, your Terminator argument isn't going to win anyone over.

Yep our terminators suck i hate having every combi weapon availible for 5 pts apiece which doesnt even take em up to normal terminator price at that and even then for 5 points you can ave MoT for only 1 point more then a normal terminator and can pick from the four power weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McNinja wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

are you serious? read what the man said. Heck, read what I said. How the dickens are CSM "cheap" terminators supposed to kill anything when the things they try to kill have far superior weapons? CSM terminators are only cheap because they don't have ANYTHING to start with. As I said in my post you clearly ignored, they come out to rather expensive terminators when you actually add things together. Just because they're less than 40 points per terminator does not by any stretch of your imagination mean they are better than terminators with freaking plasma cannons.

You listening to me?
for 1 point more then a normal terminator which using your example the unit would still be cheaper in the end because of terminators taking a plasma cannon
can have a better invul and combi plasma which would eliminate the terminator unit you speak of quite easily.

You mean before or after they get to take their 3+ storm shield saves? Sure, terminators can have a better invuln than tactical terminators, but against even SM assault terminators, they don't compare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suddenly I have this feeling like there's going to be a bunch of Chaos SM stuff released via WD next year. That's really the only reason to not include things like Iron Warriors or Night Lords or Alpha Legion stuff in this new codex.

Well if you do the math 10 plasma shots does kill 2-3 stormshield termminators and even then the stormshield terminators dont have heavy weapons so theres no plasmacannon in that unit a darn plasma cannon isnt the godlike weapon you seem to be thinking it is.


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@ blood reaper a terminator unit that shows up and gets shot in the opponents shooting phase then tied up? WOW just like every other terminator unit that has ever stepped foot on the table with the exception that they can shoot something first.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:


Well if you do the math 10 plasma shots does kill 2-3 stormshield termminators and even then the stormshield terminators dont have heavy weapons so theres no plasmacannon in that unit a darn plasma cannon isnt the godlike weapon you seem to be thinking it is.

No, but it is S7 AP2, meaning it wounds on 2s and you have to take your invuln save, which is only a 50% chance to pass with MoT included. So while a PC may not be wiping the floor with Chaos Terminators, those Thunder Hammers will, forcing you to take your invuln save, which is not as good as the storm shield save.

all what 2 maybe 3 terminators you have left and then what at best if my chaos guys have axes which why wouldnt they? if you hit with everything and would everytime and i fail every save then we probably whipe eachother out AT BEST.

Oh and I forgot that I would also bring back Chaos Undivided . . .why did they get rid of that exactly? Space constraints for bad fluff? Undivided DPs would be nice too.

p.s. why are we arguing about termies? We got cheap base models or worse version of good ones. . . I really thought we'd get them shields . . .sucks


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@ Lovepug13 Thanks for the reply

@ Vladsimpaler

I really like your ideas, very flavorful. People would be screaming 3.5! 3.5! But it still wouldn't be that broken and frankly in your units you PAY for everything so that is cool. Less randomness is always nice, but I think your 1d6 beats their's.

Thousand Sons could quickly become overpowered with too generous buffs. I think relentless instead of slow and purposeful and 22PPM is quite enough. Also buff the Discipline of Tzeentch and that sorceror is a lot more scary. Lower the cost of Icon of Flame.

Plague Marines are already quite good enough thank you.

Khorne Berzerkers should get chainaxes baseline at no points increase. Give them their niche.

Warp Talons could use a slight points decrease.

Defiler seems a tad overpriced. So does the Helbrute. Chaos Land Raiders should get the Infernal thingy again they had in 3.5 that replaced power of the machine spirit, they aren't worth their points.

Mark of Tzeentch seems overpriced for a number of units. Same cost as +1 toughness really?

Ahriman should have a spell familiar at his points cost.

Abaddon seems pricy for what you get.

Discipline of Tzeentch could use a bit more punch. Doombolt is decent. Breath of Change should in no way be 2 warp charge at its current strength. Either 1 warp charge or more deadly. Boon of Mutation should either be able to turn you into a spawn OR do S4 hits to you, not BOTH! Tzeentch's Firestorm needs.. sometihng. Maybe D6+2S. Maybe large blast, or extra hits at the power's strength for every unsaved wound instead of model removed.

The codex is decent, these are just minor things.

How about allowing the LR to have Hades ACs or Ectoplasm Cannons? Both for 25 points per sponson or the turret.

Most of the new Chaos Space Marine codex is fine, there's just a few issues which make some of the units or options either useless or underpowered enough to not warrant taking.

For example, in my opinion the Mark of Tzeentch itself is overpriced on a few units, particularly units which do not have an invulnerable save. At 2 points per model it just isn't worth it for a negligible 6+ invulnerable save when I can take +1 Initiative or Rage/Counter-attack for the same price (or +1 Toughness for one point more).

Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis on the Chaos Boon Table could have been handled a bit better, especially in regards to Independent Characters.

Daemonic Possession is virtually useless for transports. It costs 15 points, isn't guaranteed to ignore Shaken/Stunned results anymore, and has a chance to eat one of your own units randomly to regain a Hull Point. A Rhino with Daemonic Possession could end up eating more than it's own point cost in your own units. It's just overly complicated rules for the sake of "fluffy rules," rules which didn't turn out very well, both problems of which could have easily been fixed by simply giving the vehicle It Will Not Die.

Daemon Princes could have used the Eternal Warrior special rule, right now they're just a risky points sink.

Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerers, and Daemon Princes should have all had Master of the Traitors and Master of the Rubricae.

Possessed should have had their mutations as costed options, the randomization kills the reliability and, thus, playability of the unit. I'm cool with the randomization of the Boon Table, but I despise this kind of randomization as it makes units less reliable and, thus, less useful.

Mutilators could have done without Slow and Purposeful.

Warp Talons need a lot of work. They just simply aren't worth their points. While their lore is phenomenal, their special rules and combat effectiveness really don't represent that. Base models should have had 2 Attacks right off the bat, their melee weapons should have been a bit better than just lightning claws (unless standard lightning claws have the ability to rend reality apart as well), and perhaps the ability to perform a "Warp Shunt" once per game would have made them far more intimidating and far more worth the points.

Where's the thunder hammers? The Legions clearly had access to thunder hammers, so why did we get no thunder hammer love? I can understand not having jet bikes and speeders, but the Traitor Legions suddenly losing or forgetting how to use their thunder hammers doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

Helbrutes seem lackluster to me. They said that they wanted to differentiate the Chaos Dreadnoughts from the Loyalist Dreadnoughts and while they succeed in it's appearance and name they horribly failed with it's rules as it's simply a copy-paste of a Dreadnought with additional (irritating) special rules. The special rules wouldn't even have been so irritating had the Helbrute not been prone to Immobilizing itself in close combat after losing a Hull Point. My suggestion to GW next time around is to actually make it completely different from a Dreadnought, make it a Monstrous Creature instead.

Apart from those beefs and the exclusion of certain units (no Cult Terminators, no ability to have Cult Lords, etc) and wargear (no God-specific gift sections make it feel like the Chaos Gods aren't anywhere near as important anymore) I actually enjoyed the new Codex. Yes, it's not Grey Knights or Imperial Guard level of power, but we're missing the point that apart from minor issues the Codex is actually fairly well balanced. None of the units stand out as overpowered and most of the units don't stand out as underpowered or useless either, which I think is a great achievement on GW's part. I'd rather have an army where most of the units are useful and balanced over an army that has a few overpowered units with everything else being pointless in comparison.

Here is a solution to solve the mutilator crisis:

-Replace the slow and purposeful rule with the following rule:

Bloodlust: As the Mutilators seep from the warp into reality, there Bloodlust overcomes their physical features as their hatred for the enemy gives them the only thought in their head: "Kill and destroy".

When the mutilators arrive from deep strike from reserve they can assault the enemy from the turn they deepstrike, but must pass a dangerous terrain test for each model in the squad before the Overwatch sub-phase. (as there physical bodies struggle to adjust to the Mutilators hatred which sometimes dosnt work out for them).

Mark of Tzeentch: Allows a reroll on the lore chart when generating psyker abilities

Thousand Sons: Psyker Mastery Level 2, allow one ability to be chosen from another chart besides Tzeentch

Simple enough I feel to help them a bit, and make Tzeentch a bit more Masterful over lores.

The whinging about this codex is absolutely absurd. The basic CSMs are better equipped than their vanilla counterpoints, and cheaper, and have better options - you can have essentially rhino-based assault marines as troops. Chosen are better than Veterans, and can be troops rather than just scoring. All of the cult troops can be scoring. Bikes are cheaper than their marine counterparts. So they can't be troops? Boohoo. Terminators are cheap, and may not be as good as vanilla terminators, but can be upgraded to have combi-weapons and marks reasonably inexpensively. So you can't have cult terminators? Boohoo, give them a mark. Raptors cheaper than assault marines, and cause fear, whilst losing the regular vanilla rules. Havocs significantly cheaper than their counterparts, lose plasma cannons, but gain autocannons...

Seriously, I have never known such whinging as I have seen for this codex. You may not have an uberlist, but at least you have one.

I dont think the chaos units need some major overhaul. But the codex could have some "extra options"

Here are the "upgrades" I'd suggest:

- Eternal warrior on the daemon prince. I know this has been said an infinite times but let me justify it once more:
1: The Daemon Prince costs a wtf amount of points. For those points it needs to be a flexible unit, you shouldn't be forced to keep him away from some enemies because they can instagib him
2: ID is pretty much common today. In the shooting phase few units have access to S10 but in close combat S10 is not so rare and ID weapons such as force weapons and venomous stuff has become pretty common. This severely restricts the possible targets of the DP which is a dedicated CC unit.
3: The DP is not even that difficult to take down with small arms: T5 4W 3+ is pretty much the same as 4 Plague marines (actually it's worse) so enemies do not need extra means of taking the DP down.

- Legion specific traits: I'd add the option for the Chaos Lord (and eventually the other HQs to buy Legion traits
Some examples could be:
- Alpha Legion: The Warlord Trait is automatically Master of deception and the enemy reserve rolls have -1
- Word Bearers: The Warlord Trait is automatically exalted champion and you can select 1 troop choice from codex: Chaos Daemons
- Night Lords: The Warlord Trait is automatically Lord of terror and you can decide to automatically have night fighting in the 1st round
-Iron Warriors: The Warlord Trait is automatically hatred incarnate and you can select 1 HS from codex: Imperial guard

-Cult Terminators: I really do not understand why Legions simply decided not to use TDA anymore I'd make something like this:
Option for Terminators: Instead of taking marks they can become cult termies:
-Plague Terminators: 20 ppm: T5, I3 , FNP, ccw are poisoned
-Slaughterer Terminators: 10 ppm: AC 5 Furious Charge counter-attack
-Noise Terminators: 10 ppm: I5, All terminators can swap their Combi-bolters with a sonic blaster and the Reaper autocannon with a blastmaster
-Thousand sons terminators: 15 ppm: 4+ Invuln, all their bolters are AP3, the champon is a Lvl 1 Psyker with a force weapon
They are all Fearless

As a chaos player i like the dex especially the boost to noise marines the dex feels balenced not like a few of the more recent dex's (Crons, Grey knights) which felt overpowered the chaos dex feels nice and balenced

I hope the people complaining about terms not getting shields realize that with MoT you're whole squad would have a 2++ , which would be very OP.

 thecapn226 wrote:
I hope the people complaining about terms not getting shields realize that with MoT you're whole squad would have a 2++ , which would be very OP.

Boltguns, Las Guns and basic weapons would still kill the Terminators all the same. It just means that AP2 weapons have less effect against them.

Also make Ahriman a Loremaster... Give him all Psycic Disciplines...

 happygolucky wrote:
Also make Ahriman a Loremaster... Give him all Psycic Disciplines...

That would be OP, severely OP.

And? He is meant to know kind of Everything...

Also him him a special Power called the Rubric... Dunno what that will do but im thinking of how to make it work (Of course it will be once per game though)...

Look, feth balanced.....I want omagawd that is such bs. Allow me to explain.... in a perfect world, we would like gw to make every codex a fun, balanced yet competitive book. But let's be honest here...gw sells models, they only have and support a rule set to sell models. If we would buy the models without the game, you know that would be the end of codexes . In order to support continued sales projections, codex creep has become an expected ( not liked, but expected) part of the meta. For a period, a new codex will tend to dominate books before it, whether from op stuff, or new stuff that players have not learned how to play against yet. Then as time passes a new codex power creeps and changes the meta. This is not the case with chaos. They broke the cycle, it sucks in power and cool points to every recent codex before it, and already appears it willsuck , at least for cool new models, to the da . Alot of the " it's a balanced book" are long time chaos players, and we will always be chaos(u loyalist sheep bending knee to a false God need to wake up ). This book however spawned little interest in New players to chaos. My point is, balanced or not, the book failed to adhere to what has become the expected gw recipe .

Well perhaps thats a good thing with games like dust and infinity creeping up and gaining momentum GW may have had to put more thought into the game itself instead of just selling models

 quickfuze wrote:
Look, feth balanced.....I want omagawd that is such bs. Allow me to explain.... in a perfect world, we would like gw to make every codex a fun, balanced yet competitive book. But let's be honest here...gw sells models, they only have and support a rule set to sell models. If we would buy the models without the game, you know that would be the end of codexes . In order to support continued sales projections, codex creep has become an expected ( not liked, but expected) part of the meta. For a period, a new codex will tend to dominate books before it, whether from op stuff, or new stuff that players have not learned how to play against yet. Then as time passes a new codex power creeps and changes the meta. This is not the case with chaos. They broke the cycle, it sucks in power and cool points to every recent codex before it, and already appears it willsuck , at least for cool new models, to the da . Alot of the " it's a balanced book" are long time chaos players, and we will always be chaos(u loyalist sheep bending knee to a false God need to wake up ). This book however spawned little interest in New players to chaos. My point is, balanced or not, the book failed to adhere to what has become the expected gw recipe .

This was tzeentch's plan the weak among us looking for OP'ness destroyed leaving only us the strong the loyal to fight for the cause of chaos..

 McNinja wrote:

And for another thing, is a 25 point upgrade to a Skyfire option on havocs supposed to be good? Considering once you fire at something, the whole squad does too, it makes just as much sense to fire a bunch of autocannons or something instead of spending so much. So the first codex to have Skyfire weapon options has all of one single Skyfire weapon option. And no, the Hell Drake doesn't count.

One Flakk Missile is approximately twice as effective against aircraft as an autocannon, since it hits four times as much (3+ v. 6+) with half the shots at the same Strength.

A Havoc with Flakk Missiles retains Krak and Frag missiles.

Flakk missiles are so expensive because they're actually pretty good; 25pts for a weapon that can engage basically everything versus 10pts for a weapon that can engage some vehicles and some infantry seems rather fairly-priced to me...

As far as using more Skyfire weapons, I can't really think of anywhere else it'd make as much sense in the Chaos Codex; they're supposed to be a fairly close-quarters army, not one that hangs back and beats on the enemy with artillery (well, Iron Warriors excepted, but that's what getting IG under the Allies rules is for), which means their supply of long-range units is pretty limited, leaving you with the option of either making new units that are redundant in the context of Allies or shoehorning AA into close-quarters units, which would be silly.

A middle-ground solution: Some sort of flying Daemonic unit that can assault flyers? Like how Swooping Hawks used to be?


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 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Look, feth balanced.....I want omagawd that is such bs. Allow me to explain.... in a perfect world, we would like gw to make every codex a fun, balanced yet competitive book. But let's be honest here...gw sells models, they only have and support a rule set to sell models. If we would buy the models without the game, you know that would be the end of codexes . In order to support continued sales projections, codex creep has become an expected ( not liked, but expected) part of the meta. For a period, a new codex will tend to dominate books before it, whether from op stuff, or new stuff that players have not learned how to play against yet. Then as time passes a new codex power creeps and changes the meta. This is not the case with chaos. They broke the cycle, it sucks in power and cool points to every recent codex before it, and already appears it willsuck , at least for cool new models, to the da . Alot of the " it's a balanced book" are long time chaos players, and we will always be chaos(u loyalist sheep bending knee to a false God need to wake up ). This book however spawned little interest in New players to chaos. My point is, balanced or not, the book failed to adhere to what has become the expected gw recipe .

This was tzeentch's plan the weak among us looking for OP'ness destroyed leaving only us the strong the loyal to fight for the cause of chaos..

And it's actually a GOOD THING that we're getting middle-of-the-road balanced stuff in new books instead of absurdly broken things that are going to attract legions of powergamers and munchkins to ruin the reputation and dignity of those who came before. I'm speaking as a GK player who got started in 3e, by the way, just so you've got some idea of where I'm coming from. I'd kill to have gotten an update half as sane and reasonable as the Chaos book instead of the lump of Ward fluff and bad balance we got.