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Don't think this is too old to ask a related question.

What about purchasing FW books? I have my extra or "mad" money stashed in Paypal.
FW not taking Paypal means I have to transfer it over, hope my wife doesn't find it and
or spend it. Then top it off with the cherry of "You paid how much for a book!?!?" and
it makes it not worth the hassle. I was wondering if anyone knew of any online retailers
that sell the FW books.

 alarmingrick wrote:
Don't think this is too old to ask a related question.

What about purchasing FW books? I have my extra or "mad" money stashed in Paypal.
FW not taking Paypal means I have to transfer it over, hope my wife doesn't find it and
or spend it. Then top it off with the cherry of "You paid how much for a book!?!?" and
it makes it not worth the hassle. I was wondering if anyone knew of any online retailers
that sell the FW books.

First of all you should reevaluate your relationship. If what you said is true you should be spending more time trying to figure out how to have an honest and healthy relationship instead of playing 40k. Adults in a healthy relationship don't need to lie to each other about their finances just to keep up with a hobby.

Second, the only option is to hope that you can find a copy on ebay. FW don't do third-party sales so the only source for FW stuff other than their own online store is random people who bought something and decided they don't want it anymore. There is no general retail option where you can get a regular stock of FW items.

 Peregrine wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:
Don't think this is too old to ask a related question.

What about purchasing FW books? I have my extra or "mad" money stashed in Paypal.
FW not taking Paypal means I have to transfer it over, hope my wife doesn't find it and
or spend it. Then top it off with the cherry of "You paid how much for a book!?!?" and
it makes it not worth the hassle. I was wondering if anyone knew of any online retailers
that sell the FW books.

First of all you should reevaluate your relationship. If what you said is true you should be spending more time trying to figure out how to have an honest and healthy relationship instead of playing 40k. Adults in a healthy relationship don't need to lie to each other about their finances just to keep up with a hobby.

It's called humor. I wouldn't have been with her for over 20 years if things were that bad. And you're certainly the last person I'd go to for relationship advice. Seriously? Answer the FW question or piss off.
Other than that, thanks!

Well, it can't be too much humor if you have to hide your money in paypal and can't just put it in your bank account and buy from FW...

And I did answer your question. There is no paypal option other than hoping you find a random person selling the book on ebay. Expect to wait a long time.

My only beef with FW is the way they doing S&H being a % of your purchase.

I get stuff overseas all the time, and I can tell you 4 Kits from FW does not justify 40$us in shipping.

Right now I want some FW models. But the shipping is close to 2 more *WHOLE* kits. So if you are not doing a small order, or going to reach the 250GBP free shipping, then don't bother.

Wait until you and your friends can mass an order or wait for 'specials' as they have done fixed shipping for 150GBP before.

nkelsch wrote:
My only beef with FW is the way they doing S&H being a % of your purchase.

I get stuff overseas all the time, and I can tell you 4 Kits from FW does not justify 40$us in shipping.

Right now I want some FW models. But the shipping is close to 2 more *WHOLE* kits. So if you are not doing a small order, or going to reach the 250GBP free shipping, then don't bother.

Wait until you and your friends can mass an order or wait for 'specials' as they have done fixed shipping for 150GBP before.

There are several LGS that use to do mass orders years ago. I agree getting several people going in is the way to go.
I wish they'd open a store in the US. Could you imagine how much it could increase sales?! I bet there are alot of potential
customers that may not be ordering for just the reason you site.

 alarmingrick wrote:
I wish they'd open a store in the US. Could you imagine how much it could increase sales?!

Very little. Opening a US store means either also adding US manufacturing for all kits or still having to pay to ship them here, and requires having significant US stock of the entire FW catalog. These things are not free, and if FW hasn't opened a US store there's probably a very good reason for it.

 Peregrine wrote:
Well, it can't be too much humor if you have to hide your money in paypal and can't just put it in your bank account and buy from FW....

Good lord!

You've literally never had a meaningful relationship with a woman have you?!

I say that in jest, so please don't take it too much to heart, but really, you think one partner having something their other half isn't totally aware of is in any way unusual or some sort of big deal? Sheesh.

If he left it in their bank account she'd spend it on shoes in a heartbeat.

..the sad part is I really never think of FW as being that expensive, as far as the books go.

I remember a time I'd go into a book store and blow a grand on books. *sigh* I wish I was still that well paid.

 Peregrine wrote:


And they're selling an illegal and unethical product. If you're willing to sacrifice your integrity and buy illegal recasts because it's cheaper, fine, but don't pretend that we're comparing two equally legitimate sources for a product.

Firstly, I get it's illegal - but what has ethics got to do with it? People generally don't do "illegal" stuff because of the legal consequences. There are no ethical consequences to buying this stuff.

Secondly, I bought ONE piece of FW resin (the valkyrie when it WAS a resin kit -and that miscast POS was a complete clusterfeth) and since that day, FW will ne'er darken my doorstep. My integrity is fine. I don't BUY recasts - nor do I care where people get their wardollies from. I am not one of GW's IP lawdogs.

enigwolf wrote:
And not only will you be supporting an illegal enterprise, you are failing to support the original creators of the game. Like the movie and music industry, the original creators won't receive any of the money that you put out for the purchase, and if everyone does this, you'll literally drive the company to its knees. Boom. There goes the hobby.

.

The original creators of the game have already moved on, and no longer get support from GW purchases, FW or otherwise. I doubt they got monies from ANY of the releases during their time outside of being paid to work for the company. I don't think the concept of royalties exists in GW culture.
I'm not seeing a bad side to the last part. The hobby is bigger than one company - and even the biggest of them is but a minnow in the corporate sea.

 Enigwolf wrote:

And not only will you be supporting an illegal enterprise, you are failing to support the original creators of the game. Like the movie and music industry, the original creators won't receive any of the money that you put out for the purchase, and if everyone does this, you'll literally drive the company to its knees. Boom. There goes the hobby.

That's kind of laughable considering how GW has treated the original game creators in the past. Let's be honest with ourselves for a moment: the mafia has more integrity, and respect for the original producer's of it's goods, than Games Workshop.

The movie and music industry that at least get SOME royalties. (10 cents per album is considered a very good contract, I hear. We won't even get into the rapefest that is the comic book industry)


I say GW needs driven to it's knees, so that maybe they replace their executives and reconsider their business practices.

 chromedog wrote:
The original creators of the game have already moved on, and no longer get support from GW purchases, FW or otherwise. I doubt they got monies from ANY of the releases during their time outside of being paid to work for the company. I don't think the concept of royalties exists in GW culture.

Original creators was probably a bad choice of words. Buying recasts hurts Forgeworld - if they're not selling enough, GW will take notice of what that portion of the company is doing wrong.

It's also worth noting that Forgeworld prices have changed very little over the years compared to GW prices, which have consistently gone up (as we all know). Buying recasts becoming the in thing now makes little sense, since as their prices haven't gone up much except to cover VAT increases, average wages have, so Forgeworld has become more affordable rather than less, like GW has.

Buying recasts of Forgeworld to 'stick it' to GW isn't sticking it to GW, it's sticking it to Forgeworld, who don't really deserve it.

It also forces them to concentrate on what will sell, rather than their usual niche products that, while selling in smaller volumes, sold enough to keep making them. We're already seeing it, IMO. Studio members moved off Warhammer Forge and Imperial Armour, considerably slowing those product lines down, and going on to Horus Heresy products, simply because even considering recasts, HH sells more. I wouldn't be shocked at all if lower sales due to recasting has spurred this move. And again, totally unwarranted towards Forgeworld, who have always been better to deal with than GW.

Out of interest, does Dakka support the pirating of all wargames products, or is it just GW?

 marielle wrote:
Out of interest, does Dakka support the pirating of all wargames products, or is it just GW?

A bit extreme there. A few members of Dakka does not equal Dakka.

A whipround with friends is a good way of reaching the free shipping limit.

Heck, 3 people buy 'Betrayal' and you're already nearly there!

Plus, it helps with the excuses to the Boss, "no, all that money I'm spending isn't mine, it's split between my mates and I'm getting most of it back, you see, I'm just the one that's good with money."

And, despite being single, I do know one very important thing, never, ever, ever compare it to an expensive hat/outfit/handbag.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 marielle wrote:
Out of interest, does Dakka support the pirating of all wargames products, or is it just GW?

A bit extreme there. A few members of Dakka does not equal Dakka.

Exactly! Painting with a bit of a broad brush. I've talked to a really good friend of mine that has actually
purchased recast items from Russia. I have to admit, the quality was unreal. Some items he had were better
than FW originals. That said, I've not purchased a recast and don't plan on it. He is also not using the recaster
any longer.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 marielle wrote:
Out of interest, does Dakka support the pirating of all wargames products, or is it just GW?

A bit extreme there. A few members of Dakka does not equal Dakka.

Oh I'm sorry, I would hate to be thought extreme by someone who has missed the point, I shall re-phase my question so that it doesn't shock you.

Out of interest, does Dakka support 'a few of it's members' promoting the pirating of wargames products. or just GW products?

 marielle wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 marielle wrote:
Out of interest, does Dakka support the pirating of all wargames products, or is it just GW?

A bit extreme there. A few members of Dakka does not equal Dakka.

Oh I'm sorry, I would hate to be thought extreme by someone who has missed the point, I shall re-phase my question so that it doesn't shock you.

Out of interest, does Dakka support 'a few of it's members' promoting the pirating of wargames products. or just GW products?

If that was your question then perhaps you should have asked the mods, there's a report button up in the corner of each post if you feel a post is problematic.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 marielle wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 marielle wrote:
Out of interest, does Dakka support the pirating of all wargames products, or is it just GW?

A bit extreme there. A few members of Dakka does not equal Dakka.

Oh I'm sorry, I would hate to be thought extreme by someone who has missed the point, I shall re-phase my question so that it doesn't shock you.

Out of interest, does Dakka support 'a few of it's members' promoting the pirating of wargames products. or just GW products?

If that was your question then perhaps you should have asked the mods, there's a report button up in the corner of each post if you feel a post is problematic.

I know.

 marielle wrote:
I know.

That's nice.

 marielle wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 marielle wrote:
Out of interest, does Dakka support the pirating of all wargames products, or is it just GW?

A bit extreme there. A few members of Dakka does not equal Dakka.

Oh I'm sorry, I would hate to be thought extreme by someone who has missed the point, I shall re-phase my question so that it doesn't shock you.

Out of interest, does Dakka support 'a few of it's members' promoting the pirating of wargames products. or just GW products?

For the record, though I suspect your question was largely rhetorical, Dakka is vehemently anti piracy.

Then again, i assume most members love their hobby and want to support the companies that make it possible. GW are probably the only ones dumb enough to take all that goodwill and piss it's customers off sufficiently to drive people to buying knock offs.

 azreal13 wrote:
...though I suspect your question was largely rhetorical...

Oh I knew it was, I just wanted to fulfill "ask a silly question, get a silly answer"

 marielle wrote:

Out of interest, does Dakka support 'a few of it's members' promoting the pirating of wargames products. or just GW products?

Officially, dakka supports nothing at all, including itself.

I think though that you'll find a fairly large number of posters support the idea of GW being tarred and feathered repeatedly until they learn the error of their ways. This does include using 3rd party minis, bits, and recasting. I looked into the actual costs of running an medium scale industrial resin casting operation. GW is not even giving it's customers the benefit of a reach around.


After all, according to GW plastic costs more than resin which costs more than metal. Their logic does not resemble our Earth logic.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
TBH, and I have quite a bit of genuine FW stuff myself - the guys I know who went the recaster route didn't suffer the miscasts issues I did in the first place with one exception, and that was resolved surprisingly well.

Not saying you won't find a diamond in the rough when dealing with counterfeit model sellers, but it's not guaranteed. Good service from FW is guaranteed though. Regarding the quality of cast, that's all subjective. I've gotten one large mdoel with some bad components, and smaller models with perfectly fine components. I've seen recasts that look like they've gone through a lawn mower, and I've seen recasts that look fine.

I'd just prefer to go with the more reliably good seller.

Once you find one worthwhile though, they are usually better, which is why I have little respect for FW. If you're going to run a small operation that charges an arm and a leg, at least do better than some random dude in his garage in China.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

And they're selling an illegal and unethical product. If you're willing to sacrifice your integrity and buy illegal recasts because it's cheaper, fine, but don't pretend that we're comparing two equally legitimate sources for a product.

Except its not illegal, since China doesnt have the same absurd IP laws. Its only unethical if it violates your own code.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 marielle wrote:
Out of interest, does Dakka support the pirating of all wargames products, or is it just GW?

While I cant speak for everyone, I abhor GW's corporate practice, so wont support them, so in the rare case I want a GW model, the recasters get my dollars. Despite being able to buy several other companies' products recast, I don't, because I actually want to support them.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
[
Once you find one worthwhile though, they are usually better, which is why I have little respect for FW. If you're going to run a small operation that charges an arm and a leg, at least do better than some random dude in his garage in China.

This. A recaster shouldn't be the one producing the higher quality product. Something is wrong.

 chromedog wrote:
Firstly, I get it's illegal - but what has ethics got to do with it? People generally don't do "illegal" stuff because of the legal consequences. There are no ethical consequences to buying this stuff.

I suppose you also think that there's no ethical consequences to buying stolen property, right?

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Except its not illegal, since China doesnt have the same absurd IP laws. Its only unethical if it violates your own code.

Yeah, those absurd IP laws like "it's not legal to make direct copies of someone else's product". I really don't understand how you can possibly think that those laws are absurd.

While I cant speak for everyone, I abhor GW's corporate practice, so wont support them, so in the rare case I want a GW model, the recasters get my dollars. Despite being able to buy several other companies' products recast, I don't, because I actually want to support them.

Nice justification there. Too bad you don't have the moral integrity to just not buy GW products as a protest. At least people buying recasts because they're cheaper have the decency to admit that they're just being selfish instead of trying to invent some moral high ground to justify their actions.

 Peregrine wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Firstly, I get it's illegal - but what has ethics got to do with it? People generally don't do "illegal" stuff because of the legal consequences. There are no ethical consequences to buying this stuff.

I suppose you also think that there's no ethical consequences to buying stolen property, right?

Well, first you have to consider it stolen, which it clearly isnt. He created a copy, and is selling that. Just because you've been brainwashed by IP lawyers into thinking that creating a copy is the same thing as actually stealing a physical copy doesn't make it the case. If I get a hypothetical genie, and he conjures me up a new car or a taco, there was no theft of cars or tacos. As far as ethics, lets move it to a more likely equivalent. Its about on par with watching the Superbowl on a screen over 55 inches. Or calling it the Superbowl in the first place instead of "the big game". Or going 5 miles above the speed limit, buying liquor on Sundays, or getting a beej from your wife in Texas in the 70's, etc.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Except its not illegal, since China doesnt have the same absurd IP laws. Its only unethical if it violates your own code.

Yeah, those absurd IP laws like "it's not legal to make direct copies of someone else's product". I really don't understand how you can possibly think that those laws are absurd.

Or the relentless extension of copyrights in the US. Or the nature of IP law in itself, which favors the rich as weaker cant afford to fight IP bullying by the larger companies that make blatantly false claims (like owning the term space marines, or mythological beings). Or the NFL's absurd claims that it owns all accounts of a game, meaning that they try and extend the copyright to you TALKING about the events of the game. The laws in the US are a huge mess.

While I cant speak for everyone, I abhor GW's corporate practice, so wont support them, so in the rare case I want a GW model, the recasters get my dollars. Despite being able to buy several other companies' products recast, I don't, because I actually want to support them.

Nice justification there. Too bad you don't have the moral integrity to just not buy GW products as a protest. At least people buying recasts because they're cheaper have the decency to admit that they're just being selfish instead of trying to invent some moral high ground to justify their actions.

Except I dont buy their products, so they get no support from me, so it really is based on my moral views of them specifically, as opposed to other companies.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Except its not illegal, since China doesnt have the same absurd IP laws.

Actually, this is not true. Most of the IP/Copyright laws are valid internationally and counterfeiting *IS* illegal in China as part of the WTO. They just don't have the means/political will to enforce them, and don't have good mechanics for international companies to report issues for Chinese authorities to investigate. The discovery required to have companies give up the personal information of the people counterfeiting, then getting them in court and then arguing such a case in Chinese court makes it extremely hard to do anything about it... Not because it is legal, but because it is hard for companies who don't exist in china.

Remember, if someone doesn't complain in court, the government isn't going to kick your door in usually, Especially in China who until a copyright holder provides evidence, the Chinese government just assumes that the company is doing it's thing.

So the argument: "it is legal in China so I am supporting legal Chinese business" is not valid. Just admit you are supporting counterfeiting and don't try to add platitudes to it and move on.

 Peregrine wrote:


I suppose you also think that there's no ethical consequences to buying stolen property, right?

I just fail to see what ethics has to do with it (or morality for that matter).

Keep loading your questions, though. Have you stopped beating your girlfriend up yet?

nkelsch wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Except its not illegal, since China doesnt have the same absurd IP laws.

Actually, this is not true. Most of the IP/Copyright laws are valid internationally and counterfeiting *IS* illegal in China as part of the WTO. They just don't have the means/political will to enforce them, and don't have good mechanics for international companies to report issues for Chinese authorities to investigate. The discovery required to have companies give up the personal information of the people counterfeiting, then getting them in court and then arguing such a case in Chinese court makes it extremely hard to do anything about it... Not because it is legal, but because it is hard for companies who don't exist in china.

Remember, if someone doesn't complain in court, the government isn't going to kick your door in usually, Especially in China who until a copyright holder provides evidence, the Chinese government just assumes that the company is doing it's thing.

So the argument: "it is legal in China so I am supporting legal Chinese business" is not valid. Just admit you are supporting counterfeiting and don't try to add platitudes to it and move on.

The WIPO says broadly that a country needs to have a copyright law - it doesn't say what that law must be. For example, just recently a company in the UK was found guilty of copying a copyrighted object in the US, but when the company went to the UK to actually collect on the ruling...UK courts found that it wasn't a copyright violation (LucasArts v Ainsworth - both the California court ruling for the guilty verdict and the UK Supreme court for the not guilty portion). In Japan and many Asian countries - you actually can not copyright toys...they are not considered artwork and copyrights are reserved for actual artwork there. This is why you see so many garage kits from Japan which are based off from different toys and cartoons.

I haven't actually looked into the details of recent Chinese copyright laws - but it would not be surprising at all to find out that what they are doing in terms of recasting is entirely legal there. I recall in the early 1990s there were significant problems relating to China in that they did not recognize computer software as being copyrightable, so China was a source of freely available software copies of pretty much everything.

Issues with the law though come into play with your local country though, as most countries have various laws relating to counterfeit (either trademark or copyright) goods and grey market (stuff sold for cheaper in developing countries compared to higher prices in first world countries) goods. Some laws specifically exempt consumers, and are written to prohibit retail outlets from making a business out of it...while other countries have laws which prevent all manner of those goods from coming into country.

So - yes, it may be a perfectly legal business in China. It may even be perfectly legal to purchase counterfeit goods in the country that you live in. There are plenty of arguments which could be made as to why it isn't even unethical to make copies in many cases. Laws generally have little to do with ethics - and even within laws like copyright and trademark rules...ethics and morality are often completely ignored. Do you really think that someone like Bob Naismith who developed the concept for the Space Marines has been compensated in an ethical manner regarding how many millions of pounds GW has made off from his idea? A lot of modern copyright laws specifically carve out moral rights in order to ensure that those artisans receive their proper due (though the money behind the legislation usually ensures that it stops just short of actual monetary reimbursement).