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Are you thinking they get the 2d6" jump pack move?

The don't hop after assaulting a tank in close combat.

I think he's referring to the 2d6" jet pack move that you make instead of assaulting.

Well in any case an option is an option though a very unlikly one. to the original post, a Fireknives seem just way to weak for what it does. generalist usualy dont work well with what tau has right now. i much rather see deathrains for NEQ and anti air, and Helios for TEQ+, as i find against MEQ you will miss half of your shot and mabye kill 1 marine with the plasma, and 1 kill with the missile pod while being more than 12" away which is the safer harrasing distance.

the full potential of the plasma is at the 12" range which pairs well with FB 12" range. while i feel the missile pod has no real long range friend but it self (usually keep my HQ with them because they tend to stay safer at range) but thats just a style of play i enjoy.

The death rains with twin-linked missile pods are incredibly accurate and work more on the concept of wound saturation. Hitting 75% of the time and wounding even bikes on 2+ is insanely good. Add in that it can wound MC, hurt light tanks, and in a pinch makes a decent anti-air unit.

I'd only run two weapon builds on HQ just for the ability to take Targetting arrays with the multi-tracker. And then its always the plasma rifle missile pod combo. Not saying the Helios is bad, I just take it for the BS4 missiles and think of the plasma as backup.

But why a multi-tracker on a fireknife? Both weapons have different intended targets. I would much rather have just the targeting array if I'm short points. Certainly on a commander I would be looking at either TL Missile Pods/Flamer or Plasma/Missile Pods/Targeting Array if I'm using gun drones - but then I use Tau as allies and often forgo the elites for three battlesuits instead.

I think the idea is that if your going to pay for 2 weapons, shooting both (even when one is a slight less perfect weapon for the situation) is better then firing only one at a higher BS.

Example: Shooting at TEQ, of course the PR is the go to weapon, but making a TEQ take a AS is better then not even having a chance of making him take one. So why not shoot two missile at him in addition to the 2 plasma shots?

Similiarly, shooting at a Rhino. The MP is the go to weapon while staying at range. but a PR can still pen a rhino and give you more shoots thus more chances at causing that pen.

I've seen the math, not up for reproducing it again, but more shots ends up being better then hitting better with less shots. (most of the time)

the Multi tracker allows you to fire both weapons at the same time for a greater volume of fire. while they both have different intended targets, the extra shots (even more so at 12") give a greater chance to score more kills vs the extra chance of hitting with just that 1 weapon, the TA instead of the MT on the fireknife is good for the very beggining when you need to remove his transports but gets weaker the closer the enemy gets while the MT fireknife is powerful at range and gets better the closer the enemy gets.

My friend won several tournies in recent memory with three units of Plasma + Fusion, with different ones TL'd. Pretty devastating. Clears entire sectors of the board at a time when he's ready to do it. Pretty impressive results. I talked him into adding Stingwings initially and it was even better but then he decided to go the Aegis route which meant no points forthat. Still, Those TL Plasma+ Fusion units with a single shield drone on em do a darn fine job. I am not one who would probably run that kind of army but there's no denying the results.

Targeting Array is a 30% improvement at range with my ML. This is signifacant as generally I'm not wanting to get close until mid/late game. Loding the ML shot at 12" is not that bad as you still get 30% more plasma hits and the shots from the drones. Of course both upgrades would be best but points can be an issue.

Talked him into running Stingwings? Where you trying to hurt his chances?

Targetting Array is a 16% improvement from BS3. Markerlight going up to BS5 is another 16% increase. 32% increase with 1 markerlight.

But compared to a suit with two weapons instead.
Missile pods offer 2 extra shots up to 36"

So with three shots at BS3 you're getting about 1.5 hits and with 2 shots at BS5 is 1.6 hits.

I guess the real issue is if you prefer volume or quantity. Personally I prefer the accuracy of twinlinked missiles at range over the AP2 that plasma rifles offer. Especially with as much as I see cover and invul saves I just prefer to rely on mass wounds and hope for 1's.

Going from a 50% chance to hit to a 66% chance to hit is approximately a 33% increase in the chance to hit. Just because the increment on a D6 is in 16% chunks does not mean that its just a 16% increase. You are adding 16% onto your 50% chance you already had. That's a 33% increase.

I find it hard to pass on the fire knife config for an all comers list. Sometimes AP2 is what you need.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Talked him into running Stingwings? Where you trying to hurt his chances?
.

You know what I don't like? Defeatists. I should consider myself weaker for including Stingwings? or using TL Flame suits? A bunch of negativie ill-considered defeatism is what that is. We did some fun stuff with that on the blog, over time. Here are some links.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2011/09/vacuumhammer-and-stingwings.html

and also http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2011/09/battle-stingwings-vs-crisis-suits-heats.html

and also: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2012/05/stingwings-strike-again.html

On the issue of Flamers, here was a fun list I did WITH SUITS, with battle report: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2011/12/assault-tau-battle-report.html

in 5E I was glad of one thing: I was glad that people like you were so plentiful when I got to tournies. They are so FILLED with confidence when they see I have nothing they recognize as dangerous. "No suits!!! No Hammerheads!!! Just THREE Broadsides?" they say gleefully as they imagine what it will be like to get that nice trophy at the end and dreaming of top table glory, prize support, the adulation of their peers...

In round four I probably reminded them a little bit of the Cheshire Cat.

Yeah I stopped reading when your blog said it takes 66 bolters to take down Vespid and Crisis suits require 54.

here is the real math.

45 bolter shots, 30 hits, 15 wound, 10 failed saves. That's assumming they get the 5+ cover from being in woods like you suggested.

And before I go any furhter. How far did you think Crisis suits got to move after assaulting?

182 points for a full squad of vespids at bs 3 that is is only 3.67 wounds w/o markerlight support vs say helios which are 186 for 3 will kill 3.75 MEQ or 2.5 TEQ. both can use marker tokens but more importantly take up 2 different slots.

unfortunately, vespids are jump infantry and don’t get an assault move, nor do they gain any benefit from pathfinder marke rbeacons, the real only way to get them into the 12" range would be danger close deepstrike or a heavily LOS blocking terrain board which are both random variables. and unfortunately they only have a 5+ armor save which makes for easy pickings from basic bolters.

I aint a nay sayer but it is a high risk medium reward relative expensive unit that requires a lot of finesse to use properly. The average 40k player tends not to have that skill.

Anyway I thought the discussion was about fireknives not vespids.

That and Vespid means less slots for markers which make everything better.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Yeah I stopped reading when your blog said it takes 66 bolters to take down Vespid and Crisis suits require 54.

here is the real math.

45 bolter shots, 30 hits, 15 wound, 10 failed saves. That's assumming they get the 5+ cover from being in woods like you suggested.

And before I go any furhter. How far did you think Crisis suits got to move after assaulting?

You're clearly too smart to learn anything. You sir are forgetting that this was a 5E article. Your attention to detail is just poor. it's meant as food for thought, like everything else on forums. You'll get more out of it if you dont get too busy trying to quip instead of learn.

In 6E, things have changed. I should write another article on that but I feel like with all the new codex's out, there's a lot more to consider now. The Aegis has practically been foisted upon us as necessity if you dont want to expend enormous amounts of money on flyers. That is soaking points that might otherwise have been used for options like Stingwings. That doesn't change their usefulnes, it just means its harder to incorporate. Allies can make that even more difficult if you're dead set on them. The list has to be more tailored TO them instead of just including them as an excellent working part now.

As for the actual issue at hand, which is TL flamers, you can poo poo it all you like. When they immolate one of your units, I am sure you will find some way to rationalize away how unimpressive it was.

As an aside: Desubot, they benefit from Markerlights.

No no you miss understood me. They can use marker tokens but cannot use pathfinders (devilfish) marker "beacon" for deepstrike.

As an aside aside note: I have used the double FL suits. in a 500 point tourney (nothing fancy and mostly for fun) overall they demolished and did better than statistics but had I failed one of those rolls it would of been GG from turn 2. Antidotal evidence is one thing but most people can only run off statistical evidence as it is a provable thing and some people (my self at times) can only accept statistics.

edited for grammer and mistaken tone

TL flamers are really nice, but that requires getting very close. I know there's a ton of things my BA don't like to get close to, so I can't imagine its any different for the Tau.

That's why I like the versatility of fire knife. Although with flyers now, I can see upping the percentage of death rains.

For being an anti marine unit, there are plenty of things I fear more in the Tau arsenal than vespids.

Too smart to learn says the person that ignored all my counter points to twin-linked flamers.

oh and my memory is a bit fuzzy, but yesterday you made a comment about me not knowing what I was talking about and then mentioned that Crisis suits can assault then hop back into cover. I'd like a bit more detail on that issue, since you glossed over my previous inquiry.

and Vespid don't fit into any list. They're short ranged, weak, and can't assault.

And if you're going to have me read your amazing blog I suggest you don't refer to out dated entries it since it apparently has no relevance to the current enviornment.

you dont need deathrains to deal with filers, you need a Broadside with TA and HWMT on a Quadgun to rip fliers out of the sky.

its tobad our Skyray, our AIR DEFENSE MISSLE SYSTEM does not have skyfire.

well naturally the answer to every problem is to buy or make more things. the adl and quad gun has been the best add on in my army in a long time and I'm glad i got it but it isnt the end all be all of anti air.. the death rains main purpose isn't flyers but as long range harassers and light tank. the twinlinking just helps out a bit against flyers mostly as a secondary usage.

you see my thing of having the broadside with TA/HWMT using it? that drops fliers left and right.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
you see my thing of having the broadside with TA/HWMT using it? that drops fliers left and right.

If you're willing to rules lawyer it that way, yes. Good luck getting anyone to accept it.

Broadsides are way too iffy for me. At least with Deathrains you have a larger volume to try and hit.

Sadly we don't have anything that's reliant enough to be considered anti-air. We just have things that aren't as bad at taking down flyers.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
you see my thing of having the broadside with TA/HWMT using it? that drops fliers left and right.

If you're willing to rules lawyer it that way, yes. Good luck getting anyone to accept it.

why would you need to rule lawyer it? quad gun give the model skyfire for the purpose of firing the weapon, since all shots happen at the same time the railgun gets the benefit of the skyfire rule.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
you see my thing of having the broadside with TA/HWMT using it? that drops fliers left and right.

If you're willing to rules lawyer it that way, yes. Good luck getting anyone to accept it.

why would you need to rule lawyer it? quad gun give the model skyfire for the purpose of firing the weapon, since all shots happen at the same time the railgun gets the benefit of the skyfire rule.

Because:

1) You have to rules lawyer that a multitracker lets you fire the quad gun, based on nitpicking the fact that "instead of firing his weapon" doesn't say 'weapons', plural, and therefore GW meant that it only replaces one weapon but somehow failed to clearly state it as "instead of firing one of his weapons".

2) You have to rules lawyer that you are still "firing a weapon with this rule" when you are firing your railgun and not the emplacement.

It's blatant rules lawyering to gain an advantage GW did not intend for you to have (think about it fluff-wise, how the hell does firing an emplacement let your shoulder-mounted railguns magically shoot at a higher angle to hit aircraft), and the only reason it hasn't been FAQed away is that GW probably didn't realize that anyone would try to rules lawyer it that badly.

 Savageconvoy wrote:


oh and my memory is a bit fuzzy, but yesterday you made a comment about me not knowing what I was talking about and then mentioned that Crisis suits can assault then hop back into cover. I'd like a bit more detail on that issue, since you glossed over my previous inquiry.
.

You're right. Your memory IS fuzzy. What are you talking about? No one can assault and hop back other than insofar as their consolidation goes. As many times before, you're not reading to understand. OBVIOUSLY what I was talking about was flaming your target on the Deep strike and jumping back into the shadow of a tank and in the SUBSEQUENT turn jumping behind the shadow of the tank again if it moves and punching holes in it. No one said you could jump after assaulting. That's why I ignored your question. I couldn't understand why you'd even ask.

READ TO UNDERSTAND.

The blog wasn't there strictly for the statistical analysis (as that is not as accurate in 6E) but also the tactical and how to use them. Of course...you wouldn't know that because well... you were too busy forming your next retort instead of, as aforementioned, trying to read and understand the thrust of it and other articles like it. And thats fine. You're not the first, and you won't be the last to argue like this on a forum. The {name of online personality I am not appaarently allowed to say directly}'s of the world embolden others to be abusive and dismissive of new ideas. Why should you be any different? Anyone with a keyboard is instantly an expert and they even let little old me have a blog (not that its worth reading, of course). But I never saw a keyboard win any games and my success is proof enough for me to at least to espouse the virtues of this TL Flamer suit type.

The list determines whether it makes snese or not, obviously, but it can make sense if you let it.

Please stick to the topic, stop quarrelling and talk about the argument rather than the person.

Thank you.

Back to what the mod said, I'm not sure I'm comfortable getting my suits close enough to flame. I guess its a lot of wounds, but the target squad might have buddies nearby......