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Selym wrote:
I would guess that some juvenat treatments involve on-the-spot genetic manipulation. Modern-day biologists have already worked out that

a) aging is due to cell damage from oxygen [oxygen is actually toxic to us]
b) Jellyfish are immortal because they posses a genetic trait that allows their cells to revert to a younger stage in their life cycle, causing them to become immortal.

It's not too hard to imagine that 40k years down the line, someone figured out how to use those facts.

Given that Inquisitors and Space Marines are indispensable forces, it would make sense that they would be able to get enough of this to become immortal, with a side of extended/eternal youth.
Rich guys obviously get lavishly treated to such technologies, though it may be faulty, or just imperfect, and be able to grant them a good few more decades/centuries

I remember when science teachers used to tell us that sharks were immortal too.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Selym wrote:
I would guess that some juvenat treatments involve on-the-spot genetic manipulation. Modern-day biologists have already worked out that

a) aging is due to cell damage from oxygen [oxygen is actually toxic to us]
b) Jellyfish are immortal because they posses a genetic trait that allows their cells to revert to a younger stage in their life cycle, causing them to become immortal.

It's not too hard to imagine that 40k years down the line, someone figured out how to use those facts.

Given that Inquisitors and Space Marines are indispensable forces, it would make sense that they would be able to get enough of this to become immortal, with a side of extended/eternal youth.
Rich guys obviously get lavishly treated to such technologies, though it may be faulty, or just imperfect, and be able to grant them a good few more decades/centuries

I remember when science teachers used to tell us that sharks were immortal too.

Well, with jellyfish, they've got evidence of cells "reverting". This seems to hold true in science so far, but even if it turns out that this is just someone bullsh***ing it's not too much of a stretch to imagine a genetic trait that repairs any and all cell damage.

Well the Space Marines might unintentionally be keeping the rulers alive for much longer than a human should because they are tithing five percent of their geneseed to Mars. And with the corruption stemming from the High Lords, I might well see them doing that. Also it's the squicky solution that you somehow draw life-force of someone very young and then an old person get rejuvenated, which I have seen in at least one Conan the Barbarian comic as well as in Babylon 5.

I would like to point out, at this point, that the Dark Eldar keep themselves alive by feeding their souls with the pain of others.

Reading that made me wonder how much life has to do with a soul in the world of 40k, and by extension: how much can psychic power do to keep someone alive (bearing in mind that souls are a reflection of the self in the warp, and the warp is all psychic energy)?

EDIT: I'm going to make a new topic for that actually..

You don't need to create a new topic, already there is a topic extremely similar to this one out here. Now there are two.

I was speculating in what juvenats were made from and have done far wilder things than just hi-jack sci-fi examples from Conan and Babylon 5 where they basically have a device for transferring life-force, not the soul in itself (that kind of technology is very plausible as juvenat-treatment in the IOM IMHO).

Hmm...
It seems that so far we have these ideas of juvenat:

Life absorption
Stem Cells
Majyk Kemikulz (Though I would put that one under chaos DE and orks, rather than IOM)
Genetic enhancement
Bionics

Seems like there could be some more debating as to which are more feasible, and likely to be human tech.

My votes so far are on stem cells, bionics and genetics

The implication seems to be that the only truly "immortal" beings in the IoM, other than the God-Emperor, are the Tech-Priests of Mars who move their consciousness into a digital format and then implant that into an entirely-robotic body. Eventually, juvenat treatments aren't going to cut it.

 Psienesis wrote:
The implication seems to be that the only truly "immortal" beings in the IoM, other than the God-Emperor, are the Tech-Priests of Mars who move their consciousness into a digital format and then implant that into an entirely-robotic body. Eventually, juvenat treatments aren't going to cut it.

That and the estimated immortality of a SM. Genetically, ofc.

Selym wrote:
I would like to point out, at this point, that the Dark Eldar keep themselves alive by feeding their souls with the pain of others.

Mostly to counteract "wear" of their psyche from either Slaanesh's thirst or from living in Webway and to sate their emotional hunger. "Repair" of wounded in some BL books or growth of "casket-borns" in 'dex can easily mean that these are moments they vulnerable most, lacking SoulStone/InifinityCircle/WorldSpirit protection - and actual accelerated healing/ growth could be induced by some other method.

Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The implication seems to be that the only truly "immortal" beings in the IoM, other than the God-Emperor, are the Tech-Priests of Mars who move their consciousness into a digital format and then implant that into an entirely-robotic body. Eventually, juvenat treatments aren't going to cut it.

That and the estimated immortality of a SM. Genetically, ofc.

True, but, of course, a Space Marine will never live long enough to prove or disprove their supposed immortality.

 Psienesis wrote:

Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The implication seems to be that the only truly "immortal" beings in the IoM, other than the God-Emperor, are the Tech-Priests of Mars who move their consciousness into a digital format and then implant that into an entirely-robotic body. Eventually, juvenat treatments aren't going to cut it.

That and the estimated immortality of a SM. Genetically, ofc.

True, but, of course, a Space Marine will never live long enough to prove or disprove their supposed immortality.

Well, there are a few pioneering SM characters that are pushing the age limit - I believe there's a BA character who's over a thousand standard years old...

Selym wrote:


That and the estimated immortality of a SM. Genetically, ofc.

Not this again. Space Marines do age; they're not immortal.

 Crimson wrote:

Selym wrote:


That and the estimated immortality of a SM. Genetically, ofc.

Not this again. Space Marines do age; they're not immortal.

I never said they don't age - immortality and eternal youth are two different things, greek myths were quick to point that one out for those who know them. One mortal was granted a wish from a god, she (I think it was a she) wished for immortality so she could be in love with a god forever. However, she forgot to ask for eternal youth, aged horribly and withered way horribly into nothing.

SM age slowly, and have an indeterminate life span. Also notice I said "estimate", because nobody knows for sure.

That last one is like a wish from a djinn, you might have to spend years wording the wish just to get it right. Like wish for a million dollars, and find your parents dead the next day. I take that from Charmed.

The point still stands though

I didn't contest the point, I added to it.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I didn't contest the point, I added to it.

I know

Death from old age is a natural end point of ageing. There is no reason to assume that Space Marines would not have finite lifespans. Or what do you think it means that due their geneseed Blood Angels have longer life-spans than other marines?

Crimson wrote:Death from old age is a natural end point of ageing. There is no reason to assume that Space Marines would not have finite lifespans.

Especially since it says so in the 6E rulebook, even naming the average natural lifespan.

That being said, of course someone with a prolonged lifespan - be it "innate" like a Space Marine or "external" like with anyone partaking in juvenation treatments - would maintain a relatively young appearance for the majority of their existence. The interesting question would be what happens if they do approach the end? Do they just drop dead maintaining their youthful appearance, their internal organs not looking quite as good as their skin? Or would there be a short period of rapid ageing, where they go from (visually) 30 to 100 over the course of a few weeks or even days? Basilius' description would suggest the latter, unless juvenation treatments actually do act like a total "pause mode" for the biological clock and people begin to age normally when they stop participating ... or the treatment stops being effective, human (or superhuman, for the Marines) evanescence triumphing over science.

Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
True, but, of course, a Space Marine will never live long enough to prove or disprove their supposed immortality.

Well, there are a few pioneering SM characters that are pushing the age limit - I believe there's a BA character who's over a thousand standard years old...

Commander Dante himself who has been Chapter Master for over 1100 years. And no one living knows how long it took him to rise in the ranks first. But the story also doesn't tell us how much of those years come from time spent in warp travel, which usually distorts time - the travelers travel for weeks while months pass in the real universe. Dante doesn't confine himself to defending a small area around Baal, after all. He sees himself and his Chapter as defenders of the whole Imperium and has fought just about everywhere. A few Space Wolves are pushing those borders too, and yet can't remember a time before Dante.

But the fluff also states Dante is growing weary, not in body but in mind. He hangs on only because he believes he'll have a role to play in the final battle to end it all. I'd imagine the mind as the real border to immortality. All the people you knew are dead, your and their children are dead, you realize the first half of your life is a myth instead of history...

Spetulhu wrote:Commander Dante himself who has been Chapter Master for over 1100 years. And no one living knows how long it took him to rise in the ranks first. But the story also doesn't tell us how much of those years come from time spent in warp travel, which usually distorts time - the travelers travel for weeks while months pass in the real universe.

Well, the 6E rulebook states that "Dante is said to be 1.100 standard Terran years of age"*, and the Index Astartes as well as the 2E AoD Codex likewise say that he "has lived for nearly 1.100 years".
I'm not sure where the bit about him having been "Chapter Master for over 1.100 years" comes from, but it would seem to be an exception from GW's usual fluff regarding his age. Or was it perhaps an outsourced product written by different authors?

I'm also assuming that the 1.100 years refer to his own subjective age rather than any Warp distortions - given the nature of the Warp, it would otherwise be a bit weird to highlight his age as something special just because he may have made a journey that could well have seemed like a month to him but 800 years to everyone else. Remember, time spent in the Warp does not necessarily have to progress faster (although I believe that to be the standard).

*: that bit is actually from the very same article that discusses Space Marine lifespans - page 181 if anyone's interested!

 Lynata wrote:
I'm not sure where the bit about him having been "Chapter Master for over 1.100 years" comes from, but it would seem to be an exception from GW's usual fluff regarding his age. Or was it perhaps an outsourced product written by different authors?

Hmm... . Could also be me misremembering things. The new Blood Angels Codex does only put him at Chapter Master for 1000+ years - known to have lived for 1100 years and certainly being far older (pg12). Even Captain Lysander of the Imperial Fists who was lost in the warp for a thousand years can't recall a time when Dante didn't command the Blood Angels (pg 53). And the SM codex says Lysander lead the 1st company for two centuries before having his warp accident.

edit: if we believe that then Dante has been Commander for well over 1200 years, which sounds a bit odd if he's only lived 1100 - but warp travel can maybe explain some of it? I have no idea how the Imperium actually adjusts your age or doesn't for time spent in the Warp.

Dante says he's fought for 1100 years in the WD/PDF codex they had before the new one.

"For eleven hundred years, I
have fought, and I have seen
the darkness in our galaxy. I
have seen the vileness of the
alien and the heresy of the
mutant. I have witnessed the
sin of possession. I have seen
all the evil that the galaxy
harbors, and I have slain all
whose presence defiles the
Emperor. I have seen what you
will see. I have fought what
you must fight, and I have slain
what you must slay...

Commander Dante’s address at the
start of the Alchonis campaign."

Spetulhu wrote:Even Captain Lysander of the Imperial Fists who was lost in the warp for a thousand years can't recall a time when Dante didn't command the Blood Angels (pg 53). And the SM codex says Lysander lead the 1st company for two centuries before having his warp accident.

Oh yeah, I remember this being brought up a lot whenever people discuss Dante's age. However, the Codex actually says Lysander was lost in the Warp "for nearly 1.000" years. That doesn't mean 1.000 years on the day - it could well have been 900 or 800 years or something like that. And although we know the exact date when his ship reappeared (961.M41), the disappearance is only recorded as happening "in the latter years of M40".

Spetulhu wrote:if we believe that then Dante has been Commander for well over 1200 years, which sounds a bit odd if he's only lived 1100 - but warp travel can maybe explain some of it? I have no idea how the Imperium actually adjusts your age or doesn't for time spent in the Warp.

That's a fairly good idea for reconciling what might be a contradiction (although I'm not sure it actually is one just yet). Basically, 1.100 years of biological age, just some of it spent in the Warp and thus being around slightly longer than that?

Spetulhu wrote:Dante says he's fought for 1100 years in the WD/PDF codex they had before the new one.

That makes sense - Space Marines get recruited at young age (10-14 years), but I would assume that Dante would simply "round up" the time for his speech, as "for eleven hundred and twenty years I have fought" sounds a bit daft in comparison.