6th ed. Dark angels! The best codex ever seen?

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**Kroothawk**

I was surprised that it took Vetock 23 years in headquarters to get his first Codex written:

Jeremy Vetock - Games Designer
Jeremy joined Games Workshop in 1990 where he worked on White Dwarf and the Games Workshop website before moving to join the Design Studio in 2004. He has worked on the hobby team, done a stint as manager (don't worry, he's better now), and is now part of the Games Development team where his bad dice rolling skills are said to rival even those of Master Jervis Johnson. A lover of complex, ongoing campaigns and random weapon malfunctions charts, Jeremy has worked on the War of the Ring, Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 rulebooks as well as many army books as he can get his hands on (notably Skaven, Orcs & Goblins and Ogres). He freely admits that any of the bits you like, he probably wrote, while the stuff you found questionable was from 'some other guy'. Ask him about rule concepts or background, but don't get him talking about his own armies or he'll never stop.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=1&aId=22900007a&multiPageMode=true&start=2&_requestid=1501774
Granted, he wrote some army book before, but still ...

**Tiger9gamer**

the Divination libby can be devastating combined with the Banner of Devastation. 40 bolter shots w/ TL, x2 if you position another tactical squad next to it!

Ripped apart most of a Tyranid with it

**Noir**

LOL, this Codex really looks like it is balanced (still 10 bucks to much), to bad it for 6th edtion. But, what is the point of a well balanced book when the core rules need so much work.

**Jackster**

Azrael, a Divination Libby plust 50 Guardsmen sounds awesome.

**Adam LongWalker**

To me Balance is the eye of the beholder. The DA codex with the combination of Allies, to me is going to be a brutal combination. The Author did a pretty good job writing the codex according to GW doctrine.

**Spartan089**

Dr. What wrote:
70 pt 5 man tacticals make my CSM very sad (75 pts for 5 men, and we don't get the loyalist rules).

I think It'll be a strong army and it makes me curious as to what Vanilla SM will get, as everything becomes cheaper. Moreso, following this trend, what will Tau/Eldar (really cheap psykers?)/Orks (cheaper everything?) look like?

Im pretty angry about this......and the codex clearly has some broken rules. The overhaul they gave Samuel alone,

**Jackster**

Spartan089 wrote:
Dr. What wrote:
70 pt 5 man tacticals make my CSM very sad (75 pts for 5 men, and we don't get the loyalist rules).

I think It'll be a strong army and it makes me curious as to what Vanilla SM will get, as everything becomes cheaper. Moreso, following this trend, what will Tau/Eldar (really cheap psykers?)/Orks (cheaper everything?) look like?

Im pretty angry about this......and the codex clearly has some broken rules. The overhaul they gave Samuel alone,

That's because their vet sarge is optional. And honestly a tac shouldnt cost more than a Grey Hunter.

**ZebioLizard2**

Jackster wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:
Dr. What wrote:
70 pt 5 man tacticals make my CSM very sad (75 pts for 5 men, and we don't get the loyalist rules).

I think It'll be a strong army and it makes me curious as to what Vanilla SM will get, as everything becomes cheaper. Moreso, following this trend, what will Tau/Eldar (really cheap psykers?)/Orks (cheaper everything?) look like?

Im pretty angry about this......and the codex clearly has some broken rules. The overhaul they gave Samuel alone,

That's because their vet sarge is optional. And honestly a tac shouldnt cost more than a Grey Hunter.

Course that was because the Grey Hunter is undercosted by about 2 points.

**Jackster**

Well, that's true. Arguably more.

**Isengard**

punkow wrote:
KRUDD wrote:
punkow wrote:
Guys... I know, maybe this is an hyperbole, but reading the New DA dex I was truly amazed.
The number of options available is incredible, I'm still unable to make a list because I am overwhelmed by the different builds available. The internal balance is striking, there are no clearly OP or clearly bad units (maybe the flyers looks a little meh on the paper but I'm not sure).
All of this without being an OP cheesefest like Newcrons or GK.
Chapeau Mr. Vetock!
What do you guys think?

Im curious about the issue you have with, shall we use your term, "newcrons"? Ive been out of the scene for a long time, and had necrons well before the new codex. I havent had time to sit down and read through the whole thing yet as Im just in the mood to paint lately, not so much play right now, but what is the issue or discontent with the new codex and new necrons?

Well ... In general i like the necron codex... actually I'm absolutely not a Ward-hater (I think his codices are well made, with good internal balance and in the end, pretty much balanced against each other)
But the necron dex is plagued by "her"... the dreaded build that makes even leafblower IG envy its brokennes: CRON-AIR.... The Necron Flyerspam is the major source of the hate that necrons get.
EDIT: erhmmm maybe I used too much jargon... what I mean is that Necrons have the cance to seriously SPAM flyers while most of the armies currently around do not have the means to take them down... but apart from this build, necrons are a good army that can be very fun to play with or against... much more than other armies supposed to be "balanced" like the space wolves (the worst codex EVER in my humble opinion)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not a fan of the CSM codex though... It really lacks lots of options( few daemon weapons, no cult terminators, no rules for 4 chaos legions) and in general is not as internally balanced as the new DA one seems to be (eg: Daemon princes, raptors, berzerkers, Defilers...are clearly awful or at least situational choices, while others, like bikers and spawns are no-brainers)[/quote]

I'll have to disagree with you there. I think that if you want to really drill down and do complex equations then ok, but if you play fairly causally against other casual players who play for fun and don't spam armies the CSM is excellent. All the units you mention have roles and can be used well. The defiler, for example, has fearsome fire power, 4HP and It Will Not Die. It is hard to kill and can act as an anchor for a defensive line. If you want a gung-ho assault line army it is no good, it all depends. I think princes are excellent, they have a brutal stat line and can be given serious psychic powers. Raptors and berzerkers will also work well if deployed right. I think it depends upon what you want you want from a codex. I want a really broad variety of units. For CSM it was critical to me that you not be forced to have a multi-power army, as in 4th ed. I'm all for themed armies, the ability to have different armies, etc. I like that fact that you have the ability to go god specific if you want, to have a cultist centred horde, to have a highly elite force of terminators, you can have a cc army, a shooty army, take your pick. Not all of those forces will necessarily win every battle but that is not why I play. I want an impressive force on the table which I can be proud of and know has a certain feel and theme. I don't play tournaments.

**Callum1143**

Noir wrote:
LOL, this Codex really looks like it is balanced (still 10 bucks to much), to bad it for 6th edtion. But, what is the point of a well balanced book when the core rules need so much work.

A Librarian can't take a Sacred Standard, just Chapter relics.

**Spartan089**

Skilled Rider + Stealth + Turbo Boost = 2+ cover for the Black Knights.
Flat Out + Shrouding = 2+ cover for the Darkshroud.

-not balanced

**Jackster**

Spartan089 wrote:

Skilled Rider + Stealth + Turbo Boost = 2+ cover for the Black Knights.
Flat Out + Shrouding = 2+ cover for the Darkshroud.

-not balanced

On a squad of bikes that cost like termies and an AV10 vehicle with 2 hull points.

**Spartan089**

Jackster wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:

Skilled Rider + Stealth + Turbo Boost = 2+ cover for the Black Knights.
Flat Out + Shrouding = 2+ cover for the Darkshroud.

-not balanced

On a squad of bikes that cost like termies and an AV10 vehicle with 2 hull points.

On a squad of bikes (that are amazing this edition) that all have twin-linked plasma guns..... there is no comparison to termies here

**labmouse42**

Dr. What wrote:
70 pt 5 man tacticals make my CSM very sad (75 pts for 5 men, and we don't get the loyalist rules).

I think It'll be a strong army and it makes me curious as to what Vanilla SM will get, as everything becomes cheaper. Moreso, following this trend, what will Tau/Eldar (really cheap psykers?)/Orks (cheaper everything?) look like?

Your paying for the aspiring champion man. It's the tax of CSM. Every unit needs a champ

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
A librarian is only 65pts?!?! Heck, an IG Primaris pysker is 70 and all he gets is a force staff, flak armor, and mastery one with a +5 invuln. Oh, and a laspistol, because thats helpful

The IG psyker gets 2 powers from his chosen discipline. The Libby does not come with an invuln.
It's not as off as you might think

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Griddlelol wrote:
That huge discrepancy in pricing makes me nervous for the IG codex changes. The vendetta is so going to be more than 130pts. Although on the other hand, a PP for 40-50 points sounds awesome for a mech list.

considering the IG codex is considered top tier, I would not be in a rush for a new codex were I you. Vets likely will go back to elite choices. Luckily there are quite a few in line before IG

**AlmightyWalrus**

Spartan089 wrote:
Jackster wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:

Skilled Rider + Stealth + Turbo Boost = 2+ cover for the Black Knights.
Flat Out + Shrouding = 2+ cover for the Darkshroud.

-not balanced

On a squad of bikes that cost like termies and an AV10 vehicle with 2 hull points.

On a squad of bikes (that are amazing this edition) that all have twin-linked plasma guns..... there is no comparison to termies here

They've only got an 18" range. And considering that you can glance AV10 vehicles with S4 weapons it's hardly OP. Not to mention how fast it'll die to CC.

**labmouse42**

Spartan089 wrote:

Skilled Rider + Stealth + Turbo Boost = 2+ cover for the Black Knights.
Flat Out + Shrouding = 2+ cover for the Darkshroud.

-not balanced

Until you face that daemon player. Flamers and screamers don't care. Blood crushers will eat them for lunch.
Bike armies are a great rock/sissors/paper army. They destroy IG and do well vs MEQ, but have some bad matchups
Heck, even GK psybolt storm bolters wreck bike armies.

Don't get me wrong. DA bike armies will be amazing, but nowhere nearly as powerful as flamer/screamer spam. They will tear up some lists and fall apart to others

**hobojebus**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Jackster wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:
Dr. What wrote:
70 pt 5 man tacticals make my CSM very sad (75 pts for 5 men, and we don't get the loyalist rules).

I think It'll be a strong army and it makes me curious as to what Vanilla SM will get, as everything becomes cheaper. Moreso, following this trend, what will Tau/Eldar (really cheap psykers?)/Orks (cheaper everything?) look like?

Im pretty angry about this......and the codex clearly has some broken rules. The overhaul they gave Samuel alone,

That's because their vet sarge is optional. And honestly a tac shouldnt cost more than a Grey Hunter.

Course that was because the Grey Hunter is undercosted by about 2 points.

Well they were 17 before and worked just fine at that cost, it also made blood claws more attractive as a choice as they were cheaper.

**punkow**

Defilers difficult to take down? Absolutely not... I kept playing one for several matches and it NEVER passed turn 3 (usually falling turn 1-2)
Then I stopped... it's not WAAC list-buildin (I even play abaddon at 1500

)... simply 200 points is waaaaaaay too much for what you get. For the same amount you can almost take an entire allied guard contingent with a leman russ.
And about GH, they are of course one of the most unbalanced units in the most unbalanced codex (the worst codex ever seen IMHO... I have to start a thread maybe

).

And how a 2hp AV10 vehicles and 42 points each bikes are OP is simply incomprehensible to me...

**Arthas367**

As a Angel player since 4th I gotta say I am inlove with all the Detail and quirks of the units, Vetock wisely avoided the mistakes of Wolves, 5th ed knights, and Necrons, and gave great unit by unit flavor so they feel unique without leaving the opponent sorry he played you.

Though I can't help but feel sorry for basic Csm marines, compared to our Rites of battle ld10, stubborn, atsknf marines

**Griddlelol**

labmouse42 wrote:
considering the IG codex is considered top tier, I would not be in a rush for a new codex were I you. Vets likely will go back to elite choices. Luckily there are quite a few in line before IG

Oh I'm in no rush. I'm very happy with the IG codex right now. Plenty of options to stop me getting bored, and allies present new modelling opportunities.

**Goldshield**

I think one of the good things with the book is that this might be an actual book that traverses edition change much better then others just looking at how solid these builds can be. Azrael is probably one of the most solid Chapter Masters I have seen with his support of both DW and RW as well as being able to choose his warlord trait (which are good).

And I think Asmodai may just be my new favorite fluff character after reading his entries with an image in my head of this old crocthety and crazy Chaplain on Caliban.

**Byte**

10pt storm shields on Utility Vets. Vets, Tacs and Dev access to Flakk missiles... Yummy.

Did I mention Devs are dirt cheap in points?

I like the book alot. I'm gonna maul fliers with it. Deathwing and Ravenwing options are superb as well!

**Spartan089**

Arthas367 wrote:
As a Angel player since 4th I gotta say I am inlove with all the Detail and quirks of the units, Vetock wisely avoided the mistakes of Wolves, 5th ed knights, and Necrons, and gave great unit by unit flavor so they feel unique without leaving the opponent sorry he played you.

Though I can't help but feel sorry for basic Csm marines, compared to our Rites of battle ld10, stubborn, atsknf marines

Chaos got shafted, Dark Angels isnt the best codex ever written but it certainly is leagues better than the pike of gak called CSM.

**punkow**

Spartan089 wrote:
Arthas367 wrote:
As a Angel player since 4th I gotta say I am inlove with all the Detail and quirks of the units, Vetock wisely avoided the mistakes of Wolves, 5th ed knights, and Necrons, and gave great unit by unit flavor so they feel unique without leaving the opponent sorry he played you.

Though I can't help but feel sorry for basic Csm marines, compared to our Rites of battle ld10, stubborn, atsknf marines

Chaos got shafted, Dark Angels isnt the best codex ever written but it certainly is leagues better than the pike of gak called CSM.

And what are the best codices ever written in your opinion (limiting ourselves to 3rd and susequent editions). Maybe it's a little early to say that but I don't remember another dex with the options of the Dark Angels AND a good balance.

**Quintinus**

punkow wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:
Arthas367 wrote:
As a Angel player since 4th I gotta say I am inlove with all the Detail and quirks of the units, Vetock wisely avoided the mistakes of Wolves, 5th ed knights, and Necrons, and gave great unit by unit flavor so they feel unique without leaving the opponent sorry he played you.

Though I can't help but feel sorry for basic Csm marines, compared to our Rites of battle ld10, stubborn, atsknf marines

Chaos got shafted, Dark Angels isnt the best codex ever written but it certainly is leagues better than the pike of gak called CSM.

And what are the best codices ever written in your opinion (limiting ourselves to 3rd and susequent editions). Maybe it's a little early to say that but I don't remember another dex with the options of the Dark Angels AND a good balance.

No Chaos codex has ever been "balanced" but then again no codex has ever had super good balance so that's a red herring. And of course if you ignore the best Chaos codices ever written (Realms of Chaos) then it's a bit more difficult to choose.

On topic though, I like the new Dark Angels codex. They got a lot of pretty sweet units. The Deathwing Knights are insanely good and Deathwing Terminators when they deepstrike are going to violate (without consent) any unit that they shoot at.

In all, seems pretty true to the background and while there is some stuff that is super over the top, they feel like Dark Angels which is cool.

**Flashman**

The army list is by and large very good. Not too bland and boring (see last DA Codex), but not over the top silly (See Space Wolves Codex).

Very little new stuff in the background section, though personally this is the first time I've seen it confirmed in black and white that Lion El'Johnson is sleeping inside the Rock. I did like the coverage of the Second Founding Chapters.

Photo section was efficient, but pretty much what I've come to expect.

There are a few irritating typos e.g. Normal Command Squads and Deathwing Command Squads take Sacred Standards. Ravenwing Command Squads have access to non-existent Relic Banners.

Overall I'd say the book is far too expensive for what it is. A decent FoW book (North Africa, Red Bear etc) is the twice the no. of pages for the same price. The days of buying every Codex are long gone.

**Backfire**

Arthas367 wrote:
As a Angel player since 4th I gotta say I am inlove with all the Detail and quirks of the units, Vetock wisely avoided the mistakes of Wolves, 5th ed knights, and Necrons, and gave great unit by unit flavor so they feel unique without leaving the opponent sorry he played you.

Though I can't help but feel sorry for basic Csm marines, compared to our Rites of battle ld10, stubborn, atsknf marines

Azrael's the only one with Rites of Battle though. I assume we're going to see now more of him, as he's quite bit better now.

**Experiment 626**

punkow wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:
Arthas367 wrote:
As a Angel player since 4th I gotta say I am inlove with all the Detail and quirks of the units, Vetock wisely avoided the mistakes of Wolves, 5th ed knights, and Necrons, and gave great unit by unit flavor so they feel unique without leaving the opponent sorry he played you.

Though I can't help but feel sorry for basic Csm marines, compared to our Rites of battle ld10, stubborn, atsknf marines

Chaos got shafted, Dark Angels isnt the best codex ever written but it certainly is leagues better than the pike of gak called CSM.

And what are the best codices ever written in your opinion (limiting ourselves to 3rd and susequent editions). Maybe it's a little early to say that but I don't remember another dex with the options of the Dark Angels AND a good balance.

a) You will NEVER have a book that makes CSM players happy unless it's a 900 odd page tome that gives every whiny girl their 100 or so special snowflake rules... 3.5 was an unmitigated disaster of OP silliness and 4th was bland as all hell.
The current one tries to do a bit of both and overall lets you theme to any legion or renegade chapter you can imagine, but obviously it can't do what individual legion-specific codicies could do.

b) The best Codex from 3rd edition to present is easily the 4.5 Ork codex. The background is awsome and solidly orky, the army list is still competitive despite 2 edition changes and even the couple of so-called 'dud units' aren't nearly as laughable as other codices terd units.
And most of all, it's a fun book to use AND play against. Nothing super cheesey, even during the wound-allocation-games of 5th Nob Bikers still weren't anything as horribad as what other similar units could pull... (looking at you true T5 Bloodcrushers and you horrible Paladins that needed 11 wounds before a single dude died!!!)

Dark Eldar were also pretty damn solid, the edition change simply gimped them badly.

5th ed Vanilla Marines are also still a great book, despite the initial moans about 3++ storm shields.

Orks still beat them out though!

**Flashman**

Experiment 626 wrote:

a) You will NEVER have a book that makes CSM players happy unless it's a 900 odd page tome that gives every whiny girl their 100 or so special snowflake rules... 3.5 was an unmitigated disaster of OP silliness

Really? How was it OP?