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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Justyn wrote:

I really think this has more to do with the fact that decently priced high quality plastic mini's like the two produced would simply put IWM out of business. I believe IWM and Catalyst while not the same company are run by friends or have some non-competitive contract or something. A set of the 24 most popular IS mechs and 12 most popular Clan mechs done properly in plastic would sell amazingly well. Either as individuals or sets. Of course this would not be conducive to selling TROs with 50 new designs every year or two either.

Perhaps they gave it up to support Leviathans instead. That would be a mistake in my opinion, I've played Leviathans, its not bad, but there are already steampunk ship games that are quite popular around. It brought nothing new that stood out as..... must buy this game. The models are decent, if pricey for injection molded plastic, but they look very much the same be they British or French, and the artwork for the Germans and Italians are.... more of the same. I understand they wanted the 'Leviathans Look'. but it ends up looking very generic.


I think part of the problem CGL is facing for high quality plastics is that I think its something they have to clear with TOPPS first (not to mention the high cost). TOPPS I think is hesitant for what they see as high cost high risk plastics considering what happened to them with MW Dark Ages.

Also CGL is pretty small and seems to have issues doing several projects at once. Leviathans was in works for years and got held up over a year cause of production issues.


 
   
Made in au
Nimble Dark Rider




Justyn wrote:


I really think this has more to do with the fact that decently priced high quality plastic mini's like the two produced would simply put IWM out of business. I believe IWM and Catalyst while not the same company are run by friends or have some non-competitive contract or something. A set of the 24 most popular IS mechs and 12 most popular Clan mechs done properly in plastic would sell amazingly well. Either as individuals or sets. Of course this would not be conducive to selling TROs with 50 new designs every year or two either.

Perhaps they gave it up to support Leviathans instead. That would be a mistake in my opinion, I've played Leviathans, its not bad, but there are already steampunk ship games that are quite popular around. It brought nothing new that stood out as..... must buy this game. The models are decent, if pricey for injection molded plastic, but they look very much the same be they British or French, and the artwork for the Germans and Italians are.... more of the same. I understand they wanted the 'Leviathans Look'. but it ends up looking very generic.



Well wargames factory is handling the plastics for leviathans. Couldn't they simply farm the numerous clan mech CAD files out to those guys? The same ones that the current line of metal mechs are made from? As you point out IWM must be the anchor here. Them and the forum full of people who wont accept anything but metal models.

As for plastics I agree they would tank catalyst. But not because of the costs involved. Due to their general fiscal mismanagement. Plastics need to be sold in large batches, and they made less than 10,000 of their last boxed set. And it takes them 1 year + to reprint the same box.

Heck the IWM model of high quality miniatures effectively printed on demand would better suit the Resin way of doing things, rather than metal.

Well, I guess you could all wait instead for the Robotech minis game kickstarter next month and see if those minis are the same scale and more affordable. At least you'd end up with stuff that looks like the original macross style models that came out.



This interests me. Also blows Catalysts claims about how hard it is to license these designs right out of the water.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

If that is genuinly what they're being charged for a digital sculpt/CAD conversion

then they need to find a new sculptor &/or production partner. I just don't belive there is nowhere in the USA (if they want to avoid international stuff ) that can do the same (or better) job cheaper.

 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If that is genuinly what they're being charged for a digital sculpt/CAD conversion

then they need to find a new sculptor &/or production partner. I just don't belive there is nowhere in the USA (if they want to avoid international stuff ) that can do the same (or better) job cheaper.


Yeah, I know some fellow students in my field who could probably do a better job, and probably for fairly cheap, being students and all. There's no reason for them to be charging this much for those models.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

Wow this project actually lost a backer today!
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If that is genuinly what they're being charged for a digital sculpt/CAD conversion

then they need to find a new sculptor &/or production partner. I just don't belive there is nowhere in the USA (if they want to avoid international stuff ) that can do the same (or better) job cheaper.


IWM went from saying this in 2011 in regartds to the unreleased fan funded 9 LAM Models:
Brent Evans contacted Mike Noe with a proposal for a CAD production of ALL NINE LAM modes -- the mech-, air-mech, and pure air-modes of the the Phoenix Hawk, Wasp and Stinger LAMs using the special orthographic 3D drawings designed for use with a rapid prototype machine by their artist, Stephen Huda. These apparently could be produced ( because the orthographic drawings are completed ) for about $100.00 per each model ( i.e., about $900.00 ). Some work/fine-tuning to make them mold ready would need to be done by a human but basically a much lower cost and another goal was to ensure the correct scaling.


To saying this now in 2013?

3D CAD is not a cheaper way to sculpt mechs. Using the free drawings from Steve Huda, we spent over $2,000 to have the Waneta ground mode printed. Multiply that by nine and $18,000 of the $25,000 goal goes to produce the masters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/12 02:28:05


 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

I still cant believe how completely oblivious IWM is to the reason why as a company they are a relative failure and this Kickstart illustrates just how incapable they are of embracing fan involvement and unwilling they are to adapt and take advantage of new technology and materials. Not to mention their complete lack of enthusiasm or willingness to really drive interest or encouragement in any projects they are involved in. For example their jumping exclusives available at cons, many have expressed disinterest in the models or have come up with creative suggestions for desirable jumping exclusives, so they ignore it and put out an ugly unappealing yet again another version of the Atlas, even after a poll was conducted and a jumping Highlander far exceeded all other suggestions for jumping exclusives. Or they post a poll for which DA sculpts were wanted as future pewter versions, they release one or two from the winning mechs and just ignore the others, even the number one winner. Their hand sculptor has grown tired, bored and unenthusiastic with the line but they continue use him even after substandard models of his are produced. They get a huge fan funding of the nine original reseen LAMs to which they find out CAD sculpted versions can be produced at a fraction of the cost 2 years ago, but barely a word on the subject as to why these are never actually produced. Only to be called out on this topic and then they claim the CAD sculpts lost all detail when transferred to pewter molds. Instead of moving to a resin material which could be sculpted for $100 a mold, they go for this outrageous over priced Kickstart project. To which, they provide a minor single update and promise to come up with stretch goals 11days before the Kickstart ends, only to fail at keeping that commitment yet again.

Sadly this pretty much is the same story for all the license holders for Battletech. Fighting Pirhanna, Heavy Metal Pro, whoever it is who is working on the Xbox game, they all fail to keep basic commitments and if they ever release new products it's substandard and only released after failing to keep the most basic of commitments in the process. I think allot of my CBT minis are going up on eBay very soon.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/20 04:32:52


 
   
Made in au
Nimble Dark Rider




 NecronLord3 wrote:
I still cant believe how completely oblivious IWM is to the reason why as a company they are a relative failure and this Kickstart illustrates just how incapable they are of imbracing fan involvement and unwilling they are to adapt and take advantage of new technology and materials. Not to mention their complete lack of enthusiasm or willingness to really drive interest or encouragement in any projects they are involved in. For example their jumping exclusives available at cons, many have expressed disinterest in the models or have come up withcrearivesuggestions for desirable jumping exclusives, so they ignore it and put outan ugly unappealing yet again another version of the Atlas, even after a pole was conducted and a jumping Highlander far exceeded all other suggestions for jumping exclusives. Or they post a poll for which DA sculpts were wanted as future pewter versions, they release one or two from the winning mechs and just ignore the others, even the number one winner. Their hand sculptor has grown tired, bored and unenthusiastic with the line but they continue use him even after substandard models of his are produced. They get a huge fan funding of the nine original reseen LAMs to which they find out CAD sculpted versions can be produced at a fraction of the cost 2 years ago, but barely a word on the subject as to why these are never actually produced. Only to be called out on this topic and then they claim the CAD sculpts lost all detail when transferred to pewter molds. Instead of moving to a resin material which could be sculpted for $100 a mold, they go for this outrageous over priced Kickstart project. To which, they provide a minor single update and promise to come up with stretch goals 11days before the Kickstart ends, only to fail at keeping that commitment yet again.

Sadly this pretty much is the same story for all the license holders for Battletech. Fighting Pirhanna, Heavy Metal Pro, whoever it is who is working on the Xbox game, they all fail to keep basic commitments and if they ever release new products it's substandard and only released after failing to keep the most basic of commitments in the process. I think allot of my CBT minis are going up on eBay very soon.


I really cant do anything but agree. The only thing keeping battletech alive is the fandom. But how long can that last? All they need to do is try (Boxed sets for example) and they have a product that they sell out of immediately. They must be trying very hard to fail. Because seriously, anyone with half a mind could keep that company afloat, even with half the contractors funds going in to painting their houses.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

Well little over 9 days to go and they announced the stretch goals which are the original 9 reseen LAM models if it gets to 40k. So they can't raise 25k in 15 days, so they think they can get it to 40k in the next 9 days wtf? Seriously this is such an insult to those who fan funded the LAM project 2 years ago which IWM did nothing with.
   
Made in ca
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Ontario Canada

I have to say this kickstarter is a massive disappointment. IWM could have gone in so many other directions with crowd source funding, instead they are opting to produce overpriced niche mechs (LAMs? really?) in an already niche market. When your business model ( oh you want that mech, its "archived" so you need to pay double for it) drives customers away to online vendors trying to liquidate stock, you may have an issue.

I have some of the old single piece casts (lead even) and they are as detailed as the new ones. the quality of the new casts are questionable to nightmarish, with what appears to be the mold slipping or moving (misaligned and huge amounts of flash).

Our group plays on and off, but always in that 3025 to 3055 sweet spot, so the piss poor support doesn't really matter.

NecronLord3, if you do sell, drop me a PM or at least post a link in the swap forum.


 
   
Made in au
Nimble Dark Rider




Mecha_buddha wrote:
I have to say this kickstarter is a massive disappointment. IWM could have gone in so many other directions with crowd source funding, instead they are opting to produce overpriced niche mechs (LAMs? really?) in an already niche market. When your business model ( oh you want that mech, its "archived" so you need to pay double for it) drives customers away to online vendors trying to liquidate stock, you may have an issue.


Yeah well, if they hadn't gone out of their way to nerf LAMs with the current rules more people would be interested in paying for them.

   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

I agree that this is kickstarter is a massive disappointment. Looking at Kicktraq...
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1050509756/battletech-word-of-blake-spectral-lams/
... It's still very much an open question whether it will even be reached.

I would point out to those taking aim at the entire battletech enterprise, that IWM -who makes the metal models-, is a completely different company from Catalyst/Topps -who makes the game books, maps, supplements and starter box sets- is a completely different company.

As far as I can tell, Catalyst is doing a great job releasing new material, re-releasing virtually all oop BT books on PDF's. I don't particularly like the game of battletech, but it seems like the publishing arm is doing a great job, and that's alot of what BT fans like about the game.

As long as the publishing arm does well and IWM manages to make metal versions of a good portion of the mechs, I don't see BT going away any time soon.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Servoarm Flailing Magos







I think the designs are kind of neat, personally. Perhaps not amazing, but not bad.

IWM does a pretty cool job considering the massive stock of stuff they support. Maybe this wasn't the best choice for a Kickstarter, but it might be feeling out stuff for future projects.

Are LAMS that 'big' in Battletech now? I thought they were pretty niche and a source of division in the BT community. it might make sense to get the bugs worked out on a less common model, then move on to use the new workflow for more higher-profile models.

Working on someting you'll either love or hate. Hopefully to be revealed by November.
Play the games that make you happy. 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Texas

Eilif wrote:
I don't see BT going away any time soon.


BT has one thing going for it, it never dies. Just wax and wanes in popularity

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

Their printing and modelling costs seem to be out of whack. With a multipart model that scale their printing costs shouldn't be more than around $600 tops and realisticlly it should be in the $300-$400 range.

In order to make vulcanized rubber molds the master has to hold up to pressure and heat so they need to have them printed with a ceramic infused resin, which increases cost but even then it's not as expensive as they are claiming. You can also save a huge amount of money by printing it on an objet machine for about $50 but that requires more final clean up by hand and recasting it in silver or resin to serve as a master. An extra hoop to jump through but can easily knock several hundred off the price.

Even with outsourcing mold making, printing, and model design it shouldn't run more than $1k per model if they do it right. Being capable of doing all the molding in house I'd expect that to be a fair amount less.




 kenshin620 wrote:
BT has one thing going for it, it never dies. Just wax and wanes in popularity


Battletech, too old to die.



.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/15 20:34:10


Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 paulson games wrote:
Their printing and modelling costs seem to be out of whack. With a multipart model that scale their printing costs shouldn't be more than around $600 tops and realisticlly it should be in the $300-$400 range.

In order to make vulcanized rubber molds the master has to hold up to pressure and heat so they need to have them printed with a ceramic infused resin, which increases cost but even then it's not as expensive as they are claiming. You can also save a huge amount of money by printing it on an objet machine for about $50 but that requires more final clean up by hand and recasting it in silver or resin to serve as a master. An extra hoop to jump through but can easily knock several hundred off the price.

Even with outsourcing mold making, printing, and model design it shouldn't run more than $1k per model if they do it right. Being capable of doing all the molding in house I'd expect that to be a fair amount less.




 kenshin620 wrote:
BT has one thing going for it, it never dies. Just wax and wanes in popularity


Battletech, too old to die.



.


Apparently someone got in touch with them and advised them of some methods to save some money so thats why the first stretch goal (at 25,100) is adding an extra 3 models. Then 5k for each additional 3 models.


 
   
Made in us
The New Miss Macross!





Deep Frier of Mount Doom

keisukekun wrote:
Apparently someone got in touch with them and advised them of some methods to save some money so thats why the first stretch goal (at 25,100) is adding an extra 3 models. Then 5k for each additional 3 models.


Or maybe they realized that the jig is up which is why so few people are buying the excuse...
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




GBL wrote:
 NecronLord3 wrote:
I still cant believe how completely oblivious IWM is to the reason why as a company they are a relative failure and this Kickstart illustrates just how incapable they are of imbracing fan involvement and unwilling they are to adapt and take advantage of new technology and materials. Not to mention their complete lack of enthusiasm or willingness to really drive interest or encouragement in any projects they are involved in. For example their jumping exclusives available at cons, many have expressed disinterest in the models or have come up withcrearivesuggestions for desirable jumping exclusives, so they ignore it and put outan ugly unappealing yet again another version of the Atlas, even after a pole was conducted and a jumping Highlander far exceeded all other suggestions for jumping exclusives. Or they post a poll for which DA sculpts were wanted as future pewter versions, they release one or two from the winning mechs and just ignore the others, even the number one winner. Their hand sculptor has grown tired, bored and unenthusiastic with the line but they continue use him even after substandard models of his are produced. They get a huge fan funding of the nine original reseen LAMs to which they find out CAD sculpted versions can be produced at a fraction of the cost 2 years ago, but barely a word on the subject as to why these are never actually produced. Only to be called out on this topic and then they claim the CAD sculpts lost all detail when transferred to pewter molds. Instead of moving to a resin material which could be sculpted for $100 a mold, they go for this outrageous over priced Kickstart project. To which, they provide a minor single update and promise to come up with stretch goals 11days before the Kickstart ends, only to fail at keeping that commitment yet again.

Sadly this pretty much is the same story for all the license holders for Battletech. Fighting Pirhanna, Heavy Metal Pro, whoever it is who is working on the Xbox game, they all fail to keep basic commitments and if they ever release new products it's substandard and only released after failing to keep the most basic of commitments in the process. I think allot of my CBT minis are going up on eBay very soon.


I really cant do anything but agree. The only thing keeping battletech alive is the fandom. But how long can that last? All they need to do is try (Boxed sets for example) and they have a product that they sell out of immediately. They must be trying very hard to fail. Because seriously, anyone with half a mind could keep that company afloat, even with half the contractors funds going in to painting their houses.


Pretty much exactly what I thought when I saw this project. It wasn't even the price. It was the claim that it took them THIS LONG to get printing to metal affordable and...well the fact that metal is the end product period. Some of their mini's are an absolute nightmare to assemble. GW has been switching over to plastic and honestly I like their models far more than any Battletech model I've ever seen. The later Dark Age ones might've been an exception if they were a little better and the game wasn't designed with such a short lifespan flaw built in.

It's not like they have to change over an entire line over night though. If they could just build some sort of starter set or mech set with a purpose and even come close to offering the flexibility and ease in assembly Citadel's plastics and slowly move on that would be fine. I might overlook the old way out of scale Ral Partha models they've been using. I mean I entirely understand that plastic models are far more expensive, certainly they could offset it a little by offering set mechs as singles as well, but between BT and WH40K I lean towards the latter period. Beyond the game the models are just more fun to build and customize and convert and that's something Battletech could have if it wanted. Other war gaming lines seem to get that.

Though on the topic of the models I honestly don't like the headless look but I haven't liked any of the new LAM designs yet. They all seem focused on having the pilot in a recognizable fighter cockpit which doesn't make any sense to me really.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

keisukekun wrote:

Apparently someone got in touch with them and advised them of some methods to save some money so thats why the first stretch goal (at 25,100) is adding an extra 3 models. Then 5k for each additional 3 models.


That someone was John Bear Ross who's a pretty big name in 15m scale stuff and very experienced with 3d sculpting. He probably told them a lot of the same stuff I posted and plenty of extra stuff I didn't mention.

It's not hard to do the research to figure this stuff out, IWM has been around for the better part of 30 years so I would have thought they knew the current direction of industry a bit better but maybe they are just too old school and traditional. Reading their page about the project they seem to have been printing the stuff in metal which is about the worst route to go in terms of both costs and detail level.


It's nice to see them cut a "price break" of sorts as a reward but I still think it's a very high price to get those models and while I like the concept of LAMs the rules for them have always stunk and these designs are just fugly.

The classic LAMS were good because they were based on Macross designs which are hard to top, but this new batch isn't even close. It's like when go bots try to do knock off transformers, the designs are weak and just go over poorly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/16 07:58:18


Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

$1102+ needed a day to reach the minimum goal of $25,000.

$3602+ per day to reach the stretch goals of $40,000.

6 Days left.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/18 18:56:34


 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

This one's going to be close! The kicktraq projection gives a range of 21k to 26k ending.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

There's 48 hours left and still 5k to make up. It's probably slightly early to call it a missed target but it doesn't look good.

Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Crawfordsville Indiana

How long after end do they collect? since I can get all airmech modes at the $70 pledge, I have become interested, but I don't get paid until Monday, and my Direct Deposit won't be active this pay day, so I won't have money until Tuesday.

All the worlds a joke and the people merely punchlines
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

I'm not sure, I think it depends on the company running it. With both Zombicide and Sedition Wars my card was charged within a hour or two of the kickstarter closing. You should probably email IWM or contact them through kickstarter to make sure.

Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




IWM just added a pretty sweet reward for 185 backers and up. A $40 coupon to the web store. That brings down 12 count mini cost to just over 12. Still have my fingers crossed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 16:46:42



 
   
Made in us
The New Miss Macross!





Deep Frier of Mount Doom

While that is a nice jesture, I think they unfortunately squandered most of the good will that creating nice looking LAMs would have brought them with high initial prices and dubious claims. If they had those types of offers to begin with, they likely would have hit a few goals instead of a last minute rush towards minimum funding.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

And they are nice enough to let you pay their flat rate shipping charge of $10 on that $40 store credit.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I'd be wary of that offer, as coupons/discount vouchers etc are against KS terms of service (I think)

they might have to roll back on it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 19:40:44


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Texas

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'd be wary of that offer, as coupons/discount vouchers etc are against KS terms of service,

the might have to roll back on it


Sadly this is correct

The full rules for "prohibited content"

Prohibited rewards. Raffles, discounts, coupons, contests, and investment offers are prohibited. For more, please review our list of prohibited items and subject matter.



Though a tad off topic, wonder what they mean by discounts seeing thats what a lot of KS do...

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 paulson games wrote:
Their printing and modelling costs seem to be out of whack. With a multipart model that scale their printing costs shouldn't be more than around $600 tops and realisticlly it should be in the $300-$400 range.

In order to make vulcanized rubber molds the master has to hold up to pressure and heat so they need to have them printed with a ceramic infused resin, which increases cost but even then it's not as expensive as they are claiming. You can also save a huge amount of money by printing it on an objet machine for about $50 but that requires more final clean up by hand and recasting it in silver or resin to serve as a master. An extra hoop to jump through but can easily knock several hundred off the price.

Even with outsourcing mold making, printing, and model design it shouldn't run more than $1k per model if they do it right. Being capable of doing all the molding in house I'd expect that to be a fair amount less.



Yah, we have been using a wax printer for a lot of the 3D stuff we have done up then have those converted to silver or bronze through lost wax casting. After that - it is just regular vulcanized molds and all that. The wax print costs a bit...but it is nice and smooth. Our largest one so far was bout 3" tall and that cost almost $1000 (though it was also about 3" wide and long as well...). The metal master costs us another $50 plus metal costs through a local jeweler. All in (sculpting, printing, masters, molds...), the very most expensive model we have done ended up being about $1500 - though that gets you to the molds and you can spread those costs over your production run.

I would guess that they probably went through a company who "specializes" in rapid prototyping as opposed to actually sourcing individual services. I know that several of those companies carry a front loaded cost upwards of a few thousand dollars...mostly because they deal primarily with corporate types who either don't care or can't be bothered to actually do their own research and management.
   
 
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