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 yakface wrote:

 jadedknight wrote:
Ah yes confirmed MSS'd unit's strike on init step.

It occurs to me that this rule helps units like Wraiths with whip coils. If the Deathwing Knights aren't all on the same Init step for some reason it seems like Smite can't be used. Reactions?

Yeah, 'at the same time' is incredibly vague and needs to be FAQ'd because its open to interpretation. I do not think it means 'at the same initiative step', because as you point out if any models in the unit are swinging at a different Init step (due to Whip Coils, for example), then this would prevent the unit from using Smite Mode, which is pretty absurd.

Rather I think it just means all the models must choose to utilize Smite Mode at the same time. Meaning the CHOICE occurs at the same time even if the attacks end up being staggered by Initiative.

Yeah I agree with that.

HIWPI for sure but agree it is very vague.

I think the bit about the entire unit having to use the ability thwarts MSS. It would be like if the DA player tried to use the ability on just one knight. The DA player cant do it, so neither can the Necron can't do it.
The rules do not say that if one knight tries to use the ability all the knights must use it. The Necron player does not control the other knights.

tgf wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 jadedknight wrote:
Ah yes confirmed MSS'd unit's strike on init step.

It occurs to me that this rule helps units like Wraiths with whip coils. If the Deathwing Knights aren't all on the same Init step for some reason it seems like Smite can't be used. Reactions?

Yeah, 'at the same time' is incredibly vague and needs to be FAQ'd because its open to interpretation. I do not think it means 'at the same initiative step', because as you point out if any models in the unit are swinging at a different Init step (due to Whip Coils, for example), then this would prevent the unit from using Smite Mode, which is pretty absurd.

Rather I think it just means all the models must choose to utilize Smite Mode at the same time. Meaning the CHOICE occurs at the same time even if the attacks end up being staggered by Initiative.

Yeah I agree with that.

I also agree with this, otherwise all that is required to prevent Smite from ever being used would be a challenge. If one DWK is in a challenge, then he cannot be swinging that mace at the same time as his brothers, and thus Smite Mode cannot be used in the combat.

 azazel the cat wrote:
I also agree with this, otherwise all that is required to prevent Smite from ever being used would be a challenge. If one DWK is in a challenge, then he cannot be swinging that mace at the same time as his brothers, and thus Smite Mode cannot be used in the combat.

The only character in the unit never uses a Mace of Absolution so it's not an issue.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I also agree with this, otherwise all that is required to prevent Smite from ever being used would be a challenge. If one DWK is in a challenge, then he cannot be swinging that mace at the same time as his brothers, and thus Smite Mode cannot be used in the combat.

The only character in the unit never uses a Mace of Absolution so it's not an issue.

Plus, even if the character had a mace, if the initiative values are the same then those models swing simultaneously.

A challenge does not make a character, with the same initiative value as his squad, swing at a different time.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Plus, even if the character had a mace, if the initiative values are the same then those models swing simultaneously.

A challenge does not make a character, with the same initiative value as his squad, swing at a different time.

Yeah I considered mentioning that but didn't bother, the rulebook suggests for cinematic purposes you might like to resolve the challenge separately, but by the stock rules they provide, it's handled at the same time as all the other fighting.

Since the only precedent for this is the GK force weapons ( one model being forced to do X, which forces the entire unit to do X) then I say maybe they can. My question is, is the Smite rule a rule the MODEL can use or is the Smite rule on the weapon's profile itself? If it's on the weapon's profile, then I say by all means use it just like MSS can force...Force, which IS a SR of the weapon, not the model. It needs a FAQ, and i don't see how this wasn't seen in advance by the FAQ people, with how big a debacle the Force argument was....if only to clarify what precedent already shows us. But of course, no-one wants to use that if it's negative for themselves....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it doesnt matter about the actual I step the DWKs swing at does it? The smite rule happens before any blows are struck in the Sub-phase, at the same time MSS goes off. Which means, that if its the Necron players turn, he gets to decide the order things go in. Although, the only thing it changes if "who" chooses to use smite, either the Necron player forcing smite or the DA player using his own Rule, which would in turn effect the MSS'd DWK, assuming he fails the LD test. Also note, just bc the Necron player has a DWK MSS'd, doesn't mean he can deny the entire unit Smite; he can only force it.

It also occurs to me, why would a Necron want to force a SR that makes the entire unit ID anything in his unit (heck, anything in the Codex minus the Shard, but who plays them?), almost guaranteeing his unit to be wiped out, making the strategic benefit of MSS counter-productive. Not to mention, the MSS'd DWK is striking against models with a 3++...maybe if the Cron was alone against a unit of DWKs??

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I think the bit about the entire unit having to use the ability thwarts MSS. It would be like if the DA player tried to use the ability on just one knight. The DA player cant do it, so neither can the Necron can't do it.
The rules do not say that if one knight tries to use the ability all the knights must use it. The Necron player does not control the other knights.

You mean like MSS vs NFW? MSS user gets to activate for the entire unit.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I think the bit about the entire unit having to use the ability thwarts MSS. It would be like if the DA player tried to use the ability on just one knight. The DA player cant do it, so neither can the Necron can't do it.

So you contend that if a Necron player successfully uses MSS on one model in the unit then the unit isn't allowed to use Smite Mode that round as they're not allowed to 'force' the MSS model to engage Smite mode if he doesn't want?


Again, this isn't like the DA player trying to use it on one Knight...in fact its the polar opposite. The Smite Mode rule says that all models in the unit MUST use Smite Mode at the same time and the MSS rules give the Necron player the choice to use weapon abilities of the model they're controlling.

So the Necron player chooses to use Smite Mode and then because of the Smite Mode rule, the rest of the unit must also use Smite Mode.

You say:

The rules do not say that if one knight tries to use the ability all the knights must use it. The Necron player does not control the other knights.

Yet that's actually precisely what the Smite Mode rules say. It says that all models in the unit must use Smite Mode at the same time. So if the DA player wanted to use it on only one of his models he can't, the entire unit must use the ability.

So again, when MSS is in play, since both players have access to the model's weapon abilities, if either player chooses to use Smite Mode then the entire unit must do so.

But if somehow some models are striking before others (because of Whip Coils, etc) and those models choose not to use Smite Mode, then the models attacking at a later Initiative step would not be able to activate Smite mode as doing so at that point would break the Smite Mode rule requiring the entire unit to use the ability at the same time.

yakface wrote:But if somehow some models are striking before others (because of Whip Coils, etc) and those models choose not to use Smite Mode, then the models attacking at a later Initiative step would not be able to activate Smite mode as doing so at that point would break the Smite Mode rule requiring the entire unit to use the ability at the same time.

I'm inclined to believe that Smite Mode's "at the same time" is meant to refer to the same combat and nothing more specific than that; as I suspect that the rule was designed to prevent players from needing to mark which units have depleted their Smite Mode and which haven't.

 yakface wrote:
So again, when MSS is in play, since both players have access to the model's weapon abilities, if either player chooses to use Smite Mode then the entire unit must do so.

I agree with the conclusion, but disagree on both players being actually allowed to make the choice.
If MSS'd model and other model with Smite are striking at same Initiative (and this is first Initiative step that model with Smite is making attack), this means they both have a choice of using Smite and that making of that choice happens at exactly same time. Page 9 states that in these cases, current player chooses the order to resolve. And if current player decides not to use Smite, whole unit is bound by that decision.

 yakface wrote:
But if somehow some models are striking before others (because of Whip Coils, etc) and those models choose not to use Smite Mode, then the models attacking at a later Initiative step would not be able to activate Smite mode as doing so at that point would break the Smite Mode rule requiring the entire unit to use the ability at the same time.

This is evidently true.

Moral of the story: Don't allow Necron with MSS to charge you.

Yep, charge the MSS dude and put the Deathwing Knight champion into base to base with the destroyer lord, DWK Champion doesnt have smite mode so would not be able to use it.

Luide wrote:

 yakface wrote:
So again, when MSS is in play, since both players have access to the model's weapon abilities, if either player chooses to use Smite Mode then the entire unit must do so.

I agree with the conclusion, but disagree on both players being actually allowed to make the choice.
If MSS'd model and other model with Smite are striking at same Initiative (and this is first Initiative step that model with Smite is making attack), this means they both have a choice of using Smite and that making of that choice happens at exactly same time. Page 9 states that in these cases, current player chooses the order to resolve. And if current player decides not to use Smite, whole unit is bound by that decision.

But the rules for Smite Mode do not say anything about NOT making a decision to utilize Smite mode. It is very simple: All models in the unit must use Smite Mode at the same time. So there is no timing conflict that needs to be resolved by the player whose turn it is. So if the DA player is the one whose turn it is and he sees one of his Deathwing Knights get MSS'd, when it comes to the I4 step the DA player can say that he doesn't want to use Smite Mode for the unit, but if the Necron player decides to then the decision has been made, as all models in the unit must use Smite Mode at the same time.

Similarly if the Necron player doesn't want to use Smite Mode for his MSS attacks, but the DA player does then again it doesn't matter as all models in the unit must use Smite Mode at the same time.

The reason the page 9 proviso doesn't apply here is because there's no official 'trigger moment' in time where players have to declare what weapons their models are attacking with. So this is simply a case of whether either player wants to use Smite Mode and if either of them do, then the unit is using it whether the other player disagrees or not.

Again, all models must use it or none can; one model wanting to use it is not sufficient, as that is not the whole unit.

This is different from NFW because that is a consquence of taking the test which is based on a singular event; the first unsaved wound.

Here you have n models. If (n-1) models do not elect to use Smite, you cannot use smite. If n elect to use Smite, you can use smite. Except where n=1, a MSS victim is always in the former.

From what I read though, sarg cant use the smite mode?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, all models must use it or none can; one model wanting to use it is not sufficient, as that is not the whole unit.

This is different from NFW because that is a consquence of taking the test which is based on a singular event; the first unsaved wound.

Here you have n models. If (n-1) models do not elect to use Smite, you cannot use smite. If n elect to use Smite, you can use smite. Except where n=1, a MSS victim is always in the former.

And with NFW the Necron player makes the choice for the entire unit. He can opt to not activate NFWs which forces the GK player to not activate NFW on any other wound.

The timing of the choice (at first initiative swing vs first unsaved wound) is irrelevant. It's the fact that the Necron player can choose to Smite that forces it to be used.

rigeld2 wrote:
And with NFW the Necron player makes the choice for the entire unit. He can opt to not activate NFWs which forces the GK player to not activate NFW on any other wound.

Wrong. There are many instances where Necron player may not make this choice. For example, MSS strikes at I4 and I have halberd striking at I6 and causing unsaved wound. What rule exactly allows Necron player to choose to activate (or not activate) NFW at I6, when he is striking at I4?

Same is true in I4 also. Unsaved wounds at certain Initiative step happen at same time. This means, both GK player and Necron player are allowed to make a choice about the activation of Force Weapon at exactly same time. Page 9 is clear that in this case, current player decides the order of these operations. Of course first choice takes the choice away from the second.

rigeld2 wrote:
The timing of the choice (at first initiative swing vs first unsaved wound) is irrelevant. It's the fact that the Necron player can choose to Smite that forces it to be used.

Timing matters in this case. Unless you wish to argue that it doesn't matter do you choose to resolve MSS before Challenges or vice versa (in the general case).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 yakface wrote:
The reason the page 9 proviso doesn't apply here is because there's no official 'trigger moment' in time where players have to declare what weapons their models are attacking with.

Here you're wrong. The official trigger moment is (page 51) "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows .... While there is a question about "does this apply strict RAW", as it is speaking about multiple weapons, but it is pretty good precedent. Also, it is obvious that there must exist a strictly defined trigger moment for when you choose to use Smite mode. I do agree that the moment might not be specified in the rules though, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exists.
Now, there are two timings it may happen: Start of the fight or when the model comes to strike blows. The decision surely cannot be made after blows are struck, right?

 yakface wrote:
So this is simply a case of whether either player wants to use Smite Mode and if either of them do, then the unit is using it whether the other player disagrees or not.

I personally believe that decision to not do something is still a decision.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again, all models must use it or none can; one model wanting to use it is not sufficient, as that is not the whole unit.

This is different from NFW because that is a consquence of taking the test which is based on a singular event; the first unsaved wound.

Here you have n models. If (n-1) models do not elect to use Smite, you cannot use smite. If n elect to use Smite, you can use smite. Except where n=1, a MSS victim is always in the former.

Well, that settles it, then. Nos has been wrong about every single rules question with regards to the Necron codex so far, so if he says that MSS cannot trigger Smite, then MSS definitely can trigger Smite.

 azazel the cat wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again, all models must use it or none can; one model wanting to use it is not sufficient, as that is not the whole unit.

This is different from NFW because that is a consquence of taking the test which is based on a singular event; the first unsaved wound.

Here you have n models. If (n-1) models do not elect to use Smite, you cannot use smite. If n elect to use Smite, you can use smite. Except where n=1, a MSS victim is always in the former.

Well, that settles it, then. Nos has been wrong about every single rules question with regards to the Necron codex so far, so if he says that MSS cannot trigger Smite, then MSS definitely can trigger Smite.

So because GW ruled opposite what people claimed RAW to be, then they are always wrong regarding the Codex. In that case, nos, start arguing for models with EW to be able to come back from RFP/SA, so GW will rule that it won't work .

Luide wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And with NFW the Necron player makes the choice for the entire unit. He can opt to not activate NFWs which forces the GK player to not activate NFW on any other wound.

Wrong. There are many instances where Necron player may not make this choice. For example, MSS strikes at I4 and I have halberd striking at I6 and causing unsaved wound. What rule exactly allows Necron player to choose to activate (or not activate) NFW at I6, when he is striking at I4?

I misspoke - the Necron player can make the choice for the entire unit. If the MSS goes off on a Halberd then the Necron player can choose.

rigeld2 wrote:
The timing of the choice (at first initiative swing vs first unsaved wound) is irrelevant. It's the fact that the Necron player can choose to Smite that forces it to be used.

Timing matters in this case. Unless you wish to argue that it doesn't matter do you choose to resolve MSS before Challenges or vice versa (in the general case).

What? What do challenges have to do with what I said?

 yakface wrote:
So this is simply a case of whether either player wants to use Smite Mode and if either of them do, then the unit is using it whether the other player disagrees or not.

I personally believe that decision to not do something is still a decision.

Agreed.

rigeld2 wrote:

Luide wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And with NFW the Necron player makes the choice for the entire unit. He can opt to not activate NFWs which forces the GK player to not activate NFW on any other wound.

Wrong. There are many instances where Necron player may not make this choice. For example, MSS strikes at I4 and I have halberd striking at I6 and causing unsaved wound. What rule exactly allows Necron player to choose to activate (or not activate) NFW at I6, when he is striking at I4?

I misspoke - the Necron player can make the choice for the entire unit. If the MSS goes off on a Halberd then the Necron player can choose.

rigeld2 wrote:
The timing of the choice (at first initiative swing vs first unsaved wound) is irrelevant. It's the fact that the Necron player can choose to Smite that forces it to be used.

Timing matters in this case. Unless you wish to argue that it doesn't matter do you choose to resolve MSS before Challenges or vice versa (in the general case).

What? What do challenges have to do with what I said?

My argument is timing matters. When two models (MSS'd and normal) cause unsaved wound at certain Initiative step, those wounds happen at same time.
But because the decision for NFW activation happens at first unsaved wound, we must know was it MSS'd model or normal model who caused that wound. Saying that "Necron player decides always" is wrong, because what rule states that MSS'd model always causes the first unsaved wound? It should be current player decides.

Now, you're correct that in certain circumstances (MSS'd model striking before other models, simultaneous strikes during Necron player turn) Necron player can make the choice for the entire unit.

Edit: Or did I misinterpret that "Timing of the choice" being irrelevant, and you meant that it doesn't really matter is the timing trigger first Initiative Swing or first unsaved wound, procedure follows exactly same steps anyway?

Just stop arguing about this one people. It is too vague for anyone to make a decision. As was stated, staggering Init would technically prevent smite from working since they cant all make that decision. From the way it is worded it seems to be a squad ability but written into the weapon. However, RAW MSS does allow you to take control of the model's decision. Until we get a ruling on this we wont know if controlling the model's decision can force the squad to perform the action.

Rigeld - the necron player makes the choice because the choice occurs from a *singular* event. An unsaved wound. It specifies that a single choice over a single event means all are activated or not.

Smite IS *different* - it specifies the whole unit must use it, or it cannot be used. One model choosing cannot, therefore, activate - as the other models have to agree

However, as GW have given absolutely every rules changing answer for Necrons that they possibly could, including giving them entirely new and better rules for their transport flyer that they undercosted by approx 50 points, I fully expect them to change the rules again for MSS. Because necrons really, reallly need a hand.

Luide wrote:
Edit: Or did I misinterpret that "Timing of the choice" being irrelevant, and you meant that it doesn't really matter is the timing trigger first Initiative Swing or first unsaved wound, procedure follows exactly same steps anyway?

Yes, that's what I meant.

Nos - it doesn't matter at all. There's a singular event in both cases (first unsaved wound, first init step to swing) and a choice is made at that init step. If the DA player chooses to Smite, everyone Smites. If he chooses not to Smite, no one Smites. MSS allows the Necron to make that choice.

Only for that model. Not the whole unit.

There is a group decision that must be made; the MSS model is likely not the whole unit

Not sure how you arent seeing the difference

Halberd MSS model, no other I6 in combat; THIS model scores an unsaved wound and THIS model has the choice..No other model has the choice, just this singular model - so this model has the ability to "turn on" or off all ID for the unit, because that is how NFW weapons work.

Smite, all at I4. ALL models have to make the same choice; one model saying "I want to use Smite" CANNOT activate the Smite mode, it must be the whole unit. The choice must be made at the same time, it does not make it a singular choice like you are claiming.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Smite, all at I4. ALL models have to make the same choice; one model saying "I want to use Smite" CANNOT activate the Smite mode, it must be the whole unit. The choice must be made at the same time, it does not make it a singular choice like you are claiming.

Would you mind citing the Smite rule - or linking to a post that has it?
I'm failing to find it right now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:However, as GW have given absolutely every rules changing answer for Necrons that they possibly could, including giving them entirely new and better rules for their transport flyer that they undercosted by approx 50 points, I fully expect them to change the rules again for MSS. Because necrons really, reallly need a hand.

That's right. It's GW that is wrong.

(except the 50 points bit... you probably are correct there)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Rigeld - the necron player makes the choice because the choice occurs from a *singular* event. An unsaved wound. It specifies that a single choice over a single event means all are activated or not.

Smite IS *different* - it specifies the whole unit must use it, or it cannot be used. One model choosing cannot, therefore, activate - as the other models have to agree

I'll use an analogy: aboard a ship, your and three friends are all shackled to each other at the ankle, and those shackles are attached to a large anchor. Unless you all jump overboard, nobody can individually. Then a Necron comes along, picks up the anchor, and pitches it over the side of the ship. One after another, you and your friends are all dragged into the water.

That's how MSS works with Smite Mode. You can choose to *not* make the choice to use Smite Mode, that's fine. Just the same way that you can choose *not* to jump off the ship. But it's not a situation where you only get one chance if you refuse. You can refuse to use Smite, but if the Necron uses Smite, then the other DWK in the unit must shrug their shoulders and do it too, the same way that if someone tosses that anchor overboard, then you're going over with it, even if you actively said "I will not jump overboard."

I bring this point up because of the wording of Smite: "All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolutions smite setting at the same time".
Now, if this said "no individual model may use Smite Mode unless the entire unit does at the same time", then your interpretation would be correct. But that is not what the rule says. The rule says that all must use Smite Mode, and since the MSS allow the Necron to force the use of Smite Mode, then that means the rest of the DWK unit will also use Smite Mode as a show of solidarity.

rigeld2 wrote:
Would you mind citing the Smite rule - or linking to a post that has it?
I'm failing to find it right now.

"All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolution's smite setting at the same time."

that's on an asterix attached to the "One use only" weapon rule on the secondary weapon profile provided.

Drunkspleen - thanks.

Nos - MSS would force model 1 to use the ability, meaning that the others must use the ability as well. And vice versa.

This would obviously be a time when both players have a decision to make at the same time, meaning the active player wins over the NAP.