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rigeld2 wrote:Drunkspleen - thanks.

Nos - MSS would force model 1 to use the ability, meaning that the others must use the ability as well. And vice versa.

This would obviously be a time when both players have a decision to make at the same time, meaning the active player wins over the NAP.

I think the Necron player always gets the final say, simply because if the DA player chooses not to have the rest of his unit use Smite Mode, but the Necron player uses MSS and thus gets to select the weapon, and chooses to use Smite Mode, then the rest of the unit must comply.

Actively saying "no, I choose not to initiate Smite Mode" does not equate to "nobody gets to initiate Smite Mode".

It actually does - the opportunity to make the decision has passed. Just like if a MSS halberdier was in an assault with some Wraiths and the rest of his unit. He strikes, wounding a friendly and opts not to activate Force weapons. The opportunity to activate them no longer exists.

rigeld2 wrote:It actually does - the opportunity to make the decision has passed. Just like if a MSS halberdier was in an assault with some Wraiths and the rest of his unit. He strikes, wounding a friendly and opts not to activate Force weapons. The opportunity to activate them no longer exists.

But that is an instance triggered by a specific event. There is no specific event that is required in order to trigger Smite Mode. It can be done at any time before you roll for hits. You can activate Smite Mode at any point during the combat prior to swining the mace. This is untrue of Force Weapons, which have a very specific moment that they can be activated. As such, it is not possible to say "nuh-uh, I could've activated Smite Mode but I didn't, so now it can't happen!" The only time it is too late to activate Smite Mode is after blows have been struck.

it works like this:

MSS on DWK, chooses to activate Smite Mode; DA player's choice is moot = Smite Mode activated.
MSS on DWK, chooses not to activate Smite Mode; DA player chooses to activate Smite Mode; renders Necron player's choice moot = Smite Mode activated

Basically, just like with my anchor analogy from a few posts up, the decision to use Smite Mode by either player will override the decision not to in the very same way that tossing the anchor you're tied to overboard will override your decision not to jump ship.

 azazel the cat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It actually does - the opportunity to make the decision has passed. Just like if a MSS halberdier was in an assault with some Wraiths and the rest of his unit. He strikes, wounding a friendly and opts not to activate Force weapons. The opportunity to activate them no longer exists.

But that is an instance triggered by a specific event. There is no specific event that is required in order to trigger Smite Mode. It can be done at any time before you roll for hits. You can activate Smite Mode at any point during the combat prior to swining the mace. This is untrue of Force Weapons, which have a very specific moment that they can be activated. As such, it is not possible to say "nuh-uh, I could've activated Smite Mode but I didn't, so now it can't happen!" The only time it is too late to activate Smite Mode is after blows have been struck.

it works like this:

MSS on DWK, chooses to activate Smite Mode; DA player's choice is moot = Smite Mode activated.
MSS on DWK, chooses not to activate Smite Mode; DA player chooses to activate Smite Mode; renders Necron player's choice moot = Smite Mode activated

Basically, just like with my anchor analogy from a few posts up, the decision to use Smite Mode by either player will override the decision not to in the very same way that tossing the anchor you're tied to overboard will override your decision not to jump ship.

If they are going at the same initiative, sure. If however, they are going at different initiatives (say the entire unit is in base contact with Wraiths (or whatever it is that has the whips) except for the model suffering MSS) then the model(s) at the higher Init (in this case the MSS'd model) is the one(s) to make the choice.

Happyjew wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It actually does - the opportunity to make the decision has passed. Just like if a MSS halberdier was in an assault with some Wraiths and the rest of his unit. He strikes, wounding a friendly and opts not to activate Force weapons. The opportunity to activate them no longer exists.

But that is an instance triggered by a specific event. There is no specific event that is required in order to trigger Smite Mode. It can be done at any time before you roll for hits. You can activate Smite Mode at any point during the combat prior to swining the mace. This is untrue of Force Weapons, which have a very specific moment that they can be activated. As such, it is not possible to say "nuh-uh, I could've activated Smite Mode but I didn't, so now it can't happen!" The only time it is too late to activate Smite Mode is after blows have been struck.

it works like this:

MSS on DWK, chooses to activate Smite Mode; DA player's choice is moot = Smite Mode activated.
MSS on DWK, chooses not to activate Smite Mode; DA player chooses to activate Smite Mode; renders Necron player's choice moot = Smite Mode activated

Basically, just like with my anchor analogy from a few posts up, the decision to use Smite Mode by either player will override the decision not to in the very same way that tossing the anchor you're tied to overboard will override your decision not to jump ship.

If they are going at the same initiative, sure. If however, they are going at different initiatives (say the entire unit is in base contact with Wraiths (or whatever it is that has the whips) except for the model suffering MSS) then the model(s) at the higher Init (in this case the MSS'd model) is the one(s) to make the choice.

A good point. I'd agree.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Che-Vito wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
If they are going at the same initiative, sure. If however, they are going at different initiatives (say the entire unit is in base contact with Wraiths (or whatever it is that has the whips) except for the model suffering MSS) then the model(s) at the higher Init (in this case the MSS'd model) is the one(s) to make the choice.

Overly complex, and incorrect. The wording tells us clearly that the decision about what kind of attacks will be made in close combat (different weapons, abilities, etc.), is made at the start of the Fight subphase. Before anything occurs, the Necron play will be able to dictate if they'd like to use the Smite ability of the weapon.

Necron FAQ wrote:Page 81 – Necron Wargear, Mindshackle Scarabs.
Replace the second paragraph with the following:
Change the first sentence to read “At the start of the Fight subphase,
after charges have been made, but before any blows are
struck, randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base
contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That
model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the
test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the
test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of
attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or
himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to
attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and
benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee
weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses
which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive,
the victim returns to the owning player’s control once all blows
in that round of combat have been struck.”

You even bolded the section that proves you wrong. The MSS Leadership test occurs at the beginning of the fight sub-phase, but the weapon & attack bit takes place when it is the model's turn to attack.

Azazel - yes, actually, GW have been wrong on multiple occasions. Just for two blindingly obvious examples you have SitW and ASF vs ASF or FC + CA. They change their mind on the rules o na regular basis, and regularly change the rules via FAQ - this is indisputable.

So yes, they are "wrong" in so far as by the rules they write their answer to a FAQ is contradictory, and has been more for Necrons (and in necrons favour, consistently) than any other codex I can recall.

Halberd MSS model, no other I6 in combat; THIS model scores an unsaved wound and THIS model has the choice..No other model has the choice, just this singular model - so this model has the ability to "turn on" or off all ID for the unit, because that is how NFW weapons work.

Smite, all at I4. ALL models have to make the same choice; one model saying "I want to use Smite" CANNOT activate the Smite mode, it must be the whole unit. The choice must be made at the same time, it does not make it a singular choice like you are claiming.

how is that any different?. The only difference between Smite and NFW are NFW requires a Warp Charge and a LD test once the model(s) score an unsaved wound, while Smite is just activated before the first swings (if somehow the I of the unit has been staggered). In a general sense, the unit will be at full I most games, and it just comes down to controlling player (assuming its the DA turn and he wants to use Smite, but the Cron player doesnt) or to the Necron if the DA player refuses to use his Smite, but the Necron says "Oh, yes you do!" The anchor analogy above works perfectly for how MSS works. YMDC isn't the place for fluff arguments or opinions, but the way MSS works is exactly how its designed too in the Fluff, which is similar in effect to how Inception works. It's not just some zombification and he does as he is told, the MSS'd model ACTUALLY feels fully in control of himself, but the MSSs in his brain are leading him by implanting thoughts, so when the MSS'd model goes, "GUIZ USE SMITE!!!WE NEEDZ IT!!!" the rest of the unit says OK and up goes Smite and nones the wiser...that is until he starts swinging on them like a psycho.

Although, I personally believe if the MSS'd model is n the low end of the I step as in the model MSS'd is I1 while the rest of the unit is at I4, if the DA player (note that controlling player doesn't matter in the situation) doesn't use Smite for the I4 swings, then the Necron player CANNOT use the unit wide rule on the sole I1 model as he has missed the Timing of the ability. If Smite is to be used at all, it's the choice of the highest I model with Smite to activate it for the rest of the unit. Smite is an ability of the weapon, so there's no reason MSS can't use it just like MSS can force the UNIT of GKs to spend their WC to use the Force SR on one model. However, I do admit this whole thing is vague as a heck, and it needs a FAQ worse than the NFW ruling did, as Smite is not so nearly as clean cut as NFW with all theextra factors that can come in a screw around with the timing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

But to the contrary...GW goes back and forth on what special rules of a weapon you can use. Typical.

Necron FAQ wrote:

Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model with a force
weapon or a weapon which allows the wielder to inflict Instant Death
with a successful Leadership test, can the Necron player force the enemy
model to utilise this ability? (p81)
A: Yes.

Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model whose weapon
gives them additional Attacks in close combat for any reason, are these
attacks added to the number of hits the model causes on their unit (for
example a Daemon Weapon)? (p81)
A: No

MSS uses a "set modifier" style for determining the number of attacks the MSS'd model has IE D3. Set modifiers ALWAYS override any other modifiers, such as Whip Coils reducing a +2I halberd wielding GK to 1. Using this logic, then that ruling doesn't contradict anything ruled thus far, heck i'd argue that it fixed a section of MSS that technically broke the rules for modifiers. Unless that is, you WANT to buff a already awesome power even further? Their like super versions of GK brain mines for 5 more points with the same general access of Models (the unnamed characters typically, though I think MSS appears on maybe one or two named ICs.)

This is getting old every Necron rule like MSS using or forcing the use of force weapons ,no hits form crash and burn and so on has been argued about ,trying to find a way to say they don't work and each time the FAQ has come out to simply state they work as intended and some peoples need to cling to raw keeps them going, trying to shoot down the necron rules .

Move on MSS works its been FAQ'ed, stop expecting an FAQ to answer every minute detail when its clear what the rule is and how it works from the current FAQ.

Time to find RAW issues to argue about with other codex's so it can be FAQ'ed to reflect the obvious intentions aswell

i think the question being asked is valid can MSS force an entire squad to make a decision. Hell up until the FAQ we didn't allow it to activate Libby Force Weapons. Its a valid question. I play necrons, and MSS was still super effective even without the ability to the activate a force weapon or burn a once in a game shot.

The key here seems to be the language in MSS regarding using an ability. It says "...benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapon". The key is to reference this against the verbage for Smite Mode (don't have my codex in front of me). If it is a unit ability, then the Necron player doesn't have permission to control the other models. This could be construed as a penality or requirement for the ability. Conversely, as Yak pointed out, this means that the DWK player loses some control over his unit.

Nos - If it is a group decision to use Smite Mode, wouldn't this mean that the DWK couldn't trigger Smite Mode if the Necron player didn't want it to (assuming MSS were used)?

Yak - To make you arguement valid, it needs to overcome the use of Smite Mode for the other models. What rule grants permission to do so?

Yes, if the Necron player says no, the unit isnt using it at the same time. It is all or nothing.

It reads to me as an all or nothing ability since it is the unit must use it at the same time.

tgf wrote:i think the question being asked is valid can MSS force an entire squad to make a decision. Hell up until the FAQ we didn't allow it to activate Libby Force Weapons. Its a valid question. I play necrons, and MSS was still super effective even without the ability to the activate a force weapon or burn a once in a game shot.

The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:Yak - To make you arguement valid, it needs to overcome the use of Smite Mode for the other models. What rule grants permission to do so?

This is the security blanket that many people cling to, which really does not seem to apply as strictly in 6th as some would like. The rule that grants this permission is the MSS rule. it does not make any decisions or force the rest of the unit to do anything. However, Smite Mode's rule does. So it works like this:

MSS gives permission to activate Smite Mode, and Smite Mode forces the rest of the unit to follow. MSS does not directly force the rest of the unit to do anything.

MSS gives the Necron permission to activate Smite Mode. The rest of the unit then follows suit. Again, please see my anchor analogy from several posts back. The Necron is not forcing the unit to jump overboard; the Necron is merely tossing overboard an anchor to which the unit is tied.

 azazel the cat wrote:
and Smite Mode forces the rest of the unit to follow.

Az,

I do not believe this to be logical process. The units activiates Smite Mode and not the other way around.

The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
and Smite Mode forces the rest of the unit to follow.

Az,

I do not believe this to be logical process. The units activiates Smite Mode and not the other way around.

I believe the rule is phrased as being the model activates it, and all models must do so at the same time.

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
and Smite Mode forces the rest of the unit to follow.

Az,

I do not believe this to be logical process. The units activiates Smite Mode and not the other way around.

In Soviet Russia weapon wields you!

Oh Yakov I miss your terrible humor.

 azazel the cat wrote:

The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
and Smite Mode forces the rest of the unit to follow.

Az,

I do not believe this to be logical process. The units activiates Smite Mode and not the other way around.

I believe the rule is phrased as being the model activates it, and all models must do so at the same time.

I am currently at work so I looked online for the rule. I found this: "All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolution 's
smite setting at the same time"

If this is the language used, then one model desn't activiate it, all models do. I'll double check the exact phasing tonight. Again, I see no trigger in the steps to force the other models in the unit to activiate Smite Mode.

The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
and Smite Mode forces the rest of the unit to follow.

Az,

I do not believe this to be logical process. The units activiates Smite Mode and not the other way around.

I believe the rule is phrased as being the model activates it, and all models must do so at the same time.

I am currently at work so I looked online for the rule. I found this: "All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolution 's
smite setting at the same time"

If this is the language used, then one model desn't activiate it, all models do. I'll double check the exact phasing tonight. Again, I see no trigger in the steps to force the other models in the unit to activiate Smite Mode.

The trigger is that one model activates Smite Mode. Please go back and read my last 3 posts; I believe they're all on this page.

If the rule was phrased as "no model may activate Smite Mode unless the entire unit does so", then you would be correct. But that is not the phrasing, and thus the "there's no permission to make the unit do it" argument fails.

MMS forces the single model to use Smite Mode, and Smite Mode forces the rest of the unit to do the same. MSS does not directly force the entire unit, although that is the ultimate result.

The permission within MSS is perfectly fine, and as such it follows a linear sequence of actions resulting in the entire unit using Smite Mode. Earlier I used the analogy of several men shackled to an anchor, refusing to jump overboard from a ship. If someone throws the anchor overboard, the rest of the men will also go overboard, despite their refusal to jump of their own volition.

I like what a poster said earlier that it would be dumb for either person to use it since its detramental for both sides, maybe more for the necron player. I like the idea of MSS and this is a fight. I have passed quite a few of them rolls for leadership and when i did fail it was 1 hit and failed to wound, or i just make my saves. Its niether game breaking or earth axis tilting. Its random stuff happening with random rolls and I my self love this game for that.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Would you mind citing the Smite rule - or linking to a post that has it?
I'm failing to find it right now.

"All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolution's smite setting at the same time."

that's on an asterix attached to the "One use only" weapon rule on the secondary weapon profile provided.

that opens the question if the DA player doesnt want to do it and the newcron player wants to he cannot. because the other models in the unit are not. He would have permission if there was only 1 member of the squad left and MSS.

at the same time, if the DA player has 5 models, 1 MSS and he wants to use smite, the necron player could say no and then no one can use smite.

YAY! I found an answer. Took me a while.

Granted, this is precedent from a separate, similar situation, but it's the only other example of a two-profile ccw in the game that I know of.

From the Dark Eldar FAQ on Demiklaves:

Page 31 – Incubi, Demiklaives.
Replace this entry with: “Demiklaives are close-combat weapons which can be wielded either separately or clasped together. Decide which way the demiklaives will be used at the beginning of each Fight sub-phase, then use the appropriate profile from those below for the duration of the sub-phase.

Emphasis mine.

Kitzz wrote:
YAY! I found an answer. Took me a while.

Granted, this is precedent from a separate, similar situation, but it's the only other example of a two-profile ccw in the game that I know of.

From the Dark Eldar FAQ on Demiklaves:

Page 31 – Incubi, Demiklaives.
Replace this entry with: “Demiklaives are close-combat weapons which can be wielded either separately or clasped together. Decide which way the demiklaives will be used at the beginning of each Fight sub-phase, then use the appropriate profile from those below for the duration of the sub-phase.

Emphasis mine.

That does nothing to answer the question. For this example to have any weight, the whole squad rather than just the Klaivex would have to have Demiklaives.

It determines when a multiple-profiled weapon chooses when to use a separate profile. Granted, it is only precedent, not an exact FAQ for the question we have been discussing.

There are two questions here. The first is a question about the timing on the activation of the Maces' second profile. The second is about whether the lord with the MSS can activate all of the weapons at the same time.

I believe this answers the first question. The second one is still up in the air to some extent, but now we at least have a timing scheme for how the two rules interact.

I think it does a small part to answer the question. It at least eliminates any initiative-step silliness that might have been the case otherwise.

Using Smite Mode is a weapon ability and it is a choice, so the MSS player is free to choose it, and if he does the Smite rule forces the rest of the unit to use it as well.

Here I think about a lone DLord. If he charges a unit of Dark Knight and challenges the character model, he could force the smite mode. The other Dark Knights would burn their S+6 attack while the DLord would only need to handle one model. A smart DA player would refuse the challenge.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Using Smite Mode is a weapon ability and it is a choice, so the MSS player is free to choose it, and if he does the Smite rule forces the rest of the unit to use it as well.

Here I think about a lone DLord. If he charges a unit of Dark Knight and challenges the character model, he could force the smite mode. The other Dark Knights would burn their S+6 attack while the DLord would only need to handle one model. A smart DA player would refuse the challenge.

The "sergeant" doesn't get a smiting weapon.

Until it gets a FAQ, I think HIWPI is going to side with the sub phase being the "trigger" moment, just like ANY ability that effects the entire unit uses. Then the only hold up, is who is the controlling player and they get to decide the order of events.

As a side note, this is the only time MSS is MORE effective if you don't challenge, as the sergeant doesn't have a Smiting weapon...huh