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You can use the rule all you want, but once you attach an IC you can not assault, as "This ability can not be used if an IC has joined the VV Squad"

HI gives the VV's the ability to assault after a Deep Strike.

Even if you declare HI before an IC is attached, you still can not attach an IC and assault, as trying to do so would be using the ability given by HI while an IC is attached to the squad.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can use the rule all you want, but once you attach an IC you can not assault, as "This ability can not be used if an IC has joined the VV Squad"

HI gives the VV's the ability to assault after a Deep Strike.

Even if you declare HI before an IC is attached, you still can not attach an IC and assault, as trying to do so would be using the ability given by HI while an IC is attached to the squad.

cannot use =/= have used. The unit has used it so can assault. It's like saying models cannot assault after leaving a transport with the assault vehicle rule if vehicle is destroyed before the assault phase ( Or don't count has having grenades since the Frag assault launchers gone)

 Tri wrote:
cannot use =/= have used.

Right the ability can not be used if an IC has joined the Squad.

What does Heroic Intervention let the vanguard Vets do after Deep Strike?

I.E. what does the ability (Heroic Intervention) do?

What is HI used for?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tri wrote:
cannot use =/= have used.

Right the ability can not be used if an IC has joined the Squad.

What does Heroic Intervention let the vanguard Vets do after Deep Strike?

I.E. what does the ability (Heroic Intervention) do?

What is HI used for?

Well once you've used it you may deepstrike and then assault.

So you agree that Heroic Intervention lets a unit of Vanguard Vets, that arrives via Deep Strike, assault in the same turn. (Premise #1)
We agree on premise #1 correct?

The HI rule says "This ability can not be used if an IC has joined the VV Squad" (Premise #2)

We must agree on premise #2 because it is a cut and paste of the rule.

Therefore the ability to assault in the same turn can not be used if an IC has joined the Squad. (This conclusion has the support of Premise #1 and #2).

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you agree that Heroic Intervention lets a unit of Vanguard Vets, that arrives via Deep Strike, assault in the same turn. (Premise #1)
We agree on premise #1 correct?

The HI rule says "This ability can not be used if an IC has joined the VV Squad" (Premise #2)

We must agree on premise #2 because it is a cut and paste of the rule.

Therefore the ability to assault in the same turn can not be used if an IC has joined the Squad. (This conclusion has the support of Premise #1 and #2).

No we don't agree because they have already use HI .... the effects of having used HI are the unit cannot shoot or run but may assault. There is no requirement to use HI again or in fact any opportunity to do so as you are required to use HI before you deep strike.

What about "shoot you later, F***ers!"

That seems like a rule that retroactively prevents things from happening, and has pretty similar wording.

 Tri wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you agree that Heroic Intervention lets a unit of Vanguard Vets, that arrives via Deep Strike, assault in the same turn. (Premise #1)
We agree on premise #1 correct?

The HI rule says "This ability can not be used if an IC has joined the VV Squad" (Premise #2)

We must agree on premise #2 because it is a cut and paste of the rule.

Therefore the ability to assault in the same turn can not be used if an IC has joined the Squad. (This conclusion has the support of Premise #1 and #2).

No we don't agree because they have already use HI .... the effects of having used HI are the unit cannot shoot or run but may assault. There is no requirement to use HI again or in fact any opportunity to do so as you are required to use HI before you deep strike.

So you do not agree on Premise 1?
you do not agree that (Heroic Intervention lets a unit of Vanguard Vets, that arrives via Deep Strike, assault in the same turn.?)

Well I have shown the rules to prove Premise 1, and 2.

Got any rules to the contrary?

Yep when do you use HI? At the start of the turn before deep striking ... when else do you use it? never. Please show when you use HI after deepstriking, and i'm not talking about the effect having used HI grants.

This could apply like Eldards fortune psychic power just for effect revolution. The ability is used at the beginning of the turn but the effects can be used in the assault phase.

Tri, what about my question?

I agree with you so i was using eldar to more easily give a comprehension to people who disagree.

 Tri wrote:
Yep when do you use HI? At the start of the turn before deep striking ... when else do you use it? never. Please show when you use HI after deepstriking, and i'm not talking about the effect having used HI grants.

You declare HI at the start of the turn before deep striking. You use HI to assault into combat after a Deep Strike.

The rule lets you assault, therefore when you declare your assault and make your assault move you are using the rule. Saying you do not use the rule to make an assault is absurd.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tri wrote:
Yep when do you use HI? At the start of the turn before deep striking ... when else do you use it? never. Please show when you use HI after deepstriking, and i'm not talking about the effect having used HI grants.

You declare HI at the start of the turn before deep striking. You use HI to assault into combat after a Deep Strike.

The rule lets you assault, therefore when you declare your assault and make your assault move you are using the rule. Saying you do not use the rule to make an assault is absurd.

When you chose to use HI what happens? The unit may not run or shoot that turn but may assault. Rule has been used and will effect them for that turn. If an IC joins HI may now not be used ... however the unit has already used HI and its effect are in play nothing reverse the fact they may assault and may not shoot or run.

As Slayer222 has shown there are several powers that work across a turn after being activated. If the model that cast said power loose the ability (dies, spawn, other) the powers effects do no end and continue on till they are said to end.

Using the rule means you are performing an assault. If you were not to use HI could you assault? (No) then the assault is a part of using the rule.

The ability is the ability to assault in the turn the unit deep strikes. And it just says cannot be used if an "IC has joined the" VV squad. Makes no distinction about when the IC joined the squad.

Plus I have shown the rules to prove Premise 1, and 2.

Got any rules to the contrary?

If not then you must concede.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Using the rule means you are performing an assault. If you were not to use HI could you assault? (No) then the assault is a part of using the rule.

The ability is the ability to assault in the turn the unit deep strikes. And it just says cannot be used if an "IC has joined the" VV squad. Makes no distinction about when the IC joined the squad.

Plus I have shown the rules to prove Premise 1, and 2.

Got any rules to the contrary?

If not then you must concede.

HI is a rule that may be used, agree?
How do we use it? We must declare we are using HI before rolling the DS scatter dice.
What happens? The unit now may assault but may not assault or shoot that turn.

Done. Rule complete before you've even rolled the scatter dice.

Are there any other rule? Yes
You may not use HI if and IC is joined to the unit.
Have we broken that? No.
Now an IC joins the unit we may no longer use HI.
When do you use HI? before DS.
Is there any way that you could use HI? Not without being put back into reserve.
Can the unit still assault? Yes as the unit use HI. They may not be able to use it again but it is still in effect.

Now can you show where it says they cannot assault any more? All you've shown is they cannot use HI with IC attached .... which they cannot do without re-entering reserve again.

I will persistently ask you to answer my question until you do, Tri.

Kitzz wrote:What about "shoot you later, F***ers!"

That seems like a rule that retroactively prevents things from happening, and has pretty similar wording.

Kitzz wrote:Tri, what about my question?

Kitzz wrote:I will persistently ask you to answer my question until you do, Tri.

A rule that is not part of the BGB without tell me the codex it part of or quoting the rule its self. How do you expect me to answer?

 Tri wrote:
HI is a rule that may be used, agree?

Agreed.

How do we use it? We must declare we are using HI before rolling the DS scatter dice.
What happens? The unit now may assault but may not assault or shoot that turn.

Agreed, but remember that the rule lets you assault. Without the use of the rule then there is no assault.

Done. Rule complete before you've even rolled the scatter dice.

This is where you are incorrect.

This ability refers to the ability to assault from reserve, not just the declaration.

From the BGB:
Models firing out of a vehicle that moved at Combat
Speed count as having moved that turn. Models firing out of a
vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only fire Snap Shots
that turn. They cannot fire if the vehicle moves Flat Out or uses smoke launchers that turn.

This rule retroactively limits your options in the same way.

HI happens before rolling scatter. There is no using it past this point only its effects ... This turn the unit may still assault and may not shoot or run that turn. HI is the cause not the effect.

So you are not using the HI rule to assault on the turn you Deep Strike in?

Then how are you assaulting?

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you are not using the HI rule to assault on the turn you Deep Strike in?

Then how are you assaulting?

When you use HI the unit may assault that turn. Add IC you may not use HI but the effect has already been granted. When a unit DS a restriction is noramlly placed on them that they cannot assault that turn. That is contracted by HI at the time they DS. Adding IC to the unit does not reapply the restriction unless the IC had DS as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kitzz wrote:
From the BGB:
Models firing out of a vehicle that moved at Combat
Speed count as having moved that turn. Models firing out of a
vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only fire Snap Shots
that turn. They cannot fire if the vehicle moves Flat Out or uses smoke launchers that turn.

This rule retroactively limits your options in the same way.

Actually they could fire and then the tank moves flat out (its bad wording on GWs part) but that is something to debate another time.

 Tri wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you are not using the HI rule to assault on the turn you Deep Strike in?

Then how are you assaulting?

When you use HI the unit may assault that turn. Add IC you may not use HI but the effect has already been granted. When a unit DS a restriction is noramlly placed on them that they cannot assault that turn. That is contracted by HI at the time they DS. Adding IC to the unit does not reapply the restriction unless the IC had DS as well.

This is incorrect.

The HI rule is in effect from the time you declare to the time you assault.

Adding an IC disallows the assault part of HI.

It does not matter that you declared HI because once you add the IC you may not use the rest of its rules, as "This ability can not be used if an IC has joined the VV Squad"

The ability is not only declaring the use of HI the ability is also the subsequent assault.

Saying you do not use the rule to make an assault is absurd. Therefore your argument is false.

It comes down to Tri stating you do not need to "use" HI past the declaration, and DR who is saying you need to "use" HI to be able to assault

I am on the latter side; that the only thing that lets you assault has to still be used in the assault phase, otherwise you cannot assault

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It comes down to Tri stating you do not need to "use" HI past the declaration, and DR who is saying you need to "use" HI to be able to assault

I am on the latter side; that the only thing that lets you assault has to still be used in the assault phase, otherwise you cannot assault

Actually my view is that Not being able to assault is decided by using the reserve rule. HI activates at the same time and cancels out the inability to assault (+ negatives) ... the unit no longer has an inability to assault and i can't see anything that would put one back.

The inability to assault is in play during the assault phase.

Look, if you use a psychic power in the movement phase and it allows you to ignore armour, then in the assault phase the opponent try's to stop the witch because he got hit it is already to late. The ability was used in the Movement phase but the effects remain till the assault phase. This is the same with heroic intervention. Used before deep striking, effects remain into the assault/shooting phase. The IC just stops you from its initial use. Therefore if the IC was already on the table and able to assault then if it joins the VV it would be already to late to cancel it. Since the IC is currently not preventing assault itself because it can assault there is no problem.