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Nucflash wrote:


Dont be sad man It's evolution at work. Survival of the fitest, GW is no longer the top shark.

Careful. GW, much like WOTC and D&D is still the top sharks. They might be more then a bit old and wounded and young bucks have nicked and wounded them, but I wouldnt say either arent top of the heaps still. Will they still be in 5 years? Not sure. But they still are now.

carmachu wrote:

Nucflash wrote:


Dont be sad man It's evolution at work. Survival of the fitest, GW is no longer the top shark.

Careful. GW, much like WOTC and D&D is still the top sharks. They might be more then a bit old and wounded and young bucks have nicked and wounded them, but I wouldnt say either arent top of the heaps still. Will they still be in 5 years? Not sure. But they still are now.

I can only speak for the local scene that I play in this is true. But we have wittnessed a drastic decline in WHFB/40k in the last year or so. More and more people are jumping ship.. Many stores have stopped selling their products.. The general trend atleas from were im sitting here in northen Europe is that they will soon get Dethroned, and many of us Welcome the change..

And the top shark remark was more about them No longer having the superior product. WHFB/40k are not really good games if you want to play a fun balanced game. I play games to win, I play chess and poker competativly and I personaly approach Table top gaming the same way. And if you look at GW vs other game companies that make miniatures, they have by far the worst balanced game on the market today.. They still have really good looking miniatures but that is the only thing they have going for them if you ask me. And in the end its about the experince when you play the game. Of all the people I play Table top games with only 3 of us actually like to paint and convert models. The rest want to play the game, and they dont care about painting or lore. They want a competative game, that is well balanced. And sadly even if I personaly like the lore and the miniatures that GW makes, the rules just makes it impossible to play on a serious level..

White wolf that made Vampire the Masqurade and exalted have a much cooler Lore then D&D, but D&D has a much better balance. White Wolf had a much stronger presence in the 90s.. when people dident care about balance as much. And I think they sold alot more products atleast here in sweden then D&D did. But in the long run Balance always WINS out.. That is why Chess has been around for thousands of years, and other games that we have never even heard off have been lost in the pages of time..

Point I'm making the Video game Industry and the general cry for balance during the last decade have changed the market. People dont play games anymore because they are fun or have a cool setting. Todays youth want Balance and competative play.. And if you dont keep up with the times you become extinct..

Nucflash wrote:
I can only speak for the local scene

The problem with these kinds of threads is this is true for everyone. Everyone has their own anecdotal evidence.

Game preferences not only change depending on country, but also depending on state, city and even game store. You might live in America, a notoriously low-population country for Warhammer Fantasy, in a state where it's lower than normal, in a city where hardly anyone sells Warhammer Fantasy, and still find a store that stocks it and the majority of the gamers play it.

Not to mention, people playing in game stores are not the majority of gamers. The majority of gamers are at home, playing with their own groups, and only stop by stoes to buy things. Gaming in stores is a very American-centric attitude.

If it doesn't make money for him there is no arguing that.

But saying he, in good conscience, can't sell to little Timmy is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

A video game console is around $300, add $50 for a game, $50 for another controller and we will assume he already has the hook ups and TV. So little Timmy just had $400 spent to get him into video games (which is just one game he will beat in a week). How many kids have more than 1 console and a ton more games than this?

Anyone here ever put there kid into sports, karate or dance? $75/mo per kid for my girls to go to the cheap dance class in town - 1 class per week. Plus shoes, outfits etc.(you don't even want to know how much dance costumes can cost).

My point is some parents spend an insane amount of money on their kids and I know plenty who are willing to spend the dough. If he can't sell to little Timmy's parents than he can't sell but don't say he can't do it in good conscience. As a retailer that is not his call.

If this guy knew what he was doing he would break down the costs of video gaming like I just did then compare that to tabletop gaming. Then mention how miniatures you are learning many skills such as painting and hand eye coordination. You are getting your kids away from electronics and into a hobby they can enjoy for years. yea that $35 box set is expensive but they can use that kit for years whereas a video game is beat in a week and they will trade it in for pennies on the dollar

This is just an example of a guy who has a personnel beef with GW get in a way of his business sense. And/or a guy who can't sell or run a business trying to blame other people on his failures.

Like I said if it isn't profitable for him there is no arguing that but the second reason is BS. If it isn't profitable then he isn't building his community of gamers and encouraging the hobby correctly. You just can't throw product on the shelf and expect it to sell you actually have to be a salesperson.

There is no issue crying about the price, anymore. It is a given, that you are stepping into the game with at least a $300.00 initial investment.

The background issues for the FLGS is blatently obvious, and has been for years.

If your a top selling store, you can pretty much expect a GW store to open up near, if not next door to you and take that cut from you. More then likely thats the case here, and the guy running that store doesn't know it yet. Owner might, but the store manager needs to do his homework, and start shilling up other games, or he and his store are going to end up a memory.

The circles are coming around again, for gaming. All this talk about "Oh, the Internet stole my business... Oh, I can't compete with the online stores.... wahh wahh..."

I hate to be the one to state the obvious, but if you have a store, your in competition every day to keep the lights on. If you don't want to step up your game and try something new, or even expand to other gameing out there, then thats your tough luck.

I have a local game store that I have to bite my toung at every time I go in there. Whats the cat do?- Sits there, gives you a look, and goes back to his whatever. They took out the tables, they don't stock new, they don't shill the stuff they have, they don't branch out on anything. WOn't even get into how they don't want to keep things in stock, and think that last years figures are going to sell at this years prices.

And as to that Magic comment... Magic doesn't sell if there is no playing. Just saying.

That stuff about not being able to sell in good conscious sounds like B.S. Little Timmy Knows exactly what he's getting into. The point is to get him in and LIKE it.

GW can stuff it, because they don't want it bad enough. If you want to know the truth, Its the early 80's all over again, and the gaming selections and choices are countless. You can pick up ANYTHING, and whats even more, there are more coming out all the time. If I was running a Gamestore, You'd bet your figures that I'd be all up on that, trying to get a local scene up, learning whats out there, talking to the crowds, polling the kid walking in, showing the new stuff, looking into demo's and reps for each and any game I could get, and then I'd go one better, and actually start up tournies of whatever at least once or twice a month, depending on the game.

This deal about a store being a one horse town might work for someone as clueless as GW, but the reality is that there is game upon game out there that need love and attention.

"Hey, have you seen this game?" "These guys are pretty neat, You want to try a demo game and check it out?" " How many of you guys know what's going on with this game".....
etc, etc, etc.....

This stuff about old store guy sitting around reading and weeping about how tough it is is B.S. too. You want to run a game store, you need to step up and earn it.

You can't play games on Internet game stores, you can't suppliment your income without customers.

From where I sit? I don't have a real decent game store in walking distance, but if I did, I'd be running my games and getting my customers to run them around my store, with a discount for new players/ first time purchases, and initial starters sets. ( ANY GAME) You get lists of players, have link up sheets, give out references to other players.

Little Timmy wants to game? He only needs to come down to the store, show up on Saturday, and get in on a game of this or that. We have some guys in the group that have some starters or extra stuff, maybe we can get together for a swap, with them?

Thing of it is- Gaming is a social sport. You can't get in on it without more then one player, and your not getting those players without stepping up to start the process.

Nucflash wrote:

I can only speak for the local scene that I play in this is true. But we have wittnessed a drastic decline in WHFB/40k in the last year or so. More and more people are jumping ship.. Many stores have stopped selling their products.. The general trend atleas from were im sitting here in northen Europe is that they will soon get Dethroned, and many of us Welcome the change..

And the top shark remark was more about them No longer having the superior product. .

Fair enough. You just need to be careful. While around here GW and WOTC D&D are on the decline, they are still the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Their models, as long as you stay away from finecast.

Does GW require you to buy a certain amount on their releases?
Because i just got back from my FLGS and the new deathwing stuff was half-off.

GWs business model means they won't care if stores that cater to gamers top selling their products GWs current business strategy is based around tricking mothers into buying for their kids, and convincing said kid to buy as long as possible before he gets disgusted with the state of the hobby and quits. Long term customers and older veterans concerned with the rule set are annoyances to be driven away.

 Harriticus wrote:
GWs business model means they won't care if stores that cater to gamers top selling their products GWs current business strategy is based around tricking mothers into buying for their kids, and convincing said kid to buy as long as possible before he gets disgusted with the state of the hobby and quits. Long term customers and older veterans concerned with the rule set are annoyances to be driven away.

I don't know where you live but around here it's unlikely most parents will spend £50 on a toy for their kid. Veterans are the core of GW's business. Why else would GW continually release new products for all their armies? If a new wave comes out for your army, most vets will get a couple of boxes.

I'm also in DFW.

Somehow I missed the Lonestar discount :(; but I have watched several other independent comic stores stop selling GW stuff in the past year in the area. Picked up a baneblade at one for a song a month ago.

I usually go to Texas Toy Soldier, Comic Asylum or the Hobby Town in Plano depending on where I'm physically at when I decide to pick something up. Hobby Town in Plano scaled back their 40k stuff quite a bit a few months ago, they have regular discounts and you earn more discounts through purchasing. The HT in Dallas looks to have completely dropped GW products. TTS's prices are fantastic; but I don't remember about Comic Asylum.

There are 2 GW stores somewhat in the area: Frisco and Grapevine. I personally am not a fan of Grapevine, but they always seem to have people milling about. The Frisco store is nice and the manager is very personable; all my special orders go through him.

I think the key to making any money in war gaming is to provide plenty of table space and host regular events; at least one a month maybe 2. Just carrying the product isn't enough. TTS and Comic Asylum both have regular 40k events and seem to be doing just fine. Whereas the places I've seen drop 40k entirely have between zero and 1 tables and certainly don't have any type of events.


And for the record regarding console games. I bought one for my kids this Christmas (Wii U). Between controllers, a couple games and the console itself I spent over $600US. So, that $300 price tag isn't even getting started and quite frankly, it's an entirely different experience that just doesn't really compare to playing with toy soldiers.

 Grot 6 wrote:

If your a top selling store, you can pretty much expect a GW store to open up near, if not next door to you and take that cut from you.

Yeah, people say this a lot, but has anyone ever managed to back it up? Because people love repeating it, and blaming GW for FLGS woes, despite how often a FLGS manages to get into trouble all on its own. I remember somebody bitching about all the GW stores in the DC Baltimore region, and how was killing local shops, actually citing a specific FLGS that they'd loved and had closed down after GW opened a store next to it, only for another Baltimore native to point out that that store had closed two years before the GW went in.

clively wrote:
I'm also in DFW.

Somehow I missed the Lonestar discount :(; but I have watched several other independent comic stores stop selling GW stuff in the past year in the area. Picked up a baneblade at one for a song a month ago.

I usually go to Texas Toy Soldier, Comic Asylum or the Hobby Town in Plano depending on where I'm physically at when I decide to pick something up. Hobby Town in Plano scaled back their 40k stuff quite a bit a few months ago, they have regular discounts and you earn more discounts through purchasing. The HT in Dallas looks to have completely dropped GW products. TTS's prices are fantastic; but I don't remember about Comic Asylum.

There are 2 GW stores somewhat in the area: Frisco and Grapevine. I personally am not a fan of Grapevine, but they always seem to have people milling about. The Frisco store is nice and the manager is very personable; all my special orders go through him.

I think the key to making any money in war gaming is to provide plenty of table space and host regular events; at least one a month maybe 2. Just carrying the product isn't enough. TTS and Comic Asylum both have regular 40k events and seem to be doing just fine. Whereas the places I've seen drop 40k entirely have between zero and 1 tables and certainly don't have any type of events.


And for the record regarding console games. I bought one for my kids this Christmas (Wii U). Between controllers, a couple games and the console itself I spent over $600US. So, that $300 price tag isn't even getting started and quite frankly, it's an entirely different experience that just doesn't really compare to playing with toy soldiers.

HobbyTown Dallas (the one on 75 and Walnut Hill) still has GW and gets new releases. They don't backfill any stock (they have like 2 total boxes of Orks), and there's no discount/sales. The GW stock they have is relegated to one corner of the store (to the right of the entrance) and they ripped out their game room in preference to an Airsoft sales counter. I used to game there regularly before I took a gaming hiatus. I was deeply disappointed at their decisions and refuse to purchase their full priced GW stuff, especially with TTS and Gunslinger in the area.

Maybe this is the time I should jump and say I will gladly ship GW product to anybody at a discount I carry the entire range, so no fear of it being out of stock usually. Seems like Dallas peeps are having trouble getting it /threadjack

 CIsaac wrote:


HobbyTown Dallas (the one on 75 and Walnut Hill) still has GW and gets new releases. They don't backfill any stock (they have like 2 total boxes of Orks), and there's no discount/sales. The GW stock they have is relegated to one corner of the store (to the right of the entrance) and they ripped out their game room in preference to an Airsoft sales counter. I used to game there regularly before I took a gaming hiatus. I was deeply disappointed at their decisions and refuse to purchase their full priced GW stuff, especially with TTS and Gunslinger in the area.

Must have missed that section as it used to be to the left when you walked in. Never been to Gunslinger, I'll have to drop by for a look around.

<standing on soap box>

SGT. Horse has the most successful table top gaming store in the Atlanta metro area. I wish I lived closer to it. The man knows his calling, and it's to run a game store. The issue I find with a lot of FLGS is that the proprietor usually has poor business acumen, and no place in business and entrepreneurship. Horse is not that kinda guy- in short he know's what he's talking about. Y'all could stand to listen to what he says.

GW products, and anything else for that matter, need more than for someone to put them on a shelf. Horse is very engaging about the product, and is up front to new customers about the products he sells. I've lost track of other store owners that have nothing good to say about GW, and wonder why it doesn't sell. Ever heard a Chevy dealer speak bad of Chevys? It makes no sense, but like I said the FLGS market has no shortage of bad store owners. I've read enough about this "Lone Star" store to see what kinda of operation they run.

<off of soap box>

MtG/Yu Gi Oh keeps San Antonio stores afloat.

One store removed all wargaming tables about a year ago and is currently selling off all GW stock at 70% retail if memory serves.

 Amaya wrote:
MtG/Yu Gi Oh keeps San Antonio stores afloat.

One store removed all wargaming tables about a year ago and is currently selling off all GW stock at 70% retail if memory serves.

The LFGS survival is based on what sells in their sphere of influence whether it is models or CCG's, comics or a combination of things.

CCG's and board games generally seem to sell better at this moment than models.

I used to be a store manager for Lone Star and they're a POS company. They abuse their employees, and I have plenty of stories I won't share for now to be tasteful, but will if I have to. Don't buy anything from them, ever. Support the non-chain stores (my personal fav is A51 in Grapevine, and no, I don't work there ) .

 CIsaac wrote:
The Lone Star stores are also small and don't really have space to support gaming within them, having moved out of larger venues into progressively smaller spaces (and closed down their store nearest downtown Dallas). It's hard to run a tourney with only 2 tables, and I haven't seen the local Outrider scheduling anything in them for a while. Their Yugioh and Magic tournies will usually net a couple temporary tables and some of the shelving pushed to the side, but you literally can't go into the store as a regular customer when there is a tourney running.

In short, I think there are instances where stores are going to make decisions based on their own needs. I don't think Lone Star was set up to be a good retailer for GW and they definitely weren't make an effort to compete with online retailers. So they got out. It's not the first time they have.

Elaine Powell, the head buyer, HATES games. On top of that, everything they buy they mark up 50% by default regardless of what nearby stores are selling things for so you'll often end up with ridiculous pricing with the managers left to make "fun events" while having no play space for promotion. They won't allow you to readjust to make more play space and think tournaments "limit room for other shoppers" even though they're a more regular income than anything else besides the new comic buyers on Wednesday. Lone Star hates gamers, period.

Vex wrote:
This is the second time that Lone Star has stopped selling GW. The first time was due to Games Workshop product being stolen quite often (mostly the staff at the time) and the chain being HORRIBLY behind in their bills. Lone Star got angry when GW stopped sending new product to them....which often happens when you are six months behind on your bills. I heard through the grapevine (or geekvine) that this time is similar. Lone Star is down to 5 stores, most the stores moving into smaller and smaller spaces over the years, with none actually in the city of Dallas. Shame really. Lone Star has a sad history of making questionable business decisions, like when they got rid of most of their science fiction novels.

I got to help box those up! And explain to our regulars who bought them why we didn't have them anymore. For the record, they held a vote to see if they should get GW back and I said no. Look who was right, fethers.

Lone Star is NOT a FLGS, it's a "pretend smiles by miserable, micro-managed employees who are forced to try to cross sell people stuff they don't want which never works so they get yelled at til upper management has the great idea to mark everything ridiculously low rather than just a little bit lower to get rid of it in one swoop hell hole." Not that I'm bitter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, the reason A51 stopped getting prize (or ANY) support for their GW games when they were carrying the full line was because Lone Star's management made up lies about the shop and how rude they were to the rep. They're atrocious, nasty people.

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
I used to be a store manager for Lone Star and they're a POS company. They abuse their employees, and I have plenty of stories I won't share for now to be tasteful, but will if I have to. Don't buy anything from them, ever. Support the non-chain stores (my personal fav is A51 in Grapevine, and no, I don't work there ) . [snip] They're atrocious, nasty people.

Yup. As a consumer, this is my conclusion. I won't buy from them, and I'm stuck buying advanced modelling supplies from HobbyTown, but refuse to spend money on GW products there (and only buy non-GW branded stuff like Xactos) to illustrate points. I've never had such terrible experiences as a customer in other FLGS. Lone Star has permanently lost my business. I will never, ever go back there or use their website (www.mycomicshop.com -- just as bad as the stores). I went out with one of the old managers of the Irving location for a while and I got to hear a lot of what went on second hand.

I REALLY wish Texas Game Co. in Allen hadn't closed doors. I loved Mr. Woods and that store. No other place could I go from playing AH's Diplomacy to WH40K to D&D sometimes in the same day. He gave away gifts to all his biggest customers every year and made you feel welcome. But alas, if wishes were fishes...

If you're in the eastern part of the D/FW Texas Metroplex, I suggest Gunslinger Games (they just started stocking GW in January, friendly, LOTS of tables, lets you order takeout in the store ) or Texas Toy Soldier (much bigger selection, older crowd, more central location, wider variety of games -- even Dreadball). Both are good and have very nice employees.

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
I used to be a store manager for Lone Star and they're a POS company. They abuse their employees, and I have plenty of stories I won't share for now to be tasteful, but will if I have to. Don't buy anything from them, ever. Support the non-chain stores (my personal fav is A51 in Grapevine, and no, I don't work there ) .

 CIsaac wrote:
The Lone Star stores are also small and don't really have space to support gaming within them, having moved out of larger venues into progressively smaller spaces (and closed down their store nearest downtown Dallas). It's hard to run a tourney with only 2 tables, and I haven't seen the local Outrider scheduling anything in them for a while. Their Yugioh and Magic tournies will usually net a couple temporary tables and some of the shelving pushed to the side, but you literally can't go into the store as a regular customer when there is a tourney running.

In short, I think there are instances where stores are going to make decisions based on their own needs. I don't think Lone Star was set up to be a good retailer for GW and they definitely weren't make an effort to compete with online retailers. So they got out. It's not the first time they have.

Elaine Powell, the head buyer, HATES games. On top of that, everything they buy they mark up 50% by default regardless of what nearby stores are selling things for so you'll often end up with ridiculous pricing with the managers left to make "fun events" while having no play space for promotion. They won't allow you to readjust to make more play space and think tournaments "limit room for other shoppers" even though they're a more regular income than anything else besides the new comic buyers on Wednesday. Lone Star hates gamers, period.

Vex wrote:
This is the second time that Lone Star has stopped selling GW. The first time was due to Games Workshop product being stolen quite often (mostly the staff at the time) and the chain being HORRIBLY behind in their bills. Lone Star got angry when GW stopped sending new product to them....which often happens when you are six months behind on your bills. I heard through the grapevine (or geekvine) that this time is similar. Lone Star is down to 5 stores, most the stores moving into smaller and smaller spaces over the years, with none actually in the city of Dallas. Shame really. Lone Star has a sad history of making questionable business decisions, like when they got rid of most of their science fiction novels.

I got to help box those up! And explain to our regulars who bought them why we didn't have them anymore. For the record, they held a vote to see if they should get GW back and I said no. Look who was right, fethers.

Lone Star is NOT a FLGS, it's a "pretend smiles by miserable, micro-managed employees who are forced to try to cross sell people stuff they don't want which never works so they get yelled at til upper management has the great idea to mark everything ridiculously low rather than just a little bit lower to get rid of it in one swoop hell hole." Not that I'm bitter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, the reason A51 stopped getting prize (or ANY) support for their GW games when they were carrying the full line was because Lone Star's management made up lies about the shop and how rude they were to the rep. They're atrocious, nasty people.

BOOM Roasted.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
MtG/Yu Gi Oh keeps San Antonio stores afloat.

One store removed all wargaming tables about a year ago and is currently selling off all GW stock at 70% retail if memory serves.

The LFGS survival is based on what sells in their sphere of influence whether it is models or CCG's, comics or a combination of things.

CCG's and board games generally seem to sell better at this moment than models.

Right... CCG aren't this automatic cash cow for gaming stores people make it out to be. If anything I've heard quite the opposite from store owners that CCG business can be quite fickle, where miniatures are stable.

 CIsaac wrote:

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
I used to be a store manager for Lone Star and they're a POS company. They abuse their employees, and I have plenty of stories I won't share for now to be tasteful, but will if I have to. Don't buy anything from them, ever. Support the non-chain stores (my personal fav is A51 in Grapevine, and no, I don't work there ) . [snip] They're atrocious, nasty people.

Yup. As a consumer, this is my conclusion. I won't buy from them, and I'm stuck buying advanced modelling supplies from HobbyTown, but refuse to spend money on GW products there (and only buy non-GW branded stuff like Xactos) to illustrate points. I've never had such terrible experiences as a customer in other FLGS. Lone Star has permanently lost my business. I will never, ever go back there or use their website (www.mycomicshop.com -- just as bad as the stores). I went out with one of the old managers of the Irving location for a while and I got to hear a lot of what went on second hand.

I REALLY wish Texas Game Co. in Allen hadn't closed doors. I loved Mr. Woods and that store. No other place could I go from playing AH's Diplomacy to WH40K to D&D sometimes in the same day. He gave away gifts to all his biggest customers every year and made you feel welcome. But alas, if wishes were fishes...

If you're in the eastern part of the D/FW Texas Metroplex, I suggest Gunslinger Games (they just started stocking GW in January, friendly, LOTS of tables, lets you order takeout in the store ) or Texas Toy Soldier (much bigger selection, older crowd, more central location, wider variety of games -- even Dreadball). Both are good and have very nice employees.

Mr Woods store in Allen was the store that got me into wargaming over 20 years ago. I miss that store greatly, my friends all worked there, and I went to HS with his daughter. That store set the bar exceptionally high and I haven't found it's match yet.