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 DeathReaper wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:

This was a very unhelpful post, and leaves me convinced of my own assertion, and unconvinced of yours. Simply saying, "incorrect" doesn't make me incorrect. You need to give some proof, some reasoning, some logic. (Also, I used neither the word "can't" nor "must." If you insist on using your own terms, at least equate them with my chosen vocabulary.

I gave reasoning, but I will spell it out for you:

Thank you. Spelling things out for poor little stupid-heads like me is always the best way to go.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Pile in move say that you can only make pile in moves whilst locked (You can't move)
Assault moves say you must move subsequent chargers (Must move)
Therefore: Can't Trumps Must in a permissive ruleset.

Let me try an example again: Units of infantry that have entered into play (either on the board or in a transport) can't go back into reserve (since it's a permissive ruleset, and there's no rule allowing it, they cannot). Necron infantry whose flying transport is destroyed must go back into reserve.
In this case, Must trumps Can't. Since it can be written either way, it doesn't mean much. But if we insist on using the phrase (in either direction), then, since it's a permissive ruleset, Can trumps Can't. (Can over Can't also allows for codices to override the BRB).

Again, "Locked in combat" is written under the Fight sub-phase, but this does not mean it occurs only in the Fight sub-phase. There are caveats in the Move and Shoot Phase, and the Charge sub-phase that indicate units can be locked in combat during all these times. As Chrysis said above, "locked in combat" is a

persistent state.

So we now have to look at the definition of "locked in combat": "units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." This is at any time in the game, since we have seen that units can be locked during any phase. (They are locked and thus cannot move; they are locked and cannot shoot; they are locked and cannot charge.)
A unit that is charging gets a special charge move. These models are called "chargers" (p21). They may move as much/little of their rolled charge distance to get as many models as possible in base contact with the enemy. The enemy unit, since it did not charge, does not get this special move. It it locked in combat as soon as base contact is established.

Friendly unit Can move its full charge distance. (Can)
Units in base contact are locked in combat and Can't move except Pile In. (Can't)
Can trumps Can't.

Enemy unit can be locked in combat.
Enemy unit can't OW if locked in combat.
Can holds hand with Can't.

(Also Stormbreed, thanks for your words of caution and insight.)

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Let me try an example again: Units of infantry that have entered into play (either on the board or in a transport) can't go back into reserve (since it's a permissive ruleset, and there's no rule allowing it, they cannot). Necron infantry whose flying transport is destroyed must go back into reserve.

Which means we have a conflict. And in a conflict, codex wins out.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Let me try an example again: Units of infantry that have entered into play (either on the board or in a transport) can't go back into reserve (since it's a permissive ruleset, and there's no rule allowing it, they cannot). Necron infantry whose flying transport is destroyed must go back into reserve.
In this case, Must trumps Can't.

A lack of permission doesn't equate to a restriction, if the rules tell you that the necrons go back into reserves, they go back into reserves, because there's nothing telling you it can't happen, there's simply no allowance for it in the normal course of play.

So your example doesn't match up with the Assault Situation, where you have a rule directly stating the models can't move (except to pile in).

Again, "Locked in combat" is written under the Fight sub-phase, but this does not mean it occurs only in the Fight sub-phase. There are caveats in the Move and Shoot Phase, and the Charge sub-phase that indicate units can be locked in combat during all these times.

This reasoning doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, you can still be locked in other phases even if you can only become locked during the Fight Sub-phase, such a state can carry on beyond the sole phase in which it can be initiated.

Can trumps Can't.

This isn't a universal truth, for Can to trump Can't it has to specifically override the restriction, for example if a unit Deep Strikes in a Land Raider (Assault Vehicle) and disembarks, it cannot proceed to launch an assault, it has a special rule saying it CAN assault after disembarking, but it has an entirely separate restriction saying it CAN'T assault on the turn it deep strikes.

Which is basically why your whole reasoning is wrong.

Friendly unit Can move its full charge distance. (Can)
Units in base contact are locked in combat and Can't move except Pile In. (Can't)

This permission doesn't specifically override the restriction, permission to make a charge move doesn't matter when the model isn't allowed to make any move other than a pile it, it would need permission that directly overrides the locked restriction.

Elric - DR is saying the restriction begins in the fight subphase, because otherwuse you are told you cannot make ANY move except to pile in, meaning only one model ever makes base. It isnt that the restriction ONL:Y exists in that subphase, but that is the point from which you count it.

DRs summation of the two sides is correct, your reasoning is simply incorrect on a number of basic points, which Drunkspleen has pointed out succintly above.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

This isn't a universal truth, for Can to trump Can't it has to specifically override the restriction

Let me remind you of what I said earlier:

Elric Greywolf wrote:
In this case, Must trumps Can't. Since it can be written either way, it doesn't mean much. But if we insist on using the phrase....

blah blah blah. My point was that saying "X always trumps Y" is silly. Of COURSE it's never universal. Mr Reaper was the one insisting earlier that it was. I'm pleased to stop insisting on universals, and instead look at particulars.

So on to the particular.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

Friendly unit Can move its full charge distance. (Can)
Units in base contact are locked in combat and Can't move except Pile In. (Can't)

This permission doesn't specifically override the restriction, permission to make a charge move doesn't matter when the model isn't allowed to make any move other than a pile it, it would need permission that directly overrides the locked restriction.

The unit does have specific permission to move all its models, even though it is in base contact. BRB p21: "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged." At this point, one friendly model is in base contact with 1+ enemy model(s). "After moving the first model [which is now in base contact], you can move the others," following the bullet-point restrictions. Explicit permission is given to move the rest of the unit, even though they are in base contact and thus locked in combat.
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat" (p23). Even though the charging model is in base contact, the unit may still move its charge distance, because it is given explicit permission to do so (see quotations). Charging is a special circumstance.
However, the enemy unit is not charging, and it must abide by the "locked in combat" definition. Since the enemy unit is in base contact, it is locked. The charging unit, even though it is locked, has special dispensation--because it is Charging--to move specially in this single instance.

"Locked in combat" is clearly defined as base contact. Charging models have explicit permission to move their full charge distance, despite being in base contact (read the above paragraph again). Enemy unit has explicit permission to not shoot or move when in base contact with the enemy.

Once you are charged, if you don't OW, you can't pick another target. Units in base contact with the enemy can't shoot.

Understanding it in this manner means your unit can charge like the rules say; it also means people can't fire when in base contact, just like the rules say.

Sooooooo.....
This argument is considered valid by the community?
It looks like DS, DR, and Nos were all incorrect, and my reasoning on a number of basic points was correct after all.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Sooooooo.....
This argument is considered valid by the community?
It looks like DS, DR, and Nos were all incorrect, and my reasoning on a number of basic points was correct after all.

No, that's not a reasonable assumption.
This argument has been hashed out enough that most of us are tired of participating in it. It really needs an FAQ.

Sorry, not sure abot your last post.

"Specific" obviously doesnt mean the same thing to you as it does to us. Specific would be "move other assaulting models even though they are locked in combat and could not normally make a non-pile in move"

It doesnt actually say that, so you do not have specific permission.

Again: the specific instance it states you are locked in combat is the fight sub phase. Please explain why you are locked prior to that phase.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Please explain why you are locked prior to that phase.

Because, in the definition of being "locked," there is no time limit/specified time frame when it occurs. The only definition of being "locked" is base contact. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat" (p23). It does not say, "at the model's Initiative step," or "during the Fight sub-phase." It simply says, "If your models touch bases, they're locked."

**Please explain why you would not be locked in combat while in base contact.

Specific would be "move other assaulting models even though they are locked in combat and could not normally make a non-pile in move"

It does say exactly this. I'll give some commentary in brackets, the text in quotation marks is verbatim from the BRB.
BRB p21: "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged." [At this point, one friendly model is in base contact with 1+ enemy model(s); both units are now locked in combat.] "After moving the first model [which is now in base contact], you can move the others"[ following the bullet-point restrictions].
Explicit permission is given to move the rest of the friendly unit, even though one friendly model is in base contact and thus both units are locked in combat.

So the steps for Charging in the BRB:
1. Move first Charger to be in base contact. Your units are now locked in combat, according to the definition of "locked in combat."
2. Move other chargers into base, or as close as possible.
This clearly fulfills your statement. The BRB tells me to, using your words "move other assaulting models even though [the unit is] locked in combat and could not normally make a non-pile in move." Charging grants you a special Charge move; this Charge move explicitly takes into account being in base contact, and overrides the restrictions on locked in combat.

The rules on page 21 do not specify they can move whilst locked in combat.

There is no specific permission to over-ride the locked condition.

Well, there is - it is the heading "Fight Sub Phase". What gives youpermission to resolve that before you reach this sub phase? Page and paragraph

You are still mising the point of what specific or explicit means.

Nowhere in anything you have cited, anywhere, does it say "you may resolve your charge move despite only being allowed to make a pile in move". That is the difference between your claim, and actual reality.

Again: please try to understand the difference between explicit and implied. At best you have something implied, I am asking for something explicit

The definition of "locked in combat" does not include any reference to the Fight sub-phase. Its listing under the Fight section implies that it takes place there, but it does not specifically, explicitly state that it begins there. If it did, it would say something like, "Being locked in combat starts at the Fight sub-phase." But it does not say this. The only condition of being locked is base contact. It's a simple if/then statement: if in base contact, then locked in combat. That's it. Nothing else. Anything else is an implication.

1. "Locked in combat" is defined as being in base contact with an enemy model.
2. Charging into combat puts you in base contact with the enemy.
3. Both units are locked in combat.
4. p21 gives you explicit permission to move the rest of your models the rolled Charge distance, even though the unit is already in base contact. (Refer to #1.)
5. This is making a non-pile in move while in base contact with the enemy. (Refer to #1.)
6. Chargers can move while locked in combat; despite being locked in combat, they are told they can complete their charge move.

Again, please explain why you would not be locked in combat while in base contact with the enemy. Use the definition of "locked in combat" in your explanation: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat" (p23).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will also say that Drunk Mat Ward is the only one who has directly responded to my comments in an ordered, straightforward fashion. The length of his post was most satisfactory. Giving two sentences in return does not do much to debunk my argument. A point-by-point response would be helpful, I think.

Please, explain why you are allowed to continue moving your models when making an assault move, when you are EXPLICITLY told you may ONLY make pile in moves.

You have yet to actually answeer this, just hand wave it away.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Please, explain why you are allowed to continue moving your models when making an assault move, when you are EXPLICITLY told you may ONLY make pile in moves.

You have yet to actually answeer this, just hand wave it away.

I don't know what "answeer" means, but I'll try to do as you ask.

This is the third time I've posted this, but since you seem to not have read my posts (tldr?) I'll post it again.

BRB p21: "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged."
[At this point, one friendly model is in base contact with 1+ enemy model(s); both units are now locked in combat.]
"After moving the first model [which is now in base contact], you can move the others"[ following the bullet-point restrictions].

Explicit permission is given to move the rest of the friendly unit, even though one friendly model is in base contact and thus both units are locked in combat.


Please explain why you would not be locked in combat while in base contact with the enemy. Use the definition of "locked in combat" in your explanation: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat" (p23).

Yeah when I was handed a link to an old argument with the ame question, I said thank you, and stepped out of own discussion.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Please, explain why you are allowed to continue moving your models when making an assault move, when you are EXPLICITLY told you may ONLY make pile in moves.

You have yet to actually answeer this, just hand wave it away.

I don't know what "answeer" means, but I'll try to do as you ask.

This is the third time I've posted this, but since you seem to not have read my posts (tldr?) I'll post it again.

BRB p21: "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged."
[At this point, one friendly model is in base contact with 1+ enemy model(s); both units are now locked in combat.]
"After moving the first model [which is now in base contact], you can move the others"[ following the bullet-point restrictions].

Explicit permission is given to move the rest of the friendly unit, even though one friendly model is in base contact and thus both units are locked in combat.


Please explain why you would not be locked in combat while in base contact with the enemy. Use the definition of "locked in combat" in your explanation: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat" (p23).

And where in your argument does it say that you can move even if locked in combat?

Because you would need specific permission to trump the 'can only make pile in moves' clause about locked, which you did not show to be true.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And where in your argument does it say that you can move even if locked in combat?

Because you would need specific permission to trump the 'can only make pile in moves' clause about locked, which you did not show to be true.

This is, at best, an argument based on a negative implication. In either case, you have to make an assumption:

Either:
1) As you are obviously intended to be able to complete a charge move with the whole unit, "locked" doesn't begin until sometime later; or
2) As you are obviously intended to be able to complete a charge move with the whole unit, the "can only make pile in moves" clause is overridden by the rules for making a charge.

The only other option is:
3) You can never actually charge more than 2", as only the first model gets to move, and he (probably) can't charge out of coherency.

Personally, I read (and play) it as #2. Given the sequential nature of the charge sub-phase, it seems to fit better, and play more tactically.

That said, there is a LOT of condescending tone in this thread. Knock it off. Or you're going to lose the ability to participate in any discussions..

I see it as #1 because the Fight Sub-Phase tells you that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase.

Bottom line is discuss it with your group before hand and come to an agreement about it.

 Janthkin wrote:

2) As you are obviously intended to be able to complete a charge move with the whole unit, the "can only make pile in moves" clause is overridden by the rules for making a charge.
Personally, I read (and play) it as #2. Given the sequential nature of the charge sub-phase, it seems to fit better, and play more tactically.

This is how I also play. I think the tactical thinking it encourages in the charging player adds another level to the whole OW section. And in a wargame, more tactics = more goodness.



Also, I apologise (to the participants in the thread) for any condescension in my posts. Sometimes I get carried away by the discussion and say rude things. I will be more polite in the future.