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Ok so here is the situation

2 squads of Black Knights next to each other

1 squad has one bike in it, the other has 3.

I have a sqaud of Ymgarls surrounded the unit of 3, and squad of Gants lined up infront of both.

I declare the Gants will make a multi assualt, at the 1 model unit as primary, as this was the unit they shot at, and then at the 3.

He chooses to overwatch with the single model, and not the 3 man unit, I manage to get in to base to base with both units with my Gants.

I then charge with my Ymgarls at the unit of 3..

Can that unit Overwatch the Ymgarls or not?

A unit locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. Currently the gants would lock both units at the end of their charge move, so no Overwatch would be allowed.

No he cannot, you cannot over watch when you have a unit in base contact with you.

Edit: ninja'd what ^ said

short answer: Maybe

The rules say a unit is locked in combat when it's models are in base to base with the enemy, which would mean once you have gotten in base to base with the 3 man squad, they aren't eligible to overwatch.

The counter point people bring up to this is that, a locked unit can't move except to make pile in moves, which means if you become locked as soon as you get base to base contact, only one model in an assaulting unit can actually make an assault move before all the others become locked and ineligible to move.

So you have to apply one of these rules other than by RAW, otherwise the game breaks, it's up to you which you think should handle differently.

edit: suggested alternatives are generally you don't become locked till the fight sub phase (since that's where the rules about being locked are listed) or that because the assault moves are determined and mandated pre-locking they continue in spite of becoming locked.

Yes, you declare who is charging who and then each unit may preform overwatch once. They can choose from any unit that has declare a charge at them. Also since the Gaunts declared a charge against both units, both units can overwatch them.

Thats what I argued, his argument was that a unit isn't locked into combat untill the beginning of the fight sub phase?

Eldercaveman wrote:
Thats what I argued, his argument was that a unit isn't locked into combat untill the beginning of the fight sub phase?

Check out this thread, come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page

Your assault phase should have went like this.
Nids player: my ygmarl genestealers are going to charge the 3 man squad and the Gaunts are going to charge the 1 man squad and are going to multi-assault the 3 man squad.

So now you have declared your charges and now you opponent may resolve overwatch.

The 1 man squad can only shoot at the Gaunts because only the Gaunts are charging him.

The 3 man squad can choose to overwatch at the Gaunts or the ygmarl genestealers because both are assaulting them. But remember you can only fire overwatch once per squad.

After resolving overwatch you roll your charge distances and move into base to base,if you made it.

No its goes:

1.Declare charge

2. Resolve overwatch

3. Roll charge range

4. Charge move

5. declare next charge

Units charge one at a time.

So gaunts would multi assault first getting in base contact with both units, allowing the second unit to assault without fearing overwatch.

Steffo wrote:
So gaunts would multi assault first getting in base contact with both units, allowing the second unit to assault without fearing overwatch.

That assertation may or may not be correct. Read the thread, talk with your group on how you are going to play it, and if an FaQ comes out follow that.

Pardon me for my insolence sir you are right, me and my group have been doing it wrong lol.

I can see both sides of the argument, I err towards once something is in base you can't overwatch, but pending FAQ just going to have to be sorted in groups or rolled for on game to game basis.

We just resolved it by rolling for it to get on with the game.

This will be important, I'm sure, so I'll put it at the front: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it...cannot otherwise more or shoot" (BRB p23). So once you're in base-to-base, no shooting. (Overwatch is shooting.)

BRB, "The Assault Phase" (p20)
Pick one unit, declare which unit it will charge.
Target enemy gets to Overwatch.
After resolving OW, roll charge distance and move into base-to-base. (At this point, none of the models in the combat can shoot or move except for Pile Ins)
Either declare another charge with another unit, or move to Fight sub-phase.

BRB, "Multiple Combats' (p27)
Pick one unit, declare primary and secondary target.
(You don't get bonus attacks.)
Both enemy units get to Overwatch.
Roll charge distance and move into base-to-base with both units. (At this point, none of the models in the combat can shoot or move except for Pile Ins).

You would then, if you wish, declare another charge with another unit. Since both the primary and secondary unit are in base-to-base, neither can fire Overwatch.
You can therefore deny Overwatch on your cool units by charging first with your crappy units.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
You would then, if you wish, declare another charge with another unit. Since both the primary and secondary unit are in base-to-base, neither can fire Overwatch.
You can therefore deny Overwatch on your cool units by charging first with your crappy units.

Maybe you missed the locked in combat section that states you can only make pile in moves whilst locked.

Since being in base to base means you are locked then you could not move any remaining models once the initial charger reached base contact.

Your assertation about denying overwatch may or may not be correct. Read the thread, talk with your group on how you are going to play it, and if an FaQ comes out follow that.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page

 DeathReaper wrote:

Since being in base to base means you are locked then you could not move any remaining models once the initial charger reached base contact.

I have no idea what you think you just said, but it's silly. Read the rules about moving your charging unit. The initial model moves into base contact. The rest of the models in the unit also try to get into base contact. I'll quote it for you, since you seem to have not read the BRB. "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged.... After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the otherrs in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions" (p21). (The conditions are listed on p21).

My assertion (which you spelled incorrectly) about denying OW is correct.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Since being in base to base means you are locked then you could not move any remaining models once the initial charger reached base contact.

I have no idea what you think you just said, but it's silly. Read the rules about moving your charging unit. The initial model moves into base contact. The rest of the models in the unit also try to get into base contact. I'll quote it for you, since you seem to have not read the BRB. "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged.... After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the otherrs in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions" (p21). (The conditions are listed on p21).

My assertion (which you spelled incorrectly) about denying OW is correct.

1) Assertation, spelled correctly, look it up sometime.

2) I read the rules for charging units. but if you are saying that units that are in base contact are locked in combat, then it follows that units that are locked in combat can only make pile in moves. Therefore, once the initial charger is in base contact the unit is considered locked in combat and can only make Pile in moves. Is a charge move a pile in move?

If you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

The argument against OW is that once the first charging unit finishes its move the assaultee is now locked.

The argument for OW is since the moment the initial charger is in base contact, both units are locked, therefore you cannot move any more models in the charging unit (as they are only allowed to make Pile In moves). Therefore, you obviously cannot be locked in combat at this exact instance.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

According to this, in the next player turn, during the Charge sub-phase, units that are still tied up in combat from the last player turn could fire OW at a charging unit that is joining the combat. Since it's not the Fight sub-phase, they can OW.

So, Thousand Sons charge SM Termies on Chaos turn. Combat grinds on, and both units stay in the combat, neither falling back. In the Marine turn, Tac Squad charges into combat. According to the above interp, since it is the Charge sub-phase and NOT the Fight sub-phase, neither the TSons nor the Termies are locked in combat, even though they are in base contact. The TSons can thus overwatch against the Tac Squad.

In the "Assault Results" section (p26), if a unit loses assault and doesn't fall back, there is no talk of being "locked in combat" -- it says "the unit fights on." If, indeed, being "locked in combat" is only during the Fight sub-phase, then the Termies could leave base contact with the TSons; they could move, shoot, and charge normally, since they are not locked in combat until the Fight sub-phase.

I disagree with this interpretation, because it's silly.

"Locked in combat" is written under the Fight sub-phase, but this does not mean it occurs only in the Fight sub-phase. It occurs when any enemy units are in base contact. "Chargers" (the term from the BRB) are your models who have declared a charge and rolled for charge distance. These models have a special charge move that allows the unit to move the total charge distance to try and get into base contact with the enemy, overriding the "only Pile In" restriction. But the enemy (the Termies from above) is locked in combat as soon as one "charger" (TSon) gets base contact. The rest of the "chargers" may finish their charging, as described on p21. If you are in base contact with the enemy, you may not shoot (except as some few special rules allow).
Then, in the next turn, since everyone is in base contact, and therefore "locked in combat," no one can declare charges, move, shoot, or OW.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

According to this, in the next player turn, during the Charge sub-phase, units that are still tied up in combat from the last player turn could fire OW at a charging unit that is joining the combat. Since it's not the Fight sub-phase, they can OW.

So, Thousand Sons charge SM Termies on Chaos turn. Combat grinds on, and both units stay in the combat, neither falling back. In the Marine turn, Tac Squad charges into combat. According to the above interp, since it is the Charge sub-phase and NOT the Fight sub-phase, neither the TSons nor the Termies are locked in combat, even though they are in base contact. The TSons can thus overwatch against the Tac Squad.

I disagree with this interpretation.

Well, the Thousand Sons couldn't even if that interpretation was true. Slow and Purposeful prohibits overwatch.

But yes, being locked must be a persistent state, otherwise numerous other things start to fall apart. So the only debate is when that state starts, either when base to base is first reached (because that's what being locked is defined as) or at the start of the first fight sub-phase after B2B is reached (because that's the section where locked is defined.)

I lean to the first one, because the persistent state of locked means that the fact that the rules for it are located in the Fight sub-phase rules is pretty much irrelevant.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

According to this, in the next player turn, during the Charge sub-phase, units that are still tied up in combat from the last player turn could fire OW at a charging unit that is joining the combat. Since it's not the Fight sub-phase, they can OW.

That is a logical fallacy and therefore Incorrect.

The movement rules say: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is an ongoing condition once they become locked.

 DeathReaper wrote:

That is a logical fallacy and therefore Incorrect.

It's not a logical fallacy. It's the logical conclusion of your silly argument. There happens to be a rule preventing this conclusion, but it was your argument in the first place. A logical fallacy would be something that does not follow. This did logically follow your argument, there just happened to be a rule preventing it. But that means you have a problem with your own argument, since the conclusion grew out of it.

Oh well.

"Locked in combat" is written under the Fight sub-phase, but this does not mean it occurs only in the Fight sub-phase. It occurs when any enemy units are in base contact. "Chargers" (the term from the BRB) are your models who have declared a charge and rolled for charge distance. These models have a special charge move that allows the unit to move the total charge distance to try and get into base contact with the enemy, overriding the "only Pile In" restriction. But the enemy (the Termies from above) is locked in combat as soon as one "charger" (TSon) gets base contact. The rest of the "chargers" may finish their charging, as described on p21. If you are in base contact with the enemy, you may not shoot (except as some few special rules allow).
Then, in the next turn, since everyone is in base contact, and therefore "locked in combat," no one can declare charges, move, shoot, or OW.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
overriding the "only Pile In" restriction.

Incorrect.

Can't Trumps Must in a permissive ruleset.

 Happyjew wrote:

The argument for OW is since the moment the initial charger is in base contact, both units are locked, therefore you cannot move any more models in the charging unit (as they are only allowed to make Pile In moves). Therefore, you obviously cannot be locked in combat at this exact instance.

I'm curious about where this interpretation came from. If it were correct, wouldn't the fundamental rules of assault break? I mean, how would you ever be able to assault? Not only are you breaking the rules on page 21 (the ones that say that each model must end its charge move in coherency with another model that is already in base contact), but you'd never be able to assault.

I'd say go with the interpretation that breaks the least amount of rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:
overriding the "only Pile In" restriction.

Incorrect.

Can't Trumps Must in a permissive ruleset.

This was a very unhelpful post, and leaves me convinced of my own assertion, and unconvinced of yours. Simply saying, "incorrect" doesn't make me incorrect. You need to give some proof, some reasoning, some logic. (Also, I used neither the word "can't" nor "must." If you insist on using your own terms, at least equate them with my chosen vocabulary. Your sentence doesn't contribute anything to the discussion, since it's so easy to construe either way. Watch: the "troops can't die a fiery death and instead go into reserve" of the Necron transport flyers trumps the "troops must die a fiery death and splat on the ground" of other transport flyers.)

But here's another objection (added to the growing pile of proofs you have ignored) to your claim that "locked in combat" occurs in the Fight sub-phase. BRB p21, OW Restrictions: "units that are locked in CC cannot fire OW." If being locked doesn't occur till the Fight sub-phase, why is this clarification necessary? It is necessary because, as was mentioned above, "locked in combat" is an ongoing effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 puma713 wrote:

Furthermore, if you're not "locked in combat" until the Fight Sub-Phase, then I can charge out of combat on my next Charge Sub-Phase. The only thing stopping me from doing this is being "locked" in the Charge Sub-Phase.

As Monsieur Reaper already pointed out (slightly out of context, but still), the Move Phase (and the Shoot and Charge) gives a caveat: you cannot do these things if you are already locked in combat.

Elric Greywolf wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 puma713 wrote:

Furthermore, if you're not "locked in combat" until the Fight Sub-Phase, then I can charge out of combat on my next Charge Sub-Phase. The only thing stopping me from doing this is being "locked" in the Charge Sub-Phase.

As Monsieur Reaper already pointed out (slightly out of context, but still), the Move Phase (and the Shoot and Charge) gives a caveat: you cannot do these things if you are already locked in combat.

Ah, so he did. What I was trying to figure out was, what basis was there that the unit is not locked when they touch bases? But I see it now. Under "Who Can Fight", it actually defines being "locked in combat".

So, RAW:

1. You declare charge.
2. Resolve Overwatch
3. Roll Charge Range
4. Charge Move

Still not locked.

5. Choose a combat.
6. Fight close combat. Become locked at the Who Can Fight step.
7. Determine Assault Results
8. Repeat or finish.

 puma713 wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 puma713 wrote:

Furthermore, if you're not "locked in combat" until the Fight Sub-Phase, then I can charge out of combat on my next Charge Sub-Phase. The only thing stopping me from doing this is being "locked" in the Charge Sub-Phase.

As Monsieur Reaper already pointed out (slightly out of context, but still), the Move Phase (and the Shoot and Charge) gives a caveat: you cannot do these things if you are already locked in combat.

Ah, so he did. What I was trying to figure out was, what basis was there that the unit is not locked when they touch bases? But I see it now. Under "Who Can Fight", it actually defines being "locked in combat".

So, RAW:

1. You declare charge.
2. Resolve Overwatch
3. Roll Charge Range
4. Charge Move

Still not locked.

5. Choose a combat.
6. Fight close combat. Become locked at the Who Can Fight step.
7. Determine Assault Results
8. Repeat or finish.

That is how the side that says you can Overwatch any charging unit sees it. I have no idea if this is the correct interpretation or nor (my group plays you can only OW against the initial charger) but it is debatable. Hopefully GW addresses it in the next round of FAQs.

So, in the case above, the single bike could've shot at the gaunts, and the 3 bikes could've shot at the gaunts and then no one fires at the Ymgarls. Or, the single bike could've fired at the gaunts and the three bikes could've fired at the Ymgarls, since they aren't locked until the "Who Can Fight" Step.

At least, that's my take on it.

 puma713 wrote:
So, in the case above, the single bike could've shot at the gaunts, and the 3 bikes could've shot at the gaunts and then no one fires at the Ymgarls. Or, the single bike could've fired at the gaunts and the three bikes could've fired at the Ymgarls, since they aren't locked until the "Who Can Fight" Step.

That is the viewpoint of DR's side.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:
overriding the "only Pile In" restriction.

Incorrect.

Can't Trumps Must in a permissive ruleset.

This was a very unhelpful post, and leaves me convinced of my own assertion, and unconvinced of yours. Simply saying, "incorrect" doesn't make me incorrect. You need to give some proof, some reasoning, some logic. (Also, I used neither the word "can't" nor "must." If you insist on using your own terms, at least equate them with my chosen vocabulary.

I gave reasoning, but I will spell it out for you:

Pile in move say that you can only make pile in moves whilst locked (You can't move)

Assault moves say you must move subsequent chargers (Must move)

Therefore: Can't Trumps Must in a permissive ruleset.

Elrick. Don't let these forums frustrate you, I've been trolling around here long enough to know that RAW is almost NEVER as people play and almost never RAI.

I would guess DR plays as once the first charge completes ther is no over watch on anything else. He just takes pleasure out of being the person these forums were specifically built for.

Since 6th I've watched arguments for RAW been shot down again and again by FAQs. But. That's besides the point of these forums which is based on RAW.

The whole locked in combat rule breaks quite a bit in the game. I'd be surprised if it even gets FAQd.

The TOs here and the games in published mags seem to only allow the first over watch which from a fluff standpoint makes the most sence so that's what we play with here.