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Aha, then perhaps you should be making not a salamander codex but a firedrake armylist sett in the setting of armageddon?

Because I want to make one for the chapter not just 1 company.

 Niiai wrote:
Aha, then perhaps you should be making not a salamander codex but a firedrake armylist sett in the setting of armageddon?

You know, this is a great idea. I think wargey should cling unto it, since it WOULD make his army crucially different from the competing Sallydex.

I might fnish with a rule set for the first company. But at the mo I am doing a full chapter dex.

Yes I would really like that. Melle heat terminators.

"Troop Choise

Salamander Fire Drakes:
1 terminator leader 4 terminators 225 points.

Special Rules:
And They Shall know no fear
Combat Squads
War Smiths: Units with the war smiths rules may chose one melee weapon in the unit and make it master crafted. Make shure this is noted on the armylist and shown on the model.

All of them have TDA.
The leadear would have a stormbolter and your choise of poverweapon. (Sword, mace, axe and spear.)

Each terminator may chose one of the following compositions:
1 storm bolter and Powerfist
2 Ligntning Claws
1 Stormshield and 1 Stormhammer at +5 points per model

any model may replace his powerfist wth a chainfist +5 points.

For each 5 models in the unit onemodel with a stormbolter and powerfist may chose one of the following:

Exchange the storm bolter for an Assault Cannon 20 points.
Exchange the storm bolter for an an heavy flamer 10 points.
Exchange the storm bolter for an multi melta 15 points.
May take a cyclone missile launcher for 25 points

Can up to 5 temrinators for 44 points per terminator.

You may mastercraft one or more weapons in your unit at the cost of 5 points per weapon. Be shure to note this on the army rooster and shown on the model.

One unit in your army may take a landraider as a dedicated transport."

While slightly powerfull, if they do not have a any other scoring units in the army then this unit will be a huge point sink in whatever armyr ooster that would be made.

As a design I feel that it is currently to somilar to the dark angels. Also, I am VERY unshure of how master crafted multimeltas will function on terminators. Probably faaar to powerfull. On the otehrhand if they do not have landspeeders or attack bike units this will be one of the few sources of multimelta. Could work?

Sooo...if the rumors are true that space marines get a stormraven I would really like "the firedrake" with flaming missiles. (Whirldwind missile with flame.) Also, it comes in turn 2, has fire missiles that do jack-nill vs flyers and it would be your source of sky-fire. It would be an exiting list to build. Anti infantery or anti air?

Edit: Edited the terminators after I re-read the deathwing codex. Had a lot of entries wrong. should they have combat squads? I am not shure.

That sounds good shell I add it

Troop choice:

Salamanders 1st Company "Firedrakes" ( 120pts)
WS.....BS.....S.....T....W.....I.....A....Ld....Sv
....4........4.....4.....4.....1.....4.....2......9....3+
Compulsion: 4 Veterans & Veteran Sarge

Wargear
Bolt Pistol/Boltgun
Chainsword
Power Armor
Frag&Krak grenades

then options, special rules, etc etc.

What do you think? Kind of what I've been thinking if I'l make Codex: Deathwacth after the Relictors.

If you are going to add them to a regular codex I think you should put them in elite and add:

Dragons Ire: If the opposing forces prove hard the Salamanders will send in the most elite fighters. The dragons ire will smack down like a river of glowing onyx. If you take salamander fire drakes you cannot take terminator or assault terminators in your army. This represents the salamanders focus of slamming down the hammer.

...or something. My fan fiction is rubbish but I think the rules are cool. Or remove the terminator entries, but they have regular terminators...so you know... No scrap the sugestion, but having all 3 terminator antries just seems odd.

Edit: One thing I have thought of that would help your army quite a bit wargey. Put the entries you have so far like LlamaAgilaity has. Right now it is very messy. Also, only put up the sugestions that are actually finished: Or that you are currently working on. That would be LlamaAgillity, my sugested firedrakes and your chapter master special character. Remove the rest of them further down because it is hard to take some of the OUTRAGUS sugestions seriusly. Write the finished entried up to look neat and keep them seperated.

Ok but how do I use spoilers

Or you know, you could just use ordinary terminators and vets to represent the firedrakes, seeing as they are ordinary vets. Just add a multi-melta option. Maybe allow the sergeant to take a drakescale cloak for a 4++ if he didn't take a storm shield.

Less is more.

Blacksails yeah one could do that. But I think it is about artistic liberty. If one first is going do deviate from the Codex Space Marines then at least do it in a cool way. That is why I would prefer that this fandex should be one from the armagedon campain. If Wargey wants to make the 'dex inputs are probably welcome but I think it is clear that he does not want to just use "regular marines". Just go with it.

Well there's only so much artistic liberty you should use when making rules for an army that has so many variations of basic power armour marines that it's easy to just mix and match rules.

Here's all you need to do to have fun, fluffy, unique, but simple, reasonable, balanced and playable firedrakes.

Take Deathwing termite squads. Swap fearless for stubborn and swap the second part of Deathwing assault for re-roll all hits from thunder hammers on the first assault of the game. They still retain the first or second turn assault rule, but lose the TL bolters on the turn they arrive part.

Same cost, and add a MM option.

Done. Nothing else needed. Fluffy, balanced, playable and unique.

In the end, Niiai is right. It comes down purely to ones visions and artistic liberty.

I just think wargey could be better off, if his Salamander codex was more specialized or somehow had a different concentration from the other one.
I hate to endorse, but look through my Relictors also. The statline/unit profile formatting is quite decent, even if I say so myself.

No for those spoilers:
When you click "Edit" or "Post Reply" you will see the screen where you write stuff. In this screen, you have the options "spoiler", "quote" and others. While writing my own codex,I also learned what most (if not all) of these do. Just try out the different things and then click "preview" to see what it will look like, if you post.

Hope I helped. I can see you are getting back on the RIGHT track, as you seem to listen to us now.

Llama I like them. Should I do what GK do with paladins and termies but with drakes and norm termies

Haha LlamaAgility you make it sound like we are gatekeepers with all the awnsers. ^_^ On one side you are of course right, we have a better understanding of balancing a new codex. However, it is more that we have an insight in the design behind 40K mechanics and backround to know the rules. And from knowing the rules we know what rules that can be broken and witch rules that can not be broken. And in that sence, yes we are gatekeepers. But once wargey gets his seleags under him (after this codex is finished) I think he should have a keen understanding of codex building and balancing.

As for those spoilers thank you. I have been wondring about that myself.

 Niiai wrote:
Haha LlamaAgility you make it sound like we are gatekeepers with all the awnsers. ^_^ On one side you are of course right, we have a better understanding of balancing a new codex. However, it is more that we have an insight in the design behind 40K mechanics and backround to know the rules. And from knowing the rules we know what rules that can be broken and witch rules that can not be broken. And in that sence, yes we are gatekeepers. But once wargey gets his seleags under him (after this codex is finished) I think he should have a keen understanding of codex building and balancing.

As for those spoilers thank you. I have been wondring about that myself.

I'm actually just trying to make sure that someone doesn't publish (if unofficially) a codex that is as if a mockery of 40k.
I also think I learn myself by looking into this stuff while making my own dex. Helps me too, if not even more than it helps wargey.

Also, wargey don't. The Firedrake terminators are basically (AFAIK) normal termintaors. Thus, just make Firedrakes in PA as their own unit, and use ordinary assault/tactical termintaors with slight tweaks.

There's only so much artistic liberty you can use when building a marine codex. Marines are so well established rules wise that there's no reason to make a marine codex that differs so much. Even the differences between BA ans SW is not overly significant. With a chapter like the Sallies, you should actually be striving to be as codex adherent and normal as possible with small, subtle and flavorful changes.

Being artistic and creative is all fine and dandy, but these are still rules that need to be balanced and fair and playable against your friends. Keep it simple. Between all the codices and supplemental material, there's so much you can add and mix and match without being complicated or having to invent a number of rules that can be fundamentally represented by rules that already exist.

I'm not trying to stifle any creativity, but rather be the voice of reason to keep the rules easy, simple, playable and balanced.

Blacksail my sugested firedrakes basicly is the deathwing terminator squad. Exept the DE rules and added some others. It is not very complicated and it stil needs to be written out. You cannot just state "death company terminators with multimelta option". You need to type it in more fluently as I did.

And there is no limmit to artistic liberty you can ad when making a codex. GW wants us to get creative and make ouer game ouer own. And who has told you that your interpetation is right? If Wargey wants to make larger then life terminators then let him.

I think you will find my rules easy, simple, playable and balanced.

Ok are we done with the drakes.
(I caled them drake warriors as it sounded nice not because it suited the fluff.)
What do we do now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Velcona
Ws. Bs. S. T. W. A. I. LD
4. 5. 4. 4. 3. 3. 5. 10

Wargear
Amour of the liberum
TDA with a phsyker helm
Inferno lance
Gun choice
R 12. S. 6. Ap. 2. Lance
Mele. S. +3. Ap. 3. Master crafted
Drake cloak
4++

What do you think to the wargear

Dethfire pattern battle tank 220pts
Bs 4. FA 13. SA 11. RA11
Wepons
2 melta guns
Hull mounted flamestrom cannon
Turret mounted dethfire cannon
R 20. S8. Ap1. Melta large blast hevy 1 ordenence

Cramite plates

Slow movement
Can move 6 inch max but can fire as normall.

This tank already exists in a more reasonable form as the Predator Infernus.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/p/Predator_infernus.pdf

I no I am geting one for my bday
Have it as 1 unique
Flame of promeathus

Assuming its a predator tank, it should have rear armour 10. I also don't know how the guns would work on it, as both of those guns are rather large and wouldn't make a lot of sense to fit onto a Predator.

Not to mention that you could by two Infernus Preds for the same cost; one with the flamestorm cannon and one with the Melta cannon.

Sorry, I just can't get behind it when there's literally a tank that does the exact same thing.

I could maybe see a Land Raider variant with the melta cannon, like a variant of the Land Raider Ares with a hull mounted melta cannon instead of a demolisher cannon and flame storm cannon sponsons like the redeemer.

That is a idea it was going to be more lemun russy but a land radier achillies with a deathfire cannon and ether melta guns or flame storm cannon sponsons.
What do people think to my velcona wargear.

You are making up tanks now. If you will allow me the honor let me suggest something that can work as a compass needle to good design.

1: As you can design ANYTHING it is important that you are inspiered by something. Does the tank you sugest exist in the fluff from before? If yes make it, if not...try to put it on hold and polish the important part of the list first (troops and HQ and how it would play on the board.)

2: Learn "the rules" and stick to them. This is why a spacemarine has S and T 4. That is what a space marine is, that is how good a space marine is. A space marine has 3+ save meaning he does not need cover usually, The tank you sugest breaks one rule: It has AV11 behind itself. This is not good design as most tanks can be glanced to death in close combat by S4. This is why tyranid players buy furius charge to their units for instance. Now the S3 gargoyles can kill a predator. As with all rules you need to know when to break it. Landraiders, monolith, stormraven are all super heavy and break this design. Why the stormtallon does this I have NO idea and it is bad design from GW's part IMHO. Also, all guns and movement in warhammer can be divided by 6. This is a balance thing that will become apparant as you play the game more. Your gun has range 20. This is bad design. It should be 18 or 24. You are breaking some of the unwritten rules in warhammer when you do this. As a designer you must know these things. (Like when you sugested a 4+ feel no pain save. It goes against sence.)

What do people think about velcona


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for the bit on the tanks think banblades and lrbt have more than 10 at the back. 9 is not divisable by six and nids have 9 inch range guns on houmagunts (I think they do because a frend said they did so I storm boltered and bolt pistol them every time I play him.) But if you say so I swear I have sean a 4+ fnp charachter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who thinks I should do a first company list and cirtan HQ.

Your friend is wrong. There are no nids with a 9 range. Nothing in the games has it.

No the leman russ does not have more then 10 back.

Ask yourself: are you really going to take inspiration from the baneblade, an apocalypse only unit, for inspiration for your tank?

Yes you saw 4+ in fifth edition. It was called feel now pain. Now in 6th edition feel no pain is 5+. And do not bring the assassins 6+ feel no pain into this. Keep your rules simple.

I have told you before that you would be better of making a first company list sett during the Armageddon war before and I would advice you to do so again. That would keep your codex small and that would be better for one who does not have such a good grip on the rules. It would also make it cooler.

Here are some good design rules, some of them might apply:

http://99designs.com/designer-blog/2011/11/30/10-principles-of-good-design-according-to-dieter-rams/

 Niiai wrote:

No the leman russ does not have more then 10 back.

Well, the Demolisher, Executioner and Punisher all have rear armour 11.

Well that is me bad then.

Niial what do you think to these (a version of the firedrakes made by blacksailsm)

Firedrakes Terminator Squad
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 2+/5++

Wargear
Terminator Armour
Storm Bolter
Power Fist (Deathwing terminator only)
Power Sword (Deathwing Term Sergeant only)

Special Rules
Hammer of Vulkan (replaces Deathwing assault, but does the exact same thing)
Split Fire
Promethean Cult
Anvil of War (replaces vengeful strike, explained below)

Priced at 44pts/model, and has the normal wargear options. May swap normal loadout for pair of lightning claws for +5pts, and TH/SS for free . Any model may take a chainfist for +5pts. Then they can do the normal heavy weapon swap as detailed in the original post.

Firedrake Terminators may select a Land Raider of any type as a dedicated transport. This vehicle must be given the armoured ceramite upgrade.

Hammer of Vulkan: When the Firedrakes are deployed, they strike together as one in the name of Vulkan. (Literally identical to the deathwing assault rule, just add in your own fluff for it)
Anvil of War: Firedrakes are sent on the most difficult and testing of missions. They meet their enemy head on with unflinching resolve and break them on them on the anvil of war. On the first round of assault during the game, all Firedrakes may re-roll any failed hits with thunderhammers during the first round of assault only. (This replaces the vengeful strike rule, which allows DA to count their shooting as TL on the turn they arrive, figured a more hammer-y rule was needed)
Promethean Cult The firedrakes spend their time isolated on Prometheus, all the better to perfect themselves in the way of the Promethean Cult. All Firedrakes are Stubborn and have Preferred Enemy: Dark Eldar. (This replaces Inner Circle, which grants fearless and PE: Chaos)

Niial do you think I should have a DWK salamander unit to represent the prye gaurd could you make a unit of the DWK template using the rules blacksails made