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tuiman 506791 wrote:at least come up with a decent argument rather than, i prefer it this way, every other way is dumb. It does not help your point.

It's bad design.

To quote the most pertinent thing from the article:

In the long run, unfriendly design isn’t going to help websites win new adherents, and winning new readers is the whole point of being a website.

Replace "website" with "battle report", and the point stands.

Never make things more difficult for your consumers.

Original Question: "Why do people use spoiler tags in battlereports?"

Sometimes I would be thinking about a battle report that I have read and I would go: "I would like to see the images for turn X again!". I go on my computer, open the battle report, find the picture and all of a sudden, it moves on the screen, because another picture from a previous turn just loaded, and then it would move again and again... you get the idea. Now, if a battle report has fewer than 30 pictures then the Spoiler tags are redundant (hence in some battle reports I would have 2 or even 3 turns under one tag), however, for reports with 30+ not to even mention 60+ images then please please please don't make me have to look through all of them to find some piece of information. Now, if you don't like it then by all means when you write your battle reports don't use them. In the mean time, writing reports remains an extremely time consuming and thankless endeavour in busy work and your original post comes out with just a tad bit the wrong tone of voice.

Just my 2 cents.

Ughh clicking is soooo hard.

<click>

1st world problems.

 Ailaros wrote:

tuiman 506791 wrote:at least come up with a decent argument rather than, i prefer it this way, every other way is dumb. It does not help your point.

It's bad design.

To quote the most pertinent thing from the article:

In the long run, unfriendly design isn’t going to help websites win new adherents, and winning new readers is the whole point of being a website.

Replace "website" with "battle report", and the point stands.

Never make things more difficult for your consumers.

In all honesty, bad "design" of a battle report seems like a pretty minor consideration in the larger scheme of things. Good frames rarely save bad paintings. Focusing on content might be a more worthwhile endeavor; it's difficult to save a bad painting if it's not even painted yet.

I don't think criticism of format is inappropriate or out of place. Different ways to present reports and make the more enjoyable and easy to read are good fodder for discussion, and are often helpful to writers.

That said, so far it appears that Ailaros is in a very small minority in considering this to be bad design and annoying. If a majority of folks' responding agreed with him, for example, this would be a very useful thread for BR writers.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Of course it makes sense. It reduces load times and reduces scrolling.

It really doesn't, load time is the same either way, it's just more noticeable when it's unspoilered. But honestly, if you're reading the opening lines of the report, then the loading should be long over by the time you get to the pictures. And as for scrolling, if you want to get to some comments then just stop the loading of the pictures and then press the "End" key to get to the comments.

I use spoiler tags to create some tension when something important is happening (the last turn?, an especially epic roll, etc). I agree that splitting for pagination is annoying but not report-breaking. In any case, whatever. To each their own, I don't really care what method an authour chooses as long as they make a badass report.

There are practical reasons why people (and why I) use spoilers.

Jy2's Top 10 Reasons to use Spoiler Tags.

1) If you have a lot of pictures, it makes the report look less cluttered.

2)

 Mannahnin wrote:
1. It's courteous to people with slower connections. IEven for folks with reasonably quick connections, it makes the thread load quicker, especially if you're coming back later after reading the report just for the post-game discussion.

While most have high-speed internet, not everyone does. This makes it a little easier for them to read the report.

3)

 Mannahnin wrote:
2. Some folks find it makes the report better organized and more enjoyable, revealing info stage by stage.

I think it's a really nice way to do things, and I appreciate the extra effort on the report of the writer.

4)

 Crablezworth wrote:

Some post more photos than others. I've done reports with like 200-300 pictures, that can be really annoying in terms of load time, like mannahnin said if you're coming back after having already read the initial report to see what others have posted, it can be really annoying, you end up on a conveyor belt of scrolling since the page keeps getting larger as pictures load.

The jumping text-of-death - when you are reading what someone posts and then it jumps out of view because a picture has just loaded. You then scroll down to read it and it jumps again.

5)

 kenshin620 wrote:
I dont upload Bat Reps but when I'm posting +10 images on the news with some of them 900 pixels or more in height, I'm gonna save the bother of people having to scroll for years!

Use of Spoiler Tags will prevent your finger from falling off at such a young age.

6)

 Grey Therion wrote:
Sometimes I would be thinking about a battle report that I have read and I would go: "I would like to see the images for turn X again!". I go on my computer, open the battle report, find the picture and all of a sudden, it moves on the screen, because another picture from a previous turn just loaded, and then it would move again and again... you get the idea. Now, if a battle report has fewer than 30 pictures then the Spoiler tags are redundant (hence in some battle reports I would have 2 or even 3 turns under one tag), however, for reports with 30+ not to even mention 60+ images then please please please don't make me have to look through all of them to find some piece of information. Now, if you don't like it then by all means when you write your battle reports don't use them. In the mean time, writing reports remains an extremely time consuming and thankless endeavour in busy work and your original post comes out with just a tad bit the wrong tone of voice.

This ties in with the conveyor belt, jumping text-of-death but more importantly, it lets you get to where you want to go quickly. What happened on Turn 4 again? Oh, it's right here on the tab that says Turn 4. No need to sort through the whole report to find specific information.

7) It's better for people who like to read reports on hand-helds. I constantly check my reports, even when I'm away from my computer. I do it through my iPhone. Without the tags, I will never be able to read the comments on my reports. Likewise, I'd like to think that many of the readers sometimes view these reports from their hand-helds as well.

8) It gives your fingers some well-needed exercise on clicking, especially for those who, you know, don't play xbox, wii, playstation or computer games.

9) It allows the author to work on the report in stages, especially if they are really busy. This also lets the reader know how much of the report is done. Hey, I can either wait 1 week before I have the time to sit down for hours to write the report....or I can spend 1 hour at a time when I have time and probably complete the report in 1 or 2 days. Although some people may find this annoying as well, but it's not like the author is getting paid or anything to put out said reports. He is just trying his best to put out quality work in a timeframe that is good for him.

10) Because most people seem to like it. Not all, as is apparent from this thread, but you can't satisfy everyone.

I dislike that when I click on [First Unread] in a thread with many pictures, it only takes me to the middle of the original post which has decided to scroll into where the actual first unread existed moments before.

First off, making people click more is obviously bad design. Ailaros is totally right when he says this is bad-- all other things considered, the user should have to make the minimum possible number of inputs in order to view your content.

However, I think that making your report difficult to read as images load higher up the page and push text down is worse design, especially when it comes to trying to read later posts in the thread. I have Google Fiber now so this doesn't apply to me, but when I was using a slower connection I found it extremely tiresome to read reports with large numbers of images, since my reading speed would inevitably surpass the image loading speed and the post would scroll itself.

Further, having your post entirely unreadable to some users (as with a mobile device) is even worse design. So overall using spoiler tags isn't good, but IMO it is better than the alternative.

I just want to say that even when pictures are inside spoiler tags they still get loaded when you load the page. So putting a bunch of pics in spoiler tags doesn't affect page loading time.

What it DOES help with is the issue with HOW a page loads when there are a ton of pics on it. Many browsers have issues when you're trying to go the 'first unread' post before all the pics have finished loading. As each pic loads, the page kind of 'jumps around' which is a pain.

By putting pics into spoiler tags, you eliminate this issue, which is the best reason to use spoiler tags to hide tons of pictures.


I also personally find it much nicer to be able to collapse and uncollapse the particular turns I'm looking at in a battle report as opposed to trying to find where the 'turn 1' pictures are by scrolling up through dozens of photos.

So you may hate spoiler tags around pictures and may think its terrible to read, but that's just like...your opinion man.

Some of us very much prefer it!

This is obviously a matter of opinion. Your example was bad Ailaros for a couple reasons. One a battle report would have titles to the spoilers and probably more than one sentence. Also you are unlikely to find that many spoilers in one battle report. You are making a biased argument, which frankly, doesn't matter that much. For the record I love your battle reports with the narrative, and I really don't care whether or not battle reports are spoilered or not. The clicking does not matter to me, all that does is organization and, if spoilers help with that, then I say have at it. If you are talking about bad use of spoilers then you could just as easily talk about gakky battle reports which you can't tell a deployment from the center of the board. What it all comes down to though is something that is basically inconsequential and most people don't really care about. Your argument is that it makes it more difficult to read but unless you are reading at a truly spectacular rate (like, inhuman rate) then a click every minute or so is not going to ruin your day.

Another thing is that, as you were talking about the consumer, a huge block of text and pictures can seem daunting potentially for some people. Spoilers work great for luring people in so to speak.

@ OP

FUZZY PICKLES

Why don't you click each spoiler when you get to it? That way you can reveal each turn as you go...

I believe this complaint is a little bit pointless. It is not like the person is putting the pictures in spoilers all at the beginning or all at the end... (If he is, then refer to arguments about bandwith or whatever)

I hate - HATE - the jumping text of doom. Spoiler tags is really the only thing that'll fix that on a forum. So I love spoiler tags used in battle reports.

For my reps I usually spoiler what I would term as "action pics/shots".
These do not necessarily show the ebb and flow of the battle or have much tactical depth to them but are there to capture a "cool" or epic moment.
Perhaps the Avatar has been locked in combat VS a Greater Daemon for 2 turns and finally kills him off or a manticore barrage hits that 20 man Ork unit and blows them asunder.

All of that rep info you can get from the text but having some action shots interspersed with it creates a "man on the ground" feeling imho and greatly add to a batrep.
However having lots of action shots can bog down a rep somewhat and make it harder for the reader to follow whats going on.

Hence, pics that show start/end deployment, important moves or overall tactical manouvering I usually dont spolier as these need to be shown to give the reader a good impression of the ebb and flow of the rep.
I also agree with other posters here spoliers can add a really cool "what happened next moment" to a rep.
I always liked AGs "a dice was rolled for another turn" spoliers especially if the battle was on a knife edge.

Overall I see no issue with them and used correctly and like all things in moderation greatly add to reps imho.

edit: I recently spoilered every pic in a thread due to size (2 reps in one) and in hindsight it was very poor and didnt read or gel well.

The only time Spoiler tags really bother me is when i finally find the one that has the pictures in it and then can't view the pictures because they are hosted by a site that i can't see from work. Pity party for me :(

then can't view the pictures because they are hosted by a site that i can't see from work.

Yeah its been discussed before - can be mildly annoying and a few of us actively encourage trying to host pics via Dakka even if it eats poor old Legoburners server space

Lego says we can host every wargaming-related picture people can upload. Space is really not an issue.

The time and effort it takes to write a battle report is intensive enough as it is, that I appreciate any and all that take the time to do it, regardless of the format used.

Also, I think the spoilers are helpful in most cases.

FUZZY PICKLES (once again)

The problem is with people that do exactly what you did in that post Ailros. You split a paragraph into a bunch of spoilers which is not at all what most people do with their Battle Reports.

I think the putting of individual turns into individual spoilers is a nifty little thing. It is not all that common that people use spoilers in BatReps, but when they do it is not at all an encumbrance.

Once again, the only problem I see with it is if they do something like you did. Which is pretty over exagerating on your part. Because frankly, most people are also too lazy to hit the "spoiler" button that many times when they make the post in the first place.

The only thing I would ask of the spoiler BatReps is that they title each spoiler so that it is not just a bunch of spoilers and a bunch of labeled ones so that there is a nice organized list of the turns.

It also lessens the need for me to scroll down the page, because my time is too valuable to turn the scroll wheel to see the next turn on the BatRep.

EDIT: Also, you are talking about pictures. Normally there are about 1-2 pictures per turn. Put those in spoilers underneath the paragraph about ther relevant turn, you get a neat little thing. I do not understand the problem with it. But it is your opinion and looks like I cannot change it.

Have you ever read a comic strip incorrectly because the word bubbles were placed weirdly? How about a comic where you accidentally looked at the last cell first? Spoilers can also be a mechanism to keep readers eyes on the correct pictures in the correct order. If there is a sufficient amount of text, formatting, or the pictures are large enough this isn't as important, but for a bat rep that has small blurbs of text for each picture it can be easy for the eye to jump ahead to the next visually stimulating picture before actually reading the text explaining what is going on.

Lego says we can host every wargaming-related picture people can upload. Space is really not an issue.

Excellent

I know diddly about hosting/size/£/space so if Lego can, then, huge

LOL why has this thread gone on for 2 pages now, like it's some major point of contention?

DIFFERENT STROKES

I don't care how it's formatted, both styles are valid.

As long as a Batrep A) has nice pictures of painted models and B) is organized cleanly so that I can follow along with what is happening I will enjoy it.

Seriously, time for this thread to die.

And nothing of value will has been lost. Or gained.

they dont want to show the viewer in advance how crap there battlefields are!

I agree, spoiler tags are over-used. They're ugly, even when expanded, and they make it much harder for the user to read.

If you don't want a batrep with dozens of pictures, devise some way of distinguishing between text and picture reports. Or get in the 21st century and get an internet connection that can handle a few static images

There's also an element of pseudo-technicality to it. People like to feel like web programmers so they over-use tags.