A Xenos Player's thoughts on Forgeworld: Will it make Tournaments even less balanced?

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**Shandara**

Larmsword wrote:

That's true, it sounds pretty good. Now because the gun crew have different saving throws than the guns themselves, I can focus fire them, correct? But if there are at least as many artillery pieces as crew, the crew are considered to have toughness 7 against shooting?

Focus fire works on cover saves. If the sabre platforms are behind the aegis defense line they'll have the same cover save. And regardless of crew size, they are all the toughness of the guns.

**Chumbalaya**

Matthias wrote:
The 40K Gladiator is going on 11 years of allowing Forge World - it always has and it always will. Balance isn't suppose to exist in this event.
The 40K Friendly has about as much to do with competitive tournament 40K as I do with choosing the next pope.
The Zone Mortalis events are narrative events using the rules from the Horus Heresy Betrayal book from from Forge World.

The only event that Forge World has an impact on in the sense you are speaking of is the 40K Team Tournament, which has the following rule:

Forge World/Imperial Armour units are allowed in the Warhammer 40K Team Tournament, however due to the scarce nature of these units; each unit is considered unique (0-1) and may only be taken once per Team.
This rule also applies to the 40K Friendly and the Zone Mortalis events. Only the 40K Gladiator allows you to take multiple units of the same type.

Forge World units are not allowed in the 40K Championships, the Warzone Tournament, Horus Heresy - Betrayal or the Combat Patrol events.

See, this is perfect for FW inclusion. Little bit of everything, different formats, but keeps them out of the "srs bsns" event. FW is great for narrative or wacky, OTT games.

**Mohoc**

We allow everything (Codex, FW, FW Lists, HH) in the Atlanta Series. Nobody has ever complained about anything but certain codex stuff being broken.

**Sigvatr**

Forgeworld massively supporting IG? Now that's something new!

There's a reason FW is banned or heavily restricted at most tournaments

**Mohoc**

Sigvatr wrote:
Forgeworld massively supporting IG? Now that's something new!

There's a reason FW is banned or heavily restricted at most tournaments

Yep. There is. Most TOs don't feel comfortable making calls on units they don't see in most regular games. Playing at a big store with lots of diverse armies helps overcome that bias. From my experience, FW has some powerful units, but they come at a price. Most of the time that price really hurts your army in ways that don't involve point cost. For Example the Vulture takes a Heavy Slot, the most precious commodity in the IG codex.

**SoloFalcon1138**

Yet again, Peregrine, your short-sightedness is astounding... I was playing Magic when the DCI first started. The banned cards were the time wasters (Timetwister, Sheherezade, etc.) but there was no rotation system back then. The DCI rules were 3 pages long.
A month ago, someone who was butthurt over a stunning tournament loss proposed rules that would have nerfed a good half of the armies out there. 1500 pts, no named characters, no more than two identical units, etc. It was ridiculous. It pretty much came down to the fact that he was angry that a codex he never played before was so much more over-powered than his list.
40k doesn't need a DCI. Standardized points levels? Pretty much done. Punishing cheese/spam lists? Composition scores exist for this reason. No Forgeworld? Just list it as a tournament rule. Same for fortifications or doubled FOCs. The TOs can do more to squash any rules issues before the tournaments starts by being simple and upfront about common concerns like those. But ahort of requiring certain builds, there is really no way to balance the tournament play for Warhammer in a DCI-like manner without specifically screwing at least one army.

**Peregrine**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
A month ago, someone who was butthurt over a stunning tournament loss proposed rules that would have nerfed a good half of the armies out there. 1500 pts, no named characters, no more than two identical units, etc. It was ridiculous. It pretty much came down to the fact that he was angry that a codex he never played before was so much more over-powered than his list.

Wait, let me get this straight: your argument is that some random person proposed a stupid comp system therefore a DCI equivalent (presumably, like the DCI, run by people who actually know what they're doing) would be bad for 40k?

**tyllon**

Mohoc wrote:
We allow everything (Codex, FW, FW Lists, HH) in the Atlanta Series. Nobody has ever complained about anything but certain codex stuff being broken.

Of cause nobody complained because if they going to complain why even bother to show up at the event. "Nobody complained" is one of the fallacy that TO often fall into.

So in the area you have 100 players and 90% have problems with FW. You hosted an event and 10 guys show up. no one would complain about FW BUT 90% of the players still hates FW.

**Boomstick**

In the UK our biggest events (The UK GT including regional heats and final, Caledonian Uprising, Battlefield Birmingham and attended by all our top players) have all allowed FW and all bar the 1st event it was allowed where there was some shock at a few units which is to be expected (mainly the now nurfed Hydra Platform) they have gone with out problem, sure some people dont like it but i know more people who now go to events than those who dont because finally its being accepted.

**tyllon**

Boomstick wrote:
In the UK our biggest events (The UK GT including regional heats and final, Caledonian Uprising, Battlefield Birmingham and attended by all our top players) have all allowed FW and all bar the 1st event it was allowed where there was some shock at a few units which is to be expected (mainly the now nurfed Hydra Platform) they have gone with out problem, sure some people dont like it but i know more people who now go to events than those who dont because finally its being accepted.

How can you samples those who don't like FW? Because they don't like the events so they don't go. They don't go so you will never meet them or they be ur top players, from your point of view they don't exist. 1) So when you go to those events, you start to meet people that already accepted FW. 2) For those who you know before this debate started, no one like FW. So the number that favor FW can only goes up. Like minded people attracted to each other so when times goes by there are more supporting reason for FW. It is a Fallacy,

**Boomstick**

The top players for the most part are not using FW for various reasons many probably related to it not being need to create winning lists, practicing lists for the ETC, just dont want to and many other reasons im sure they have but the same top people in 5th are still going to events in 6th FW or not..

Unlike in North America the UK is not huge and our community not all that spread out so when we see drops in attendance or people upset about new things coming out or FW being included people know people and word spreads and information easy to come by as to why. So yes some people have publicly stated FW shouldn't be allowed but has it stopped them attending events with FW in? No as far as im aware.

And you did missed the point of the post though. We have with a degree of success included FW into all our major events without major issue. It was never going to be a seamless progression but as people stop fearing the unknown and actually learn something rather than going off rumours and hear say and rules that are years old and out of date then maybe you may start having more successful and inclusive events.

Also to the original question through years of playing in an area where using FW is the norm then its the xenos (Eldar and Tau stand out) races that get the best if not the most love from FW in terms of providing good alternative units.

**Peregrine**

tyllon wrote:
How can you samples those who don't like FW? Because they don't like the events so they don't go. They don't go so you will never meet them or they be ur top players, from your point of view they don't exist. 1) So when you go to those events, you start to meet people that already accepted FW. 2) For those who you know before this debate started, no one like FW. So the number that favor FW can only goes up. Like minded people attracted to each other so when times goes by there are more supporting reason for FW. It is a Fallacy,

Ok, but the same is true of people NOT allowing FW. You can't use the popularity or attendance at no-FW events as proof that people don't like FW.

**Crablezworth**

The job of a TO in my eyes is simply to make things run as fair as possible given the "context" IE 20$ tournaments and 100$ tournaments tend to have attendees with varying levels of expectation, if you expect a large amount of players you should also expect to have to do more work, make more calls and quite possibly rule on some things FAQ's have not addressed yet. Falling back simply on the "you can't please everyone so why even try" mindset seems like a bit of a copout and a white flag, because to me it seems the job of a TO is to at least attempt please people and try and make things as fair as possible given the context (which is anything from a 4 round 20$ 1 day tournament at an flgs right up to 100$+ big multi day tournament) . I agree there's a logical fallacy in saying "well no one complained" because as others have said, the ones who had an issue likely never attended in the first place.

**tyllon**

Boomstick wrote:
The top players for the most part are not using FW for various reasons many probably related to it not being need to create winning lists, practicing lists for the ETC, just dont want to and many other reasons im sure they have but the same top people in 5th are still going to events in 6th FW or not..

Unlike in North America the UK is not huge and our community not all that spread out so when we see drops in attendance or people upset about new things coming out or FW being included people know people and word spreads and information easy to come by as to why. So yes some people have publicly stated FW shouldn't be allowed but has it stopped them attending events with FW in? No as far as im aware.

And you did missed the point of the post though. We have with a degree of success included FW into all our major events without major issue. It was never going to be a seamless progression but as people stop fearing the unknown and actually learn something rather than going off rumours and hear say and rules that are years old and out of date then maybe you may start having more successful and inclusive events.

I think i will go point by point.

For the top players not using FW. I favor a Land Raider and i think land raider should be included but that does not mean i will use a land raider. you can favor having FW but not use it. What you trying to say is FW don't make you auto win and that not the point of my argument. I never say FW is bad, unbalance or express any option about FW favorable or unfavorable. I am saying those who favor FW and using the reasoning: "our" event no one complained or voice objection to it so therefore must be accepted by the population at large that the fallacy.

So is attendance a good indicator for FW support? The question then become how many people did you gain because you include FW? What is the NET gain and lose on attendance There are gamers who favor FW before and they didn't go to events that not allowing FW. aka the reverse side of the argument.

"No as far as im aware." I think that sum it up on why i call it a fallacy. The more different in philosophy than you the more distance he is from you the less likely you will be aware of him.

No i did not miss the point. The event success or lack of major issue is not what the argument is about nor knowledge about FW is part of the argument. As from my point 1, I am pointing out the fallacy of "at our event" or "from my point of view" as a reason for some kind conclusion on the population as a whole had accepted FW. some will say that a Type II error.

It is a sampling error.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
tyllon wrote:
How can you samples those who don't like FW? Because they don't like the events so they don't go. They don't go so you will never meet them or they be ur top players, from your point of view they don't exist. 1) So when you go to those events, you start to meet people that already accepted FW. 2) For those who you know before this debate started, no one like FW. So the number that favor FW can only goes up. Like minded people attracted to each other so when times goes by there are more supporting reason for FW. It is a Fallacy,

Ok, but the same is true of people NOT allowing FW. You can't use the popularity or attendance at no-FW events as proof that people don't like FW.

read above comment and yes you are correct on the reverse argument. but i am pointing out his mistake on his conclusion not saying is FW good or bad.

**Asmodai Asmodean**

Peregrine wrote:
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
A month ago, someone who was butthurt over a stunning tournament loss proposed rules that would have nerfed a good half of the armies out there. 1500 pts, no named characters, no more than two identical units, etc. It was ridiculous. It pretty much came down to the fact that he was angry that a codex he never played before was so much more over-powered than his list.

Wait, let me get this straight: your argument is that some random person proposed a stupid comp system therefore a DCI equivalent (presumably, like the DCI, run by people who actually know what they're doing) would be bad for 40k?

Pretty astounding for SoloFalcon to write more than one line that isn't a cursory dismissal of the post, so count your blessings

Organised, balanced, directed rulesets are in the end more fun and satisfying for everyone, including casual players, who can always just play their own house games regardless and ignore tournament rulings.
Imbalanced, lazily updated rule sets like 40k ultimately alienate players in the long run as certain armies/unitsget shafted and linger in obscurity for decades, which is obscene and unforgivable in GW's case given their size and heft (although possibly inevitable). By having a constantly updated online resource can only help the game, not hinder it. Magic is far better with a stringent ruleset, and without it becomes an even worser case of Rock/Paper/Lizard/Spock.

To get back to the OP's topic at hand, if this were true and FW was op beyond reason, you would see FW models en masse in Tourneys which allow them, which simply isn't the case. Theory-crafting competitive lists, you very rarely see FW units included, simply because they are mostly niche, overpriced, (in real world terms and points terms) and pale in comparison to usual codex choices. FW units in fact are balanced far more often than codex units, and hence tend to be self-regulating. The effective ones are simply pricier/ elite versions of codex units (see: Contemptor Dreads) , which again fill a niche roll.

In any case, 6th ed is the edition of high model counts, and anything FW en masse is pretty impractical points/game wise, unless you're a wealthy/masochistic Death Korps of Krieg player.

On a side note, one of the main reasons I came back to 40k after 5+ years of loathing it are the exquisite models Forge World produces, and the excitement of having new and exotic units to field. That alone, I think, is worth the increased price and somewhat questionable balance issues involved. I am definitely a Forge World advocate- anything that contributes fun to this game is a positive.

**Mohoc**

tyllon wrote:
Mohoc wrote:
We allow everything (Codex, FW, FW Lists, HH) in the Atlanta Series. Nobody has ever complained about anything but certain codex stuff being broken.

Of cause nobody complained because if they going to complain why even bother to show up at the event. "Nobody complained" is one of the fallacy that TO often fall into.

So in the area you have 100 players and 90% have problems with FW. You hosted an event and 10 guys show up. no one would complain about FW BUT 90% of the players still hates FW.

Our events are every six weeks and we have over 30 people attending each event. Usually with a 10-15 person waiting list. I would say that is pretty darn popular. The meta is different from store to store and game club to game club. If you want to run a non-FW event that is fine by me. If it was in my area, I would personally not play in it. The reason is not a power level reason. I simply cannot build a pure Nurgle CSM list with flyers without looking for Forgeworld. I would rather not play than invest $150 to buy models simply to have them for the few tourneys I play in every year. This is also the prevailing reason people play with Forge World in tournament. Sure you get the moron that brings Forge World units because they think they are over powered. Those people tend to end up in the mid field of the tournament, mostly because they are not that good of a player. We have some truly amazing players in our tournament scene that will simply crush gimmicky players.

**zephoid**

So... nids are bad. I hear thats a pattern.

Eldar get one of the strongest armies in the game with Eldar+Corsairs in 6th. Deepstriking 3 units of 5 fire dragons via corsair prince. Warp hunters and nightwings make eldar competitive again. Corsair jetbikes are just upgrades across the board and corsair squads make nice relentless JSJ cannon teams. Wasps allow war walkers in the Troop (for corsair), FA, and HS slots now. Thats a lot of S6.

Tau get all sorts of tricks. You have battlesuits in whatever flavor you want and enough fliers that can get the names confused there are so many. Most are only mediocre, but they still have one of the better air forces in the game.

Necrons have never had a IA, but are soon to get one. The new jump infantry Canoptek is pretty darn mean with T5, melta gun, 3A entropic, and cheap. Next IA is to be necrons so they should get a big buff.

DE have never had an IA. Most of their IA stuff is from ages ago. The tantilus is new and actually pretty darn good.

Nids havent had a IA since 4, where Heirophants were these little dinky things. Seriously, read the fluff, one gets killed by a det pack from an inquisitor. They were the same size as a heirodule by the fluff and much weaker. All the stuff they have is vastly outdated. At this time, IA was only for Apoc so many of the units they made were GCs. The trygon got included in our book and the rest of the creatures are too big for 40k. They simply need a new book.

Also, these books are IMPERIAL armor. Why would they not get more toys as its named after them.

Sabre platforms are tough, but 50 points each for a TL las cannon. Pretty expensive there. Also, if the unit falls back, the guns are destroyed. Brainleech one squad and all you need is 1 wound to make them take a test and probably fail.

Helios are OK, but BS3 TL missiles are nothing to shout about considering they dont even have frag. VS fliers they are pretty poor as AP3 does nothing and most of the fliers you need to kill are AV12. Only very effective vs nid fmcs as demons still have their inv save. Only a mediocre choice.

Hades drill was for DKOK army only until recently. DKOK is pretty much a stripped down guard codex with more arty but less of everything else. no marbo, no vendetta, no manticore, no colossus. Every squad is also more expensive for them to make up for the stubborn and +1 WS they get. Its a decent codex, but in no way OP. In fact, less cheesy than the IG list by quite a bit. Hades drill got nerfed hard from what i hear in IA1 2nd ed. I dont have a copy to comment beyond that.

Land Raider Achilles is still pretty meh. so expensive for not much of a bonus. LR were never about dealing damage, you always took them for the transport. Lower transport and loss of assault ramps is pretty harsh. TFC was always pretty meh in terms of damage. Its useable in 6th, but not incredible. On a land raider it still isnt that great. Its a tough model, but still vulnerable to being assaulted by things that normally kill land raiders in assault. Even glancing the thing to death is no harder than a normal LR.

Lucius drop pods are not for BA. Read closer.

I believe this is relevant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Also, to those people arguing magic, GW has made it very clear they do not care about creating new rules every year or two to deal with the outdated codexes. They wish to maintain a evolving power level where certain armies ARE dominant. Why? Money and changing the meta makes the game a bit more interesting. If a new army is always top dog every 6 months, you have to shoot for something different every time the top dog changes. As codexes age, power creep invalidates most of the lists until the codex finally gets updated. Tyranids has aged far worse than most codexes as it was poorly written to start and 6th largely compounded the problem with fliers being so important and most other codexes having solutions in codex or forgeworld. When the nid codex is updated it could very well be top dog again for a while.

**BryllCream**

Do you mind if I take Earthshakers for 75 points? Oh and they're pretty much immune to shooting too.

Yeah...no.

**yakface**

BryllCream wrote:
Do you mind if I take Earthshakers for 75 points? Oh and they're pretty much immune to shooting too.

Yeah...no.

Sure. They're in the rules, so I deal with it.

Just how I personally don't like Eldrad, Doom of Malan'tai, Seer Council Deathstars, or any other number of completely stupid things in the game but they're part of the game so I just get over it and play on.

Earthshaker Carriages have some significant weaknesses. They're only Ld7 and if they fall back the whole squadron is destroyed, also they get pulped basically automatically in combat and they're stuck in place. Obviously the IG player can negate these weaknesses, but it takes them points and/or babysitting to do so. Yeah, you're generally better off with Earthshakers on Gun Carriages for less points than taking them as Basilisks, but so what? Again, if that was in the codex you'd just deal with it and get on with life.

**BryllCream**

yakface wrote:
BryllCream wrote:
Do you mind if I take Earthshakers for 75 points? Oh and they're pretty much immune to shooting too.

Yeah...no.

Sure. They're in the rules, so I deal with it.

Just how I personally don't like Eldrad, Doom of Malan'tai, Seer Council Deathstars, or any other number of completely stupid things in the game but they're part of the game so I just get over it and play on.

Earthshaker Carriages have some significant weaknesses. They're only Ld7 and if they fall back the whole squadron is destroyed, also they get pulped basically automatically in combat and they're stuck in place. Obviously the IG player can negate these weaknesses, but it takes them points and/or babysitting to do so. Yeah, you're generally better off with Earthshakers on Gun Carriages for less points than taking them as Basilisks, but so what? Again, if that was in the codex you'd just deal with it and get on with life.

There's no way you can compare Earthshakers to Eldrad or Doom of Laman'tai. At 1500 points I can get 9 Earthshakers for 675 points (note that nine Basilisks cost 1000 points, and are a hell of a lot less durable), then enough for a handful of meltavets in boxes and a CCS. The fact is that such an army would be able to lay down a frankly insane amount of damage anywhere on the board. 9 Strength 9 AP 3 ordinance pie plates for 675 points just does not compare to anything in a vanilla dex, especially when you remember that they can only really be dealt with by assault - assuming the guard player is anywhere near competant he'll stick his mech vets in front of them and simply melt anything that tries to get close.

My gaming group are pretty laid back, and probably wouldn't mind if I had a unit or two of Forgeworld units. But if I tried to run even a couple of these I don't think they'd want to play me, any more than I'd want to play against someone else who had them. Three turns of shooting (easily possible if you bring the right back up) would probably leave most armies completely destroyed.

**yakface**

BryllCream wrote:

There's no way you can compare Earthshakers to Eldrad or Doom of Laman'tai. At 1500 points I can get 9 Earthshakers for 675 points (note that nine Basilisks cost 1000 points, and are a hell of a lot less durable), then enough for a handful of meltavets in boxes and a CCS. The fact is that such an army would be able to lay down a frankly insane amount of damage anywhere on the board. 9 Strength 9 AP 3 ordinance pie plates for 675 points just does not compare to anything in a vanilla dex, especially when you remember that they can only really be dealt with by assault - assuming the guard player is anywhere near competant he'll stick his mech vets in front of them and simply melt anything that tries to get close.

My gaming group are pretty laid back, and probably wouldn't mind if I had a unit or two of Forgeworld units. But if I tried to run even a couple of these I don't think they'd want to play me, any more than I'd want to play against someone else who had them. Three turns of shooting (easily possible if you bring the right back up) would probably leave most armies completely destroyed.

Try it at a tournament. You will not win the whole thing. Not even close.

The more you spam a unit the, more you open yourself up to being the scissors to someone else's rock. Agreed that 675 points is insanely cheap for 9 Earthshakers, but its still 675 points and against certain army builds and certain mission types they can be heavily mitigated or even a complete waste and you will most likely lose those games and therefore lose the tournament.

Guard generally lives wanting to first, but if you do with this army you have set up first, which means depending on the deployment type the enemy can keep their units out of the firing arc for most if not all of the game, and now you're down 675 points. Tyranids with the Doom in a pod, Ymgarls, 2x Flying Tyrants and a couple Tervigons would LOVE to see that. The fact that each is firing as a Battery means that they're going to struggle to put too many hits on the Monstrous Creatures and the Terivgons can hold off pooping out more Gaunts until the Ymgarls and Doom (along with the flying Tyrants) can pop the bubble wrap and once you're into that candy center its gonna fall quick.

And there are several other matchups I can think of that at the very least have a good shot to take that out if not have the upper hand.

So IMHO, I say: stop worrying about it. Don't play that crap with your friends because you don't like it and but take it tournaments if you think its completely ridiculous and see what happens.

**Peregrine**

yakface wrote:
the enemy can keep their units out of the firing arc for most if not all of the game

To be fair, the 6th edition artillery rules really broke this, now the guns are no longer vehicles so the limited firing arcs are gone and they shoot in any direction.

**yakface**

Peregrine wrote:
yakface wrote:
the enemy can keep their units out of the firing arc for most if not all of the game

To be fair, the 6th edition artillery rules really broke this, now the guns are no longer vehicles so the limited firing arcs are gone and they shoot in any direction.

True on that, my bad.

I still think my overall point stands besides the mistake, however.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Not to mention that the ever-popular Sternguard in a Pod rips such units a new one. Anything Deep Striking really feths it up too, T7 or not it's still 5+ saves for the crew once you bypass the Aegis.

**angelofvengeance**

To put it bluntly. When has war ever been balanced or fair? Forgeworld just adds more interesting (occasionally silly) stuff to fight with.

**Erik_Morkai**

See comments in Red

Larmsword wrote:
Forgeworld expansions, the units stamped for use in 40k in Imperial Armour and Apocalypse, are a big topic of discussion here on Dakka Dakka and on other forums. Certain major tournaments, such as AdeptiCon, are allowing them. While much has been written as to whether or not this will be good for 40k, I'm going to simply take a look at some of the units allowed from Forgeworld. Some of them are harmless, but some of them could be incredibly destructive to the tournament scene: I'm throwing some information out here to raise the question, for debate, of whether or not Forge World is balanced, and whether or not it actually improves the game for Xenos players, as is alleged. (Xenos other than Necrons and maybe Orks are struggling in this meta, I'm not here to dispute that, since it's common knowledge)

The following link has the list of Forgeworld units allowed in AdeptiCon under "AdeptiCon 2013 Allowable Imperial Armour and Apocalypse Units ":
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458283.page
(note that I will be discussing units designed by Forgeworld for regular 40k games, not Super-Heavies or Gargantuan Creatures).

One thing that bears mention right away is that Eldar and Tau do get Flyers. Some of them are quite good: Eldar Nightwing gets a 2+ cover save the turn it chooses to evade. This creates a huge bonus for these two struggling Xenos armies in the meta.
Yes and while the Phoenix Bomber is more expensive it will eat a Ravenwing for breakfast. 6 AP 3 missiles per turn with a Pulse laser and a pair of shuriken cannons? Hell yeah.

But Imperial armies get better too: while Xenos armies get basic Flyers, Imperial armies get more Flyers, and all the anti-air they'd ever need, and then some, and then some extra cheese on top to boot:

Sabre Gun Platform: Imperial Guard already have the most AA and amazingly cheap Flyers, but why stop there? It's unfair to those poor Guard players to only get autocannons on the ground, to need aircraft of their own to get twin-linked skyfire lascannons! So let's allow them to hide those lascannons in an enormous, Ld10 stubborn objective-holding infantry blob! And let's give them Interceptor too, because it's not fair either to limit them to an anti-air role, and what if the unit arriving from reserve gets to shoot once at the guardsmen before getting shot down? We can't have that, can we?

Hyperios Turret: This is available to most Space Marine chapters. It's crewless artillery, an immobile "Fast" Attack choice, taken in groups of 1-4. Each one costs as much as a Devastator, maybe a wee bit more or less depending on codex. It can't fight back in melee, but is much, much harder to kill by anything but dedicated anti-tank guns. It can skyfire, ground fire and intercept. It is BS3, but is TL, and so is on average more accurate than a Devastator. What does it do? It Skyfires, or fires normally, Krak Missiles, ignoring Jink saves. 35 points per model.

With stuff like this, Imperial gunlines no longer have to choose between anti-air and anti-ground. They can do both, and do it brutally. With such powerful ground-to-air, for so cheap, they can hold their gunline with integrity while making it all the more resilient against air. Meanwhile, Tau and Eldar only begin to get their basic anti-air tools.

And we get Warp Hunters which frankly for a 125 pts are one hell of a deal. Large template AP2 that wounds on 2+ with possibility of Instant Death? Yes please. 2 of them. I killed so many Nids with those things. Swarmlord got one shotted on turn one. We have hornets which are a cross between a Vyper that does not suck and a Warwalker. Much better than Warwalkers IMHO. 11/11/10 fast skimmer, scout, outflank, 2 guns (not TL so multiply the shots by 2 like WW) for 65 pts. Yes!

And that's not to even bring up the other Xenos races. Necrons get virtually nothing from Forge World. And my own Tyranids? They get a Stone Crusher Carnifex(classic Godfex, but no delivery system or ranged attack in a shooty meta, so Tyrannofex does the job better), Malanthropes(Venomthropes better in melee but no cover save aura, a command squad type HQ, melee oriented), and Meiotic Spores(same problems as regular Spore Mines, just on a bigger scale). We have nothing to deal with these new units, and "hurr no allies" still applies all the while. The Hyperios Turret will destroy Flying Hive Tyrants. Destroy them. Utterly. A squad of them will most likely put two wounds on one a turn, before Grounding Tests, while at the same time being able to divert their fire and kill other Monstrous Creatures on the ground. Iron Arm can never be counted on, only Feel No Pain because Tervigons. The Sabre Gun Platform is also capable of the same. Literally every army can become like Grey Knights and Dark Eldar, capable of beating almost all competitive Tyranid lists almost automatically just by running a competitive build.

But while we're on the topic of non-Flyer related units, lets see what Imperial Armies also get:

Hades Breaching Drill: Did you think the Mawloc was good? Did you think Swooping Hawks were good? Well guess what, the Imperium does it better!
It was nerfed, check the latest FAQ

Land Raider Achilles: With 6 capacity, it won't carry Terminators, but it can hold a cheap Power Weapon Wolf Guard/Death Company squad. But why only 6 capacity? To make room for the Thunderfire Cannon. Oh, and it has immunity to Lance and Melta, and any penetrating hits that still somehow get through get -1 to the damage chart. So what did I hear about Forgeworld "helping" Eldar? They can literally only fight this thing by charging it with a Wraithlord or with Swooping Hawks, or by getting close to it with Wraithguard. Their normal anti-tank strategies, their lifeline in 6th, are useless against it, while the Thunderfire Cannon makes mincemeat of their dudes. And how is Dark Eldar supposed to deal with this thing? Use a Talos?

Yes immune to melta and lance. We have Wraithguards, Fire Prism, Warp Hunters, Wraithlords, Fuegan, Seer Council on jetbike, Shadow Specter with Prism Rifle. There are plenty of ways to deal with it and you don't even need to wreck it. A luck weapon destroy result will bring it's effective range from 60" to 24". That thing costs close to what 350? You can kill it for less than that.

Lucius Drop Pod: Furioso Dread with dual Blood Talons, anywhere, anytime. Bye bye, my best squad
Illegal selection. Blood Angels are not allowed to take the Lucious Assault drop pod. This is a no contest. Yes the Lucious Assault drop pod can wreck someone's plans if used carefully but it's not the end of the world. Whatever comes out of there dies the next turn.

All this stuff is legal, in all games, for this year's Adepticon. Eldar and Tau might have a tiny sliver of hope with their new Flyers, but Forge World will just make Imperial armies better, and will just throw off the disparity in power level between codices even further. Not everyone will play Forgeworld, but someone with more disposable income with you will, and will bring a LR Achilles full of Death Company, Furioso's in Lucius pods, and a huge Hyperios turret gunline of 12x 35 pt T6 krak missile skyfire goodness. Or perhaps even worse.
Calm down. No Furiosos in Assault drop pods and Achilles are so ridiculously expensive and not that hard to kill. You just need to think outside the box a bit. Melta is not the only way to wreck vehicules. An S10 MC will pimp-slap that tank into next week.

So while I like the idea of Forge World being legal, I wonder if it will just further inflame the problems with 40k. Especially the problems that Eldar and Tyranids have. Am I being too pessimistic? What is the solution to these concerns I've brought up? I'd like to ask you guys, is jumping on the Forge World bandwagon a good idea right now? Should Forge World be allowed, but with a list of banned units that extends beyond the obvious "no Super-Heavies in normal scale games"? What are your thoughts?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your first thought may be to declare this post TL;DR, I'm sorry for the length, don't read it all if you don't want to, just share your thoughts please.

Tau have access to different suits. The XV-9 with Phased Ion Guns or fusion blasters are not that bad. Expensive but still interesting. Tetras...Just use some tetras man. Relentless, fast, markerlights. You can move around and tag stuff left and right without ever needing to snap shot. FW should be allowed but only 40K approved units. Using super-heavies in a regular game is beyond ridiculous it is cheating. The problem is always the same, people are misinformed and make incorrect statements creating battles in their heads from a paper-hammer point of view. Have you ever faced those units on the field? Has someone ever bothered to run a test game with a proxy? Just to see what happens. Try it and things will look alot less scary.

**skkipper**

wait until i bring my way overpowered blood slaughterer!!!! oh wait never mind :(

FW doesn't break the the game. it doesn't balance the game. it is just more fun rules.
When i go to a two day event I want to fight fun differnet lists. Last year I had a great time at the team event until. I ran into so stupid necron/dark angel list.
In Seattle our local tourney guy has gotten cold feet on forge world and is limiting it to one per army. which totally sucks since i want to bring my Grot Tank horde. This limit is added to the spring event and hopefully he changes his mind for the fall event when i am back in the states.

**tyllon**

Mohoc wrote:
tyllon wrote:
Mohoc wrote:
We allow everything (Codex, FW, FW Lists, HH) in the Atlanta Series. Nobody has ever complained about anything but certain codex stuff being broken.

Of cause nobody complained because if they going to complain why even bother to show up at the event. "Nobody complained" is one of the fallacy that TO often fall into.

So in the area you have 100 players and 90% have problems with FW. You hosted an event and 10 guys show up. no one would complain about FW BUT 90% of the players still hates FW.

Our events are every six weeks and we have over 30 people attending each event. Usually with a 10-15 person waiting list. I would say that is pretty darn popular. The meta is different from store to store and game club to game club. If you want to run a non-FW event that is fine by me. If it was in my area, I would personally not play in it. The reason is not a power level reason. I simply cannot build a pure Nurgle CSM list with flyers without looking for Forgeworld. I would rather not play than invest $150 to buy models simply to have them for the few tourneys I play in every year. This is also the prevailing reason people play with Forge World in tournament. Sure you get the moron that brings Forge World units because they think they are over powered. Those people tend to end up in the mid field of the tournament, mostly because they are not that good of a player. We have some truly amazing players in our tournament scene that will simply crush gimmicky players.

your fall into a logical fallacy.

Hasty generalization
Argument: Every person I've met has ten fingers, therefore, all people have ten fingers.
Problem: Those who have been met are not a representative subset of the entire set.
From wiki

Argument: Every person I've met favor FW, therefore, all/most/a lot of people favor FW.

**Mohoc**

tyllon wrote:

Spoiler:

Mohoc wrote:
tyllon wrote:
Mohoc wrote:
We allow everything (Codex, FW, FW Lists, HH) in the Atlanta Series. Nobody has ever complained about anything but certain codex stuff being broken.

Of cause nobody complained because if they going to complain why even bother to show up at the event. "Nobody complained" is one of the fallacy that TO often fall into.

So in the area you have 100 players and 90% have problems with FW. You hosted an event and 10 guys show up. no one would complain about FW BUT 90% of the players still hates FW.

Our events are every six weeks and we have over 30 people attending each event. Usually with a 10-15 person waiting list. I would say that is pretty darn popular. The meta is different from store to store and game club to game club. If you want to run a non-FW event that is fine by me. If it was in my area, I would personally not play in it. The reason is not a power level reason. I simply cannot build a pure Nurgle CSM list with flyers without looking for Forgeworld. I would rather not play than invest $150 to buy models simply to have them for the few tourneys I play in every year. This is also the prevailing reason people play with Forge World in tournament. Sure you get the moron that brings Forge World units because they think they are over powered. Those people tend to end up in the mid field of the tournament, mostly because they are not that good of a player. We have some truly amazing players in our tournament scene that will simply crush gimmicky players.

your fall into a logical fallacy.

Hasty generalization
Argument: Every person I've met has ten fingers, therefore, all people have ten fingers.
Problem: Those who have been met are not a representative subset of the entire set.
From wiki

Argument: Every person I've met favor FW, therefore, all/most/a lot of people favor FW.

Except that I said the exact opposite of what you are saying I said. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

**tyllon**

Mohoc wrote:
tyllon wrote:

Spoiler:

Mohoc wrote:
tyllon wrote:
Mohoc wrote:
We allow everything (Codex, FW, FW Lists, HH) in the Atlanta Series. Nobody has ever complained about anything but certain codex stuff being broken.

Of cause nobody complained because if they going to complain why even bother to show up at the event. "Nobody complained" is one of the fallacy that TO often fall into.

So in the area you have 100 players and 90% have problems with FW. You hosted an event and 10 guys show up. no one would complain about FW BUT 90% of the players still hates FW.

Our events are every six weeks and we have over 30 people attending each event. Usually with a 10-15 person waiting list. I would say that is pretty darn popular. The meta is different from store to store and game club to game club. If you want to run a non-FW event that is fine by me. If it was in my area, I would personally not play in it. The reason is not a power level reason. I simply cannot build a pure Nurgle CSM list with flyers without looking for Forgeworld. I would rather not play than invest $150 to buy models simply to have them for the few tourneys I play in every year. This is also the prevailing reason people play with Forge World in tournament. Sure you get the moron that brings Forge World units because they think they are over powered. Those people tend to end up in the mid field of the tournament, mostly because they are not that good of a player. We have some truly amazing players in our tournament scene that will simply crush gimmicky players.

your fall into a logical fallacy.

Hasty generalization
Argument: Every person I've met has ten fingers, therefore, all people have ten fingers.
Problem: Those who have been met are not a representative subset of the entire set.
From wiki

Argument: Every person I've met favor FW, therefore, all/most/a lot of people favor FW.

Except that I said the exact opposite of what you are saying I said. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I see why you can't follow logical argument. No one is putting any word in ur mouth just that you don't understand what is a logical argument statement and a purpose for such a statement. I can also see you don't understand what is a logical fallacy. All you been saying did not support that you don't have a logical fallacy more just making statement that i have no interest of.