How would you react to someone taking Sabre Defense Platforms?

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**captain collius**

tvih wrote:
captain collius wrote:

2nd i'd rather face a stormraven.
Is it harder to kill..... YES.
Does it carry a Dread.... Yes.
Does it do a lot of damage shooting.....No not really you can optimize it to be a horde killer or a tank hunter but it isn't a hard on 3+ saves as a helldrak tt doesn't have the sheer firepower of a vendetta. Its really at its best against foot hordes

I'm confused... are you saying the SR is harder to kill? The Heldrake has a 5++ invulnerability meaning it doesn't even need to Jink, AND it can regen a hull point with a roll of 5+ at the start of the controlling player's turn (if I recall correctly) due to It Will Not Die. The only more survivable part of the Stormraven is the better rear armor, but rarely do I see flyers actually getting hit in the butt.

Now, Stormraven is by no means a bad flyer, but honestly making it more than 200 points seems a bit much, especially considering as codices get updated more and more flakk will find itself in the game. The pure destructive 360-degree annihilating power of the Heldrake at 30 points less is far more out of whack, and then there's of course the 130-point Vendettas. As for Stormraven having transport capacity (though so does Vendetta), it's also a very risky thing to carry passengers - either you risk it being shot down and the passengers getting killed, or "failing" that you need to go to hover mode to actually disembark them - short of risking a destructive scattering deployment and even if surviving not being able to assault that turn - at which point it's a big, fat expensive and easy to kill target. So as a passenger transport the best you can probably hope for is arriving, shooting something, not get killed by AA, disembark passengers next turn, shoot something, and die. But I suppose this goes a bit off topic.

More on topic - I wouldn't really mind if people use FW as the game is in no shape or form balances anyway, but locally no one actually uses FW stuff.

I find not being vulnerable to melta and av 12 all-around makes it pretty damn good. Helldrakes probably bother me less than most because I bring an army with all 2+ saves.

**CaptainGrey**

captain collius wrote:
tvih wrote:
captain collius wrote:

2nd i'd rather face a stormraven.
Is it harder to kill..... YES.
Does it carry a Dread.... Yes.
Does it do a lot of damage shooting.....No not really you can optimize it to be a horde killer or a tank hunter but it isn't a hard on 3+ saves as a helldrak tt doesn't have the sheer firepower of a vendetta. Its really at its best against foot hordes

I'm confused... are you saying the SR is harder to kill? The Heldrake has a 5++ invulnerability meaning it doesn't even need to Jink, AND it can regen a hull point with a roll of 5+ at the start of the controlling player's turn (if I recall correctly) due to It Will Not Die. The only more survivable part of the Stormraven is the better rear armor, but rarely do I see flyers actually getting hit in the butt.

Now, Stormraven is by no means a bad flyer, but honestly making it more than 200 points seems a bit much, especially considering as codices get updated more and more flakk will find itself in the game. The pure destructive 360-degree annihilating power of the Heldrake at 30 points less is far more out of whack, and then there's of course the 130-point Vendettas. As for Stormraven having transport capacity (though so does Vendetta), it's also a very risky thing to carry passengers - either you risk it being shot down and the passengers getting killed, or "failing" that you need to go to hover mode to actually disembark them - short of risking a destructive scattering deployment and even if surviving not being able to assault that turn - at which point it's a big, fat expensive and easy to kill target. So as a passenger transport the best you can probably hope for is arriving, shooting something, not get killed by AA, disembark passengers next turn, shoot something, and die. But I suppose this goes a bit off topic.

More on topic - I wouldn't really mind if people use FW as the game is in no shape or form balances anyway, but locally no one actually uses FW stuff.

I find not being vulnerable to melta and av 12 all-around makes it pretty damn good. Helldrakes probably bother me less than most because I bring an army with all 2+ saves.

So it can't kill your stuff as easily?

It's still much harder to kill than the Stormraven.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

buddha wrote: If you're taking the platforms to help shore up your AA because your codex lacks it then no, you're powergaming.

At the end of the day FW is not a part of the game and if you are using those rules units then make sure it isn't because you want to win more.

This is funny for me

**captain collius**

@CaptainGrey (this is just to make the posts easier to read.) I disagree if i can get my terminator quad behind the helldrake (not easy but possible) I can blow holes in it with most of my ranged weapons thanks to rear armor you just can't do that with a raven.

**CaptainGrey**

captain collius wrote:
@CaptainGrey (this is just to make the posts easier to read.) I disagree if i can get my terminator quad behind the helldrake (not easy but possible) I can blow holes in it with most of my ranged weapons thanks to rear armor you just can't do that with a raven.

If by "blow holes in it" you mean hit on 6's, glance on 6's, and then he gets a chance to save on 5+, and then next turn regen a lost Hull point on a 5+.

I'm not saying you don't think that the Heldrake is more durable. I understand that you don't. I'm just saying that, mathematically, it is more durable.

**DarknessEternal**

I would continue setting up and play the game as normal.

There are simply no units in any codex or Forge World book that a that big of a deal.

**captain collius**

CaptainGrey wrote:
captain collius wrote:
@CaptainGrey (this is just to make the posts easier to read.) I disagree if i can get my terminator quad behind the helldrake (not easy but possible) I can blow holes in it with most of my ranged weapons thanks to rear armor you just can't do that with a raven.

If by "blow holes in it" you mean hit on 6's, glance on 6's, and then he gets a chance to save on 5+, and then next turn regen a lost Hull point on a 5+.

I'm not saying you don't think that the Heldrake is more durable. I understand that you don't. I'm just saying that, mathematically, it is more durable.

Well i was refering to my assault cannons but point taken.

**iGuy91**

I would obviously throw a fit and my models in frustration

Haha, I wouldn't really have any issue with it. I don't really care about flyers very much, even as a Necron player.

**tvih**

captain collius wrote:
I find not being vulnerable to melta and av 12 all-around makes it pretty damn good. Helldrakes probably bother me less than most because I bring an army with all 2+ saves.

The "melta resistance" is hardly a big deal. I mean really, when the hell does a melta - much less melta within the "half-range" - ever hit a flyer, unless the shooter himself is a Stormraven, or since this is a "FW" thread, Storm Eagle?

**Mr Morden**

The very first time I used a Valykrie in a 6th Ed game, the Salamanders player destroyed it with a single lucky melta shot - his first shot against the flyer.

**Cheesedoodler**

Baldsmug wrote:
Desubot wrote:
If the person had the current books, and the models i wouldn't have a problem.

If he had stole online PDFs, and cardboard turrets, i wouldn't even unpack.

But if it was a fully painted army with very well made scratch builds i would play against it without too much complaint.

What if they had stolen online PDFs and a really nice scratch built model that was painted really well. And they presented you with a packet that included any AI rules they might be using as well as a list that was done in excel and included all items of wargear in a well laid out manner to go along with an army that is WYSIWYG. Would that be good enough for you? cause thats how i role

No.

I would never play with anyone who was clearly using a pirated online PDF of any of the rulebooks. If you do not OWN the rules for a model I won't let you use that model in a game against me. It's deplorable. Nothing is worse than asking someone to see the rules for a unit, and have them say "hold on, let me boot up my laptop so I can show you on this PDF I stole from GW" This is the stance of our FLGS as well, so it is almost never an issue for us.

Obviously this is a much more extreme example (which may not apply), but something that always comes to mind:
After a game you wouldn't say "let me call a friend with this phone I stole, and then the three of us can meet up here and I'll drive to Taco Bell with this car I stole, and then I'll buy us lunch with this money I stole." So why are people so upfront and nonchalant about showing off the codices and rulebooks they stole?

**phoenixrisin**

Desubot wrote:
If the person had the current books, and the models i wouldn't have a problem.

If he had stole online PDFs, and cardboard turrets, i wouldn't even unpack.

But if it was a fully painted army with very well made scratch builds i would play against it without too much complaint.

you sound really fun

**DarknessEternal**

Cheesedoodler wrote:
Nothing is worse than asking someone to see the rules for a unit, and have them say "hold on, let me boot up my laptop so I can show you on this PDF I stole from GW"

Nothing is worse than that? Nothing at all? Perhaps you should reconsider that statement.

**Desubot**

phoenixrisin wrote:
Desubot wrote:
If the person had the current books, and the models i wouldn't have a problem.

If he had stole online PDFs, and cardboard turrets, i wouldn't even unpack.

But if it was a fully painted army with very well made scratch builds i would play against it without too much complaint.

you sound really fun

Well I am a fun guy.

I don't think its unreasonable to play with some one if they really did spend the time to make their stuff look nice. But it is definitely reasonable for a LFGS to not allow pirated rules (not the worse thing ever but still should be frowned upon)

**kronk**

Let's not move this conversation into yet another "Morales of Pirated .pdf" discussion, please.

**Polonius**

kronk wrote:
Let's not move this conversation into yet another "Morales of Pirated .pdf" discussion, please.

But I have deeply passionate, substanitally mis-informed veiws on the subject!

**kronk**

I'm sure we all do!

The Sabre Defense Platform comes with one gunner and can add another gunner. The model has a dude on the platform. Do people count this as one of the gunners when they field it, or do that put 1 or 2 IG dudes next to it and just call the gunner on the platform decoration? Technically, the platform is the artillery piece, and that's separate from the gunner(s), right?

**Cheesedoodler**

I count the guy it comes with as the Gunner, and add another dude if I spend the points for another one.

**kronk**

As an artillery unit, you can lose the gun, and not the gunner, if that makes sense. Not that 1 IG dude with a lasgun in a heavy slot is that much of a threat, I suppose.

**Quanar**

kronk wrote:
As an artillery unit, you can lose the gun, and not the gunner, if that makes sense. Not that 1 IG dude with a lasgun in a heavy slot is that much of a threat, I suppose.

You get the same problem with the new-style Eldar Support weapons, where one gunner is 'straddling' the gun. Just makes it awkward if you don't have a spare guardian to swap in when the gun goes poof...

**washout77**

Quanar wrote:
kronk wrote:
As an artillery unit, you can lose the gun, and not the gunner, if that makes sense. Not that 1 IG dude with a lasgun in a heavy slot is that much of a threat, I suppose.

You get the same problem with the new-style Eldar Support weapons, where one gunner is 'straddling' the gun. Just makes it awkward if you don't have a spare guardian to swap in when the gun goes poof...

If I know im taking Sabre Platforms, I like to have a few " Bailed Out Crewman" style Guardsmen to represent that one gunner. He actually doesn't die usually, since one Lasgun that doesn't score isn't really high on the target priority list

**CrowSplat**

Same deal with FW's rapiers.. I would say count the guy on the platform as 1 crew if you want. The only thing that it does is make it easier to hit the gun and the crew member with a single blast or template.

**Paitryn**

I don't see a problem with them, though I question your methodology as to why. You don't have interceptor, yet you would have access to the same interceptor options everyone else has so thats a non issue really.

your codex has more ways to deal with AA than anyone else in the game thus far Hydras can down a SR on sheer firepower where some armies flyer (like orks) can barely scratch one. you also get a vendetta for cheap bringing 3 tl lascannons to what is generally an autocannon fight. Lets not forget all the codex's that only have the interceptor options availible to them as of now....

Again I don't mind FW stuff (though here you cant use them in tourney) I just don't find your reasoning as to why to be truly justified since without the sabre you can still gain massive air superiority over everyone else.

**Cheesedoodler**

washout77 wrote:
Quanar wrote:
kronk wrote:
As an artillery unit, you can lose the gun, and not the gunner, if that makes sense. Not that 1 IG dude with a lasgun in a heavy slot is that much of a threat, I suppose.

You get the same problem with the new-style Eldar Support weapons, where one gunner is 'straddling' the gun. Just makes it awkward if you don't have a spare guardian to swap in when the gun goes poof...

If I know im taking Sabre Platforms, I like to have a few " Bailed Out Crewman" style Guardsmen to represent that one gunner. He actually doesn't die usually, since one Lasgun that doesn't score isn't really high on the target priority list

Hold on. I had thought that if Sabres are taken as part of an infantry platoon that makes them a troops choice, and therefor a scoring unit? Where am I wrong here?

**washout77**

Cheesedoodler wrote:
washout77 wrote:
Quanar wrote:
kronk wrote:
As an artillery unit, you can lose the gun, and not the gunner, if that makes sense. Not that 1 IG dude with a lasgun in a heavy slot is that much of a threat, I suppose.

You get the same problem with the new-style Eldar Support weapons, where one gunner is 'straddling' the gun. Just makes it awkward if you don't have a spare guardian to swap in when the gun goes poof...

If I know im taking Sabre Platforms, I like to have a few " Bailed Out Crewman" style Guardsmen to represent that one gunner. He actually doesn't die usually, since one Lasgun that doesn't score isn't really high on the target priority list

Hold on. I had thought that if Sabres are taken as part of an infantry platoon that makes them a troops choice, and therefor a scoring unit? Where am I wrong here?

*looks up in book* Oh. Wow. I completely screwed that up. Nevermind, that part doesn't exist hahahaha

Even though they are scoring, it's still only 2-3 guys with lasguns hahaha

**Peregrine**

creeping-deth87 wrote:
Okay let me get this straight... this community is largely in agreement that the Vendetta is undercosted at 130 points, but cries cheese over a 150 point unit of Sabre Guns that have the same damage output but lose the mobility, hard to hit rule, transport capacity, and the resilience of the Vendetta? Seriously?

1) People still hate the Vendetta and cry "cheese" about it, and a lot of people wouldn't want to play against a Vendetta spam army.

2) The thing that breaks Sabre guns is the interceptor rule. Without it they're just another random AA gun. With it they blow up all of your flyers as soon as you put them on the table. Vendettas, on the other hand, at least give you one turn of shooting with your flyers, and possibly more if you can exploit awkward flyer movement and prevent them from moving into a position to shoot you next turn. So there's a huge difference between the two.

**Hospy**

I don't have any flyers, so it hardly makes any difference to me.