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I'm an IG player who's always enjoyed using Forge World models as a way to break up the monotony of my army (alot of my Cadians have the various upgrades like Hostile Enviroment Kit, etc), and also to fill holes that there are no plastic models for (Griffon, Hydra). I try to steer clear of models that I don't feel like fit my army (I will likely never take a Basilisk in a regular game, because I don't feel like an artillery gun that large has a place in the small battlefield you play on. I've picked up a few FW only models, such as the Vulture, to play around with, because I like the idea of a heavy CAS aircraft. But since 6th hit I've been having a hard time dealing with flyers--I'm not going to start Vendetta spam, and fliers themselves as your only anti-flier tools suffer the same issues as Hydras themselves--no interceptor means if you come on first, their own fliers get free shots at you.

So I've been thinking of picking up a few Sabre Defense Platforms, but I'm worried that people will think I'm trying to abuse the various overpowered FW units if I do so. Any thoughts?

I would be okay with it, but then again I field Tarantula Sentry Guns and a Vulture with Punisher Gatling Cannons...

Well given that you do already have several FW units and it would seem that you do not intend on spamming units that have a reputation for cheese, I would be cool with it.

The key is in moderation. Most people will eat a little cheese on their burger but nobody sits and eats a whole block of velveeta.

Indarys wrote:
I'm an IG player who's always enjoyed using Forge World models as a way to break up the monotony of my army (alot of my Cadians have the various upgrades like Hostile Enviroment Kit, etc), and also to fill holes that there are no plastic models for (Griffon, Hydra). I try to steer clear of models that I don't feel like fit my army (I will likely never take a Basilisk in a regular game, because I don't feel like an artillery gun that large has a place in the small battlefield you play on. I've picked up a few FW only models, such as the Vulture, to play around with, because I like the idea of a heavy CAS aircraft. But since 6th hit I've been having a hard time dealing with flyers--I'm not going to start Vendetta spam, and fliers themselves as your only anti-flier tools suffer the same issues as Hydras themselves--no interceptor means if you come on first, their own fliers get free shots at you.

So I've been thinking of picking up a few Sabre Defense Platforms, but I'm worried that people will think I'm trying to abuse the various overpowered FW units if I do so. Any thoughts?

I field two in my 1850 list; never heard an ounce of complaint.

They're not overpowered; they're not broken. They're just good AA. More codices should have stuff like them.

Ld7 gun platforms that can't hide in a platoon and who lose their guns if they fall back, even if they regroup, yeah, I'm ok with them. Most people think they're bad because they think you can hide them in a Blob squad and don't realize they're Ld7.

They're legal units, so having an "issue" with them is something of an outdated sentiment. That said, I wouldn't have a problem with them, nor would any of the players in my local club.

I might have a problem with it, for two reasons:

1) They're really, really overpowered. The changes to artillery and AA weapons in 6th gave them a huge boost without a corresponding point increase, and enough of them can effectively remove flyers as a viable option (or at least reduce the game to "kill the Sabre guns in one turn or lose all my flyers"). And, worse than other overpowered units, that flyer-denial factor makes them a lot less fun than, say, a Vendetta which is just a point-efficient tank killer and doesn't fundamentally change the game as much.

2) I don't have a top-tier list. Since the average player around here doesn't have an optimized tournament list I've deliberately avoided abusing the most powerful options (no Vendettas, no Sabre guns, etc) in my army. Facing a list with those overpowered units makes me wish I'd completely changed my army to include them myself, so it's going to be a lot less fun when my flyers all explode before they get to do anything. Meanwhile nobody else has that kind of list, so if I did buy the power units (and spend a ton of time painting them) I'd just be doing the same to anyone but the one Sabre-abuser.

Now, if you're playing an otherwise less than efficient list that happens to have a Sabre platform in it, maybe I'd play against it. But they're a unit that quickly leads to one-sided games if you don't acknowledge how overpowered they are and make a conscious effort to avoid dominating your opponents with a list that uses them.

The problem we have with the Guard heavy weapons is that you either have :
- way too fragile HWT (and thus overcosted)
- way too resilient Sabre (and thus undercosted)

Though it is true that it is quite easy to take care of Sabres as well, you only need to kill one guy to force a Ld7 test, easy to miss

TanKoL wrote:
Though it is true that it is quite easy to take care of Sabres as well, you only need to kill one guy to force a Ld7 test, easy to miss

Assuming you have single platforms. If you have a full unit of them you don't have to take a test, and the foot lists that make best use of Sabre guns will have some kind of LD boost to minimize the chances of failure.

Also, in the long run, sure, you can kill them. The problem is that you have one shooting phase to do it, your reserves arrive on a 3+ so on turn 2 you're losing several flyers to interceptor fire before you get a second turn to shoot at the Sabre guns.

How i would react: "COOL! What is that thing? That is awesome hope i can kill it before it kills me. Good luck buddy "
That is how i react to most things 40k related. I am a simple man.

Be pleased to see them

So you would have 2-3 shots from them behind an aegis , plus a eldar exarch maning an icarus and quad gun [for double taping and to have psychic protection through taking a seer] to shot twice with it . That is kind of a good against flyers and hard to kill too . And if we end up with night fight on turn 1 and you start then I cant even take them down with my IG list. and my flyers will be coming out of reservs when it is already bright .

If the person had the current books, and the models i wouldn't have a problem.

If he had stole online PDFs, and cardboard turrets, i wouldn't even unpack.

But if it was a fully painted army with very well made scratch builds i would play against it without too much complaint.

 Desubot wrote:
If the person had the current books, and the models i wouldn't have a problem.

If he had stole online PDFs, and cardboard turrets, i wouldn't even unpack.

But if it was a fully painted army with very well made scratch builds i would play against it without too much complaint.

What if they had stolen online PDFs and a really nice scratch built model that was painted really well. And they presented you with a packet that included any AI rules they might be using as well as a list that was done in excel and included all items of wargear in a well laid out manner to go along with an army that is WYSIWYG. Would that be good enough for you? cause thats how i role

 Baldsmug wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
If the person had the current books, and the models i wouldn't have a problem.

If he had stole online PDFs, and cardboard turrets, i wouldn't even unpack.

But if it was a fully painted army with very well made scratch builds i would play against it without too much complaint.

What if they had stolen online PDFs and a really nice scratch built model that was painted really well. And they presented you with a packet that included any AI rules they might be using as well as a list that was done in excel and included all items of wargear in a well laid out manner to go along with an army that is WYSIWYG. Would that be good enough for you? cause thats how i role

only if he had extras rules packets because i love reading those books.

If it was the actual FW model and book, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Well, FW only shows up after both of us have agreed to it beforehand, so I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'd probably have something like a Tomb Stalker or Mega Dread of my own.

Are you taking them becuase you have cool FW themed force or are you taking them to win? If the latter I'd say no.

We have a player at our FLGS who has a butload of FW units that we let him use becuase he just wants the cool models on the field (and fields his whole army as FW stuff), and winning is secondary at best. If you're taking the platforms to help shore up your AA because your codex lacks it then no, you're powergaming.

 buddha wrote:
Are you taking them becuase you have cool FW themed force or are you taking them to win? If the latter I'd say no.

We have a player at our FLGS who has a butload of FW units that we let him use becuase he just wants the cool models on the field (and fields his whole army as FW stuff), and winning is secondary at best. If you're taking the platforms to help shore up your AA because your codex lacks it then no, you're powergaming.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization.

My primary army is Black Templars. Other than allies or the Aegis Defense Line with Quad gun, we have very little "effective" AA. I play against a Chaos player with 2 Hell drakes, an Eldar player with 2 of the FW fliers, and an IG player with 3 Vendettas. I don't want to use allies and the quad gun is meh at best. What can I do to compete? Contemptor Dreadnought with 2x Kheres Assault Cannons? Now i have something reasonable.

 kronk wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Are you taking them becuase you have cool FW themed force or are you taking them to win? If the latter I'd say no.

We have a player at our FLGS who has a butload of FW units that we let him use becuase he just wants the cool models on the field (and fields his whole army as FW stuff), and winning is secondary at best. If you're taking the platforms to help shore up your AA because your codex lacks it then no, you're powergaming.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization.

My primary army is Black Templars. Other than allies or the Aegis Defense Line with Quad gun, we have very little "effective" AA. I play against a Chaos player with 2 Hell drakes, an Eldar player with 2 of the FW fliers, and an IG player with 3 Vendettas. I don't want to use allies and the quad gun is meh at best. What can I do to compete? Contemptor Dreadnought with 2x Kheres Assault Cannons? Now i have something reasonable.

Ya but that goes exactly to my point of you are using units not in your codex (or heck even you allied codexes) to shore up an inherent weakness. Now it sucks for BT, no doubt, the dex is older than Methuselah, but you are also being inflexible with the options you do have. BT can take allies if you really needed them and you still have some options on your own with Dual assault cannon termie units, plentiful landraiders, and the ability to put a good amount of troops on field (this is an objective edition afterall). At the end of the day FW is not a part of the game and if you are using those rules units then make sure it isn't because you want to win more.

50 points for a TL BS3 lascannon really isnt undercosted. For 35 you get a lascannon that can just be bs4 on an ADL. They were way overcosted in 5th and in 6th they are good, but not broken. I would rather see anti-flier be strong than fliers. The other weapon options are pretty meh seeing as HWT are supposed to be shooting vehicles.

BT can get Helios turrets i believe. Much better than the Sabre platforms. Cheaper, cant be locked in combat, and no ld. TL BS3 missile is pretty meh, but the price is right, the units are large, and they are easy to make.

I just wish that DKOK could get them. Still have no solution to fliers and i would love my HV stubber spam platforms. 90 points for 18 S4 AP6 shots TL is a pretty decent heavy weapons team. Wont break vehicles, but it can sure put out some dakka.

 buddha wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Are you taking them becuase you have cool FW themed force or are you taking them to win? If the latter I'd say no.

We have a player at our FLGS who has a butload of FW units that we let him use becuase he just wants the cool models on the field (and fields his whole army as FW stuff), and winning is secondary at best. If you're taking the platforms to help shore up your AA because your codex lacks it then no, you're powergaming.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization.

My primary army is Black Templars. Other than allies or the Aegis Defense Line with Quad gun, we have very little "effective" AA. I play against a Chaos player with 2 Hell drakes, an Eldar player with 2 of the FW fliers, and an IG player with 3 Vendettas. I don't want to use allies and the quad gun is meh at best. What can I do to compete? Contemptor Dreadnought with 2x Kheres Assault Cannons? Now i have something reasonable.

Ya but that goes exactly to my point of you are using units not in your codex (or heck even you allied codexes) to shore up an inherent weakness. Now it sucks for BT, no doubt, the dex is older than Methuselah, but you are also being inflexible with the options you do have. BT can take allies if you really needed them and you still have some options on your own with Dual assault cannon termie units, plentiful landraiders, and the ability to put a good amount of troops on field (this is an objective edition afterall). At the end of the day FW is not a part of the game and if you are using those rules units then make sure it isn't because you want to win more.

Please see the 43 pages of discussion about FW being part of the game. Familiarize yourself with arguments Pro/Con and use them, please.

I have 3 AA options as a Black Templar Player: Allies, ignore AA, FW.

The fact that you don't like FW is YOUR problem. Don't you dare call me a power gamer because of YOUR hangups, buddy. And neither is wanting at least a fighting chance of breaking even, which is all a Contemptor gives you for it's expense.

I think with the way the game has opened up so dramatically, with allies, foritfications, and simply the rapidly expanding codex lists, drawing the line at FW, even if simply in an attempt to gain competitive advantage, is increasingly untenable.

don't get me wrong, I worry about the effect of only allowing people with expensive books/models to gain said advatange, but I also worried about allies ruining the game.

OTOH, this is an IG player. Would you really be happier if instead of using Sabers, he just inclueded three Vednettas in every list?

And, as always... the problem isn't with fliers or anti-aircraft in general. The vast majority of balance problems with fliers are from the Vendetta and (to a lesser extent) the Stormraven.

 Polonius wrote:
The vast majority of balance problems with fliers are from the Vendetta and (to a lesser extent) the Stormraven.

I'd rather face a Stormraven over a Heldrake any day.

 tvih wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
The vast majority of balance problems with fliers are from the Vendetta and (to a lesser extent) the Stormraven.

I'd rather face a Stormraven over a Heldrake any day.

I agree, but the Heldrake is at least (IIRC) still only AV11, meaning that the AA most widely available can still treaten it.

On a side note, is the Heldrake one of the few mono-purpose kits GW has made recently? Nearly everything has been a dual purpose kit.

I guess the DE fighter is a one unit kit, as is the Storm Talon.

CrowSplat wrote:
but nobody sits and eats a whole block of velveeta.

I've done it, Also i don't recommend it.

To the OP, Sabre are very good so as long as you play them with a little moderation it should be great fun.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:

 tvih wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
The vast majority of balance problems with fliers are from the Vendetta and (to a lesser extent) the Stormraven.

I'd rather face a Stormraven over a Heldrake any day.

I agree, but the Heldrake is at least (IIRC) still only AV11, meaning that the AA most widely available can still treaten it.

On a side note, is the Heldrake one of the few mono-purpose kits GW has made recently? Nearly everything has been a dual purpose kit.

I guess the DE fighter is a one unit kit, as is the Storm Talon.

Sorry man its AV12

2nd i'd rather face a stormraven.
Is it harder to kill..... YES.
Does it carry a Dread.... Yes.
Does it do a lot of damage shooting.....No not really you can optimize it to be a horde killer or a tank hunter but it isn't a hard on 3+ saves as a helldrak tt doesn't have the sheer firepower of a vendetta. Its really at its best against foot hordes

Okay let me get this straight... this community is largely in agreement that the Vendetta is undercosted at 130 points, but cries cheese over a 150 point unit of Sabre Guns that have the same damage output but lose the mobility, hard to hit rule, transport capacity, and the resilience of the Vendetta? Seriously?

Also how is it power gaming to shore up your AA? The chief complaint of this edition has been lack of skyfire units, why should I shun FW for throwing me a bone? I'm very thankful I don't need to use Vendettas anymore to handle air, and so are my regular opponents.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Okay let me get this straight... this community is largely in agreement that the Vendetta is undercosted at 130 points, but cries cheese over a 150 point unit of Sabre Guns that have the same damage output but lose the mobility, hard to hit rule, transport capacity, and the resilience of the Vendetta? Seriously?

Also how is it power gaming to shore up your AA? The chief complaint of this edition has been lack of skyfire units, why should I shun FW for throwing me a bone? I'm very thankful I don't need to use Vendettas anymore to handle air, and so are my regular opponents.

Not true I hate them all. Until my beautiful Nephilims get to playable status.

 buddha wrote:
Are you taking them becuase you have cool FW themed force or are you taking them to win? If the latter I'd say no.

We have a player at our FLGS who has a butload of FW units that we let him use becuase he just wants the cool models on the field (and fields his whole army as FW stuff), and winning is secondary at best. If you're taking the platforms to help shore up your AA because your codex lacks it then no, you're powergaming.

If GW had bothered to provide proper updates for all armies in realtion ot flyers / AA when 6th Ed came oout this would not be an issue.

They also failed to make the FW supplement totally official allowing some players to weasel out of a fairer playing field. Power gamers seem to more in favour of keeping the powerful flyers restricted to thier own little codex............

They now appear to be failing again by bringing out a supplement that apparently does not address the current issues, expand the flyers avaialble to those who actually have them in the fluff rather than those who don't.

And whatever happens it seems Tryanids gets screwed..........

 captain collius wrote:

2nd i'd rather face a stormraven.
Is it harder to kill..... YES.
Does it carry a Dread.... Yes.
Does it do a lot of damage shooting.....No not really you can optimize it to be a horde killer or a tank hunter but it isn't a hard on 3+ saves as a helldrak tt doesn't have the sheer firepower of a vendetta. Its really at its best against foot hordes

I'm confused... are you saying the SR is harder to kill? The Heldrake has a 5++ invulnerability meaning it doesn't even need to Jink, AND it can regen a hull point with a roll of 5+ at the start of the controlling player's turn (if I recall correctly) due to It Will Not Die. The only more survivable part of the Stormraven is the better rear armor, but rarely do I see flyers actually getting hit in the butt.

Now, Stormraven is by no means a bad flyer, but honestly making it more than 200 points seems a bit much, especially considering as codices get updated more and more flakk will find itself in the game. The pure destructive 360-degree annihilating power of the Heldrake at 30 points less is far more out of whack, and then there's of course the 130-point Vendettas. As for Stormraven having transport capacity (though so does Vendetta), it's also a very risky thing to carry passengers - either you risk it being shot down and the passengers getting killed, or "failing" that you need to go to hover mode to actually disembark them - short of risking a destructive scattering deployment and even if surviving not being able to assault that turn - at which point it's a big, fat expensive and easy to kill target. So as a passenger transport the best you can probably hope for is arriving, shooting something, not get killed by AA, disembark passengers next turn, shoot something, and die. But I suppose this goes a bit off topic.

More on topic - I wouldn't really mind if people use FW as the game is in no shape or form balances anyway, but locally no one actually uses FW stuff.