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The list has a few actual BA as physically possible, not that I'm saying that's a bad plan.

But yes, but if the Space Wolves were to have stormravens, there would be no reason to even have the BA at all. Baal predators are not *that* good. You'd just throw all the BA in the dumpster and load those stormravens with space wolves.

steve2112 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Or like rooting for the islanders? Lol

i am from long island and resent that

Lol, be glad you don't have the fisherman's friend on your jersey any more. Go Devils!

A least you guys are marginally better than the rangers this year, not that that's saying much.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm curious too, but curse GW for making my chapter into Space Wolf cast offs, as demonstrated by labmouse's list.

Man, 3 units in an army does not make it cast offs

Seriously, any C:SM, BA, BT, DA list I make today has SW allies. Two squads of grey hunters are just that good.

And when I use my Wolves, I like to take IG allies.

I find that the buffs to 2+ saves makes sanguinary guard an attractive choice as many units can't hurt them anymore. I've run an all jumpers list at low points (not DoA just jetting across the field and beating my opponent's face in). I find that a lot of people play BA like a really hard melee army, this really isn't the case. They are a precision instrument, use their mobility to pick where and when you strike because, as people have said, we are always outnumbered.

 EmilCrane wrote:
I find that the buffs to 2+ saves makes sanguinary guard an attractive choice as many units can't hurt them anymore. I've run an all jumpers list at low points (not DoA just jetting across the field and beating my opponent's face in). I find that a lot of people play BA like a really hard melee army, this really isn't the case. They are a precision instrument, use their mobility to pick where and when you strike because, as people have said, we are always outnumbered.

Sanguinary Guard are odd... they're the same price as an assault squad (not including the Dante-tax of course), and their 2+ save is twice as good as a 3+ one. Their power weapons also make them stand out. However, they are horribly susceptible to bouts of bad luck, although good luck can make them great as well. If you're facing mass AP2 though, they're screwed. In a plasma-heavy meta, I don't think they have what it takes to compete.

Well the sanguinary guard can still die to torrent fire. Or be crippled by it at least. But I still think they are better than DC. Most of the time.

In general I try to make sure they aren't staring down the enemy's guns all the time, with 12" moves you can pretty much move where you like, using the the terrain to your advantage.

I also just like the models so i find excuses to use them. Blood angels were my third army but I always have a lot of fun with them.

Well in theory that's great, but unless the terrain is blocking LOS, it probably won't help. Now if cover stacked with armor, then it would be good.

If jump packs were enough to "make sure they aren't staring down the enemy's guns" then regular assault troops would be amazing and Martel wouldn't be complaining about our codex. For their price, and without the ability to go above 5 men/squad, I cannot imagine using Sanguinary Guard.

When my opponents show up with a ton of terminators, or really anything that makes his model count equal to or less than mine I do a little dance because I know my assault cannons and DC will be enough to win for me. Taking even one Sang Guard unit means that even in those 15% (or whatever) of games I'll STILL be outnumbered, and the opponents troops will be as hard or harder than mine.

When I field sanguinary guard, they are usually chilling behind a razorback or behind a bullet-catcher ASM squad.


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To be fair, lining up the ASM and charging, screaming "For the Emprah!" will win you *some* games. But,unfortunately, there are many lists that will just laugh at this plan.


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You know, going back to the original theme of this post, I'm shocked that no one has mentioned FNP bikes. This leads me to believe that many people posting the "advantages" of the BA needs to play with/against them a bit some more.

The changes to toughness granted through bikes combined with the changes to FNP combined with the changes to bikes themselves are a massive buff, similar to magnitude to the nerfs the rest of the codex took.

So, yes, keeping in the theme of positivism as much as I can, it's not the "blender dreads" or fast transports that really shine. It's the hard-to-kill mobile fire power of bikes and attack bikes. And they even get to use hammer of wrath on a consistent basis, unlike the ASM.

I have had success with BA bikers with a Sanguinary priest on a bike riding along side. Sometime a librarian on a bike joins them. I also like Sanguinary guard more, think of them as a scalpel. I try to eliminate key threats to them before they drop in. DC have their place, I prefer the drop podding bolter DC with one fist. Makes my enemy squirm to know that a bunch of psychotic marines are running behinds their back lines. Someone mentioned it before but I'll say it again, our greatest advantage is choosing where and when we commit our forces and forcing the enemy to react to what we do.

The only problem with that is that their reaction can be to just shoot the closest unit that is going to cause damage, which is what they were going to do anyway if they were a shooting army. If they were an assault army, you just served yourself up to be assaulted.

I like the bikes much better than drop podded anything because they can move wherever they are need throughout the game. Sending stuff in with a drop pod permanently commits those units.

I prefer the sanguinary guard over the DC in a pod for similar reasons. Although in no way are the sanguinary guard as nice as FNP MM attack bikes.

Martel732 wrote:
It's the hard-to-kill mobile fire power of bikes and attack bikes. And they even get to use hammer of wrath on a consistent basis, unlike the ASM.

I've never really liked bikes for close combat, even with HoW, they just seem a bit squishy for their cost. (Except for the DA Black Knights, those are nasty).

I'll admit though, I haven't tried bikes all that much yet. How do you generally run them? 3 MM Attack Bikes in a squad? Or regular bike squads with a few bodies and an attached MM Attack Bike? Obviously with a priest attached as well for either.

Martel732 wrote:
The only problem with that is that their reaction can be to just shoot the closest unit that is going to cause damage, which is what they were going to do anyway if they were a shooting army. If they were an assault army, you just served yourself up to be assaulted.

This assumes that I am presenting DoA or Drop pods into vulnerable positions, I would never drop them where they can be assaulted next turn unless i am sure that I can wipe out any close squad. I recall one time i literally had no good location to droppod my DC in, so I chose the exact center of the enemies front line (a guard player). He panicked shot some units at them, shot at some other units and really didnt do much. I was surprised because I literally had served them up on a plate. Next turn they punched a hole in his LRBT, while the rest of my army was free to manouver as I had planned. He spent the next turn trying to evade the DC and shooting at them with plasma vets, only killed 2. Sometimes the distraction has more weight as it allows you to do other things with the rest of your units.

Fluff wise DC are supposed to die anyway, so as long as they pull their weight for a couple turns I am happy with their perfomance. Back in 2nd ed you could take a DC unit for free (just payed for upgrades) as an accompanyment to a chaplain. If you killed them they were worth 0 points.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only problem with that is that their reaction can be to just shoot the closest unit that is going to cause damage, which is what they were going to do anyway if they were a shooting army. If they were an assault army, you just served yourself up to be assaulted.

This assumes that I am presenting DoA or Drop pods into vulnerable positions, I would never drop them where they can be assaulted next turn unless i am sure that I can wipe out any close squad. I recall one time i literally had no good location to droppod my DC in, so I chose the exact center of the enemies front line (a guard player). He panicked shot some units at them, shot at some other units and really didnt do much. I was surprised because I literally had served them up on a plate. Next turn they punched a hole in his LRBT, while the rest of my army was free to manouver as I had planned. He spent the next turn trying to evade the DC and shooting at them with plasma vets, only killed 2. Sometimes the distraction has more weight as it allows you to do other things with the rest of your units.

Fluff wise DC are supposed to die anyway, so as long as they pull their weight for a couple turns I am happy with their perfomance. Back in 2nd ed you could take a DC unit for free (just payed for upgrades) as an accompanyment to a chaplain. If you killed them they were worth 0 points.

Sooooo much of this don't underestimate the power of distraction, if an opponent is spending time firing at something you know he will fire at , then hes not firing at your other units and if you plan for this you can move up the units you intended to in secret anyways.

Few Points, Don't underestimate the power of DC its been gone over what they get for the points add in a couple Power Swords and a Chaplain or Reclusiarch are a must Re-Rolling failed to hit and wounds on the charge is just a bad bad day for your opponent and they will know it.

Fun things to try just for the look on opposing players face in a fun game Deep strike a Honor Guard with 4 Meltas into their face (expensive at 205 points) but damn if it isnt funny and they will draw a lot of fire giving you a turn to move some stuff up.

Also a Super Fluff List Astorath- and a few squads of DC and a DC Dread some Stormravens .....a few other troops for objective sitting. I run this list for fun and its just hella fun going for broke trying to table your opponent or at least kill his scoring units to put you on even ground. I win more often than you would think playing around like that lol

Final point I think to many players play their list from a static point as in you HAVE to play your list like this or like this, theres a lot of fun in bringing an odd odd list that players dont exactly know how to deal with cause they just havent played a lot against it ....this can cause tactical errors and give you and edge. point blank find a list you think is fun to play win or lose

The BA units cost so much that there is limited utility in what you describe. I just don't see how dropping in stuff to be blown away or preemptively assaulted helps at all. I personally love it when people try to "disrupt" me. They are just piece mealing their force without even realizing it.

At this point, I think Martel has painted himself in a corner. As much as he'd like to win with his Blood Angels, he has to get annihilated to prove that the army sucks. It's gotta be like punching himself in the face...

Anyway, in an effort to add something positive to this thread: I recently played a game with my Necrons against a strong local player and the Space Wolf / IG list that he has plenty of experience wrecking face with. It was an 1850 game, and I'd pulled a few "fun" units off the shelf - most notably a Monolith and C'Tan. Long story short, it was all but over by turn 4, and he was scratching his head a full week later trying to figure out what he could have done differently to avoid the beatdown I'd given him. I'd give you my full list, but you'd hate it...no flyers, only 2 troop choices, and a model count that wouldn't scare anyone. I bring up this story only to say that what people like to drone on about as fact (things like Monoliths and C'tans being horrible choices to field) are rarely the case. If you like a unit in a given army, it's up to YOU to figure out a way to make it work for ya.

Full disclosure, I don't have much experience with Blood Angels as of yet, but I'm building / painting my Blood Angels without fear that I'll figure out a way to be competitive with them. It may take awhile to land on exactly the most efficient / enjoyable list, but I'd suggest examining Blood Angels in a void when trying to find one's way. Worrying about how other codecies may have an edge here or there isn't going to help one improve his/her Blood Angel list.

If used in a nonsense way of course its bad, you have to make situational calls, was playing a large battle and I dropped in a Honor guard squad on a IG player and his tank squad, Popped one which helped. of course he had no choice but to fire at me or im going to pop tanks and his troops behind his lines. 3 tanks and a squad of troops firing later I was dead but all that firing didnt go to units stuck in the open. who made it in close because of that sacrifice. Not always a sound tactic but it works from time to time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think me and you agree Voidwrath sometimes its just funny and fun to bring stuff you dont see often, I also feel it can not always but in a fun setting can give you an advantage. Played a Necron player the other night Brought a list most wouldnt bring by turn two I had astorath with DC a couple PW's and another squad of DC with a pw a stormraven with DC dread and an assault squad with Priest and chaplain in his face........he didnt know what to even do, what do you even fire at!? he just wasnt ready for the list I brought and his list was good I just threw him off his game cause he was too busy figuring out what to do. now of course the list I brought ( there were other things in it as well) has counter measures but he was simply thrown off and I had fun trying to table him

Umm no. I try to build the nastiest stuff I can think of with the BA. When I get advantages on people, I often go for the table if I can. I'm a pretty merciless opponent. I'm just frustrated by the lack of efficacy of the BA.

Most of my victories, however, have been because people are not using their codicies to their utmost and/or making jelloheaded mistakes in the game. Like reserving stuff they shouldn't. Or shooting precious heavy weapons at FNP bikers. My victories are in spite of the codex, not because it's good.

Oh,and trust me, people where I play are not used to BA bikers. But they'll learn soon enough and the back to the "loss" column, I'm sure.


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I also freely admit that BA can easily win 40% of their games. Yes, I think that sucks, but for many people, that's just fine.

Come on Martel, I know you sound like a guy who enjoys a challenge, otherwise you'd be playing Crons. It's not quite all doom and gloom. We can both agree that we've been handicapped by 6th and that BA is not a top tier codex. It certainly is not a bad one though. We still have some solid choices. When I almost beat the top player (he plays cron cheese) in our LGS (he never lost in 5th) it felt good. The only reason I lost was because my ten man terminator squad with attached termie librarian had a deep strike mishap and I rolled a one. 650 ~ points out of a 2K game instantly gone. If they had landed he would have had the spanking of a lifetime. The best part was he knew it, he freely admitted that he needed to change some things in his list and tactics. My list was a very unconventional one for BA and that was what counted. When I played a tournie at the store the player who won (demons flamers army) said my army was the only one that he thought could beat his, due to the deep striking units I had. They could have avoided his flamers of tzeentch and mopped him up. Unfortunately we didn't get to play each other.

Lately I have been considering using my BA as a support element for my IG. I have a collection of very competative IG units that would compliment well some deep striking BA that have the capacity to get in the opponents face while the IG do what they do best, shoot stuff from afar.

I do like a challenge. The IG was nuts in 5th edition as well, but now the Vendetta thing has made that situation more dire. That hasn't changed much. I still lose to IG most of the time.

The two armies that just make me vomit the most are the Space Wolves and CSM, because they are both better BA than the actual BA now. With the other Xenos, at least, the deficiencies aren't as "in your face".

I'm in another conversation elsewhere, where my assertion of the BA being better than the BT and the Sisters is being challenged. I don't honestly see the BT and Sisters much where I play, so I may be wrong. This means that the BA fall to the worst codex in the whole game right now in my ranking system. Which other codicies other than BT or Sisters could you possibly honestly say are worse than the BA?

Martel732 wrote:
Which other codicies other than BT or Sisters could you possibly honestly say are worse than the BA?

Tau
Eldar

I think BA can beat sisters. I have played them once and lost to them by one VP. I have never seen their codex and didn't know about the D6 str 8 ap3 rocket spam they can put out. Had to go against 4 of those. My DC also misshaped that game allowing the opposing player to place them where he chose (in my right corner). They had to slog across the board absorbing 3 turns of rocket spam before getting wiped. If I had knowledge of their codex the battle would have gone differently. As GI Joe once said " now we know; and knowing is half the battle."

Well my metric for whether a codex is better is not a head to head match up, its how they fare vs all possible opponents. (Although the ST 8 AP 3 rocket spam is really bad for BA) Many people here are looking for tailored lists. Building TAC lists is where I feel the BA are very, very poor.

For example, the Eldar can field scatter laser war walkers with pretty good confidence that they will be useful in any matchup. Same for jetbike guardians. Same goes for Seer councils. Now I realize that the Eldar have a *tons* of garbage units. But those can be actively avoided, and the good stuff spammed. Boring, but it can be done.

The BA I feel field many overpriced units that crush face in the right situation and just completely fail in others. ASM, DC, sanguinary guard, I'm looking at you. And these are supposed to be some kind of backbone?

There's nothing even good enough in the BA codex to even spam I feel. So in this way, I can't put them ahead of Eldar. The codex is more well balanced than Eldar, but the Eldar good stuff is better than BA good stuff, because even BA good stuff is overpriced in 6th.

When do you think we are likely to get a new codex? Probably not until at least 2014.

Just out of curiosity what DO you bring in a BA TAC list?

My experience is that bringing AV13 in medium/high quantity is quite good with Blood Angels. My experience is fairly limited, still, but my fortunes with Furiosos and Baals has been very positive. The Raven, as well, is not as efficient as a Vendetta, but I suspect it is the second best flier in the game.

Death Company are supremely killy, but as Martel will likely remind us, there doesn't seem to be a very good way to deliver them. Jump packs nearly double the points/model, drop pods leave them exposed for a turn and slow once they're on the table, land raiders are prohibitively expensive, and the Raven is too many eggs in one basket. They'll be in a drop pod for my next few games, but if that doesn't work well, they might get the axe from my lists.

Still, 3-4 of our AV13 murder machines can wreak havoc on opposing infantry. Leave enough scoring units in safety, bring them out when your foes have been depleted, and I think this book is capable of winning more than 40% of games.

As for a new codex, I doubt we'll see one for at least 2 years. They have to do Deamons, Eldar, Tau, likely Black Templars, and I wouldn't be surprised if they redid IG and/or Ultramarines before ours. Unless they are going to keep to the recently increased schedule, that will take a long while. A new codex would be huge for us (cheaper libby, better captain, buffs to Dante and (I suspect) Sanguinary Guard) but we shouldn't hold our breath.

Easy to cover FNP for a infantry army = Nice
Cheap Devestators
Brother Corbulo
Assault Marines as troops (great objective grabbers and 1d6 scatter with melta is still amazing)
Stormravens
Sanguinary Guard are fun
Mephiston is still a beast

The TAC list that I have had the most success with involves a single ASM squad with all my IC in it. (Other than priests farmed out to spread the FNP love) This gives me challenge soaks and lets the power axes swing. They usually get divination buffs. The rest of the list is basically mech BA from 5th with changes to try to compensate for 6th. Like I actually have a tactical squad now. Of course, its not as good as the vanilla tactical squads and it can't hold the grey hunters' jock straps.

And I have the stormraven and aegis line because fliers happen. And I have been using attack bikes every game because FNP attack bikes rock. And I have been using a lot of plasma-toting regular bikers. T5 w/FNP is a good BA trick. Too bad these units don't score and aren't that competent in HTH.

Ironically this list is weak versus mass assaults, but the large number of 48" guns from BA often throws people off. It takes a turn or so before they realize I'm never coming after them. Obviously good players are not fooled by this and just come kill me because the throw weight of the list is really not that incredible. It can't be that great because the BA overpay for everything now it seems.

AV 13 on the auto/las preds works out pretty well because many players are cheap and don't bring lascannons. AV 13 can suck up a ton of krak missiles. But again, good players have more than krak missiles and can engage at range, leaving the BA outgunned by lists with cheaper price points.

I've tried mass jumper as a TAC list, but quickly decided that auto-losses to Space Wolves and Chaos Demons were not a good feature for a TAC list.

Drop Pods are probably the most feasible method to deliver DC (whereas Land Raiders would be ideal, but too expensive under 2000pts).

Yeah, I've had people do that. I just shoot the crap out of them and then use my ASM squad to assault them. Or the bikes. They die easy under this circumstance. Unless I face mass blast markers, I usually keep my army all bunched up to handle cute stuff like drop pod DC. Even at 20 pts, its still more efficient to shoot DC than ASM goobers in a FNP bubble. I was gonna shoot something, might as well be those guys. And hey look! They're in double tap range!

This whole thing of "distracting" the enemy only works with cheap stuff. 10 DC with some power weapons in a drop pod is in excess of 250 points. That's 1/6 of a 1500 point list. Even that's all I take out on a single turn, 1/6 of the list gone in one turn of a 5-6 turn game is not bad!

That being said, if someone lines up 60 ASM with FNP and just goes for it, my list will probably lose. But he's running the risk of running into Space Wolves or Tyranids and having no options other than being beat down.