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 unmercifulconker wrote:
Oh yeah forgot the Templars always saw the Inquisition as the Health and Safety inspectors. I do think the Grey Knight 'rule' was just for game reasons and fluff was damaged. Emperors gene seed or not and although they may say they are 'pure' Templars believe any psyker (which is true) is open to corruption from the warp because of their connection to it. Thus it is best to stay away from such beings.

Edit: haha never thought of the Astropaths, when their ships travel the warp the Templars must have their bolt pistols aimed at the crews heads whilst giving a middle finger out the windows until they leave the warp

I guess the Storm Troopers accompanying the Black Templars will deal with the Navigators and Astropaths. I can see f.ex. selected commissars being on execution-duty in case any Navigator or Astropath gets possessed in any ship, and likely more in a Black Templar ship.

I figured the Astronomicon are a necessary evil for transportation on the Eternal Crusade. Going to battle with a psyker? Unacceptable.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Dont they hate the Sisters (and vice versa) because they view the Emperor as a god? Dont Templars see this as slight heresy? Sorry I forget.

Nope - not in anything published by GW except the notably flawed Allies table - in fact the only times that the Sisters and BT intereact they do so as strong allies - the BT even have a crusade banner honouring them.

Helsreach has them pretty clearly believers in the Emperor and the Codex strongly implies the same - and it would make sense the way the HH books are going that those Fists that eventually follow the Emperor as a dvine being end up in the Templars.....

To sum it up:

Black Tempalrs are Battle Brothers with Imperial Fists and their successor chapters like Iron Champions, Crimson Fists, Iron Knights, White Templars etc...

They are also on cool terms with Blood Angels and White Scars ( because of the Imperial Palace defense during the Horus Heresy ).

They are also in good terms with Salamanders and Space Wolves because they supported Dorn when Guiliman presented the Codex Astartes.

They totally repect Imperial Guard, and I may say that they are in better relationship with the Guard then any other Astartes Chapter.

The yare on good terms with Sisters of Battle, seeing how both of them hate psykers, start crusades and both of the are religious zealots of the God Emperor ( yes, I believe that Black Templars actually venerate Emperor as a God ).

They are on bad terms with Ultramarines because of the Codex Astartes, but giving their background they should be on good terms with one of their successor chapters - Fire Angels.

They are neutral with Dark Angels because of their secretive nature and because one of their crusading fleet disappeared after meeting with them.

They are on REALLY BAD terms with the Inquisition, because of their legion size that they are trying to hide from them. But occasionally they will work with them ( in "Space Marine" video game they are escorting the Inquisitor ) for the grater good of the Imperium.

As for aliens - they hate all aliens ( especially Eldar ). They despise Chaos because they are all traitors.

All in all that's it. This just shows how allied chart from rulebook is flawed and should not be taken into account when it comes to fluff discussion.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
The relationship with the Grey Knights baffles me, not only because of the filthy psykers, but because they are a wing of the Inquisition and theyre always up in BT's business about roster numbers. Thats another bit of fluff for OP if youre not aware; BT is basically the biggest chapter out there. As the fluff states, if the entire chapter were to come together it would be an "unstoppable force".

It does say in the GK codex that they are completely unknown of except for a select few SM chapter masters, so there isn't really any relationship between the BT and GK

There are worries in the Imperium that the numbers of BT exceed Chapter numbers required in the Codex. Much of the make up of the BT disregards it altogether. The first BT were the elite of the IF split off with Dorn's right hand man, Sigismund, who carried over traditions from pre-heresy, like declaring a champion on the eve of battle as Sigismund was during Horus's attack on Terra. This is all in the Lexicanum. It would be my theory that they see their duty to the Imperium and their role in enforcing His will to be above social bias of getting along with one chapter or another and work with other chapters only because it is mission essential and not essential to be social. The BT superiority complex of being the elite of an entire legion and more extreme than other chapters distances them from other chapters and in many ways makes them more effective than others. Their devote nature also has its drawbacks in tactical practicality, in the way they will spend lives in an almost careless way. I would think that martially, they are more like Space Wolves since the pre-heresy era and their simular duties in that time. The Raven Guard comes close, but unlike them, the Dark Angels, and the Blood Angels, they carry no overbearing guilt or character flaw that they have to be ashamed of other than the Emperor's falling that all the loyal Chapters share. They mirror in purpose and ideal, not deed, our contemporary Knights Templar. Single in purpose to strike down all that would oppose His will and taking stern oaths to ensure His will be done over anything else. They fail to acknowledge the fact that the Emperor was/is psychic and deny a potent weapon to themselves in the belief that the Emperor was simply the greatest man to ever live and by His word shall they live. If push came to shove, they would accept a psychic if it meant that they would complete a mission of grave importance through agents of the Inquisition, since they could not object anyway.

So they tolerate any chapter, so long as it accomplishes the mission and they don't get in the way. Any other chapter would be too small to challenge them at any rate.

Yes? In analogy, I could see them as a combination of religious zelots and Space Marine Special Forces at the same time. Aloof and yet just barely tolerating others.

If you read Helsreach by Aaron Dembski-bowden it remarks Reclusiarch Grimaldus recounting a battle where he fought along side another space marine chapter the shadow wolves and he speaks of them as brothers so i believe they do it's just they arent to keen on a few

 elementofnick wrote:
If you read Helsreach by Aaron Dembski-bowden it remarks Reclusiarch Grimaldus recounting a battle where he fought along side another space marine chapter the shadow wolves and he speaks of them as brothers so i believe they do it's just they arent to keen on a few

Yes, he counted them as brother as he watched the very last of the chapter die. So that chapter isn't around anymore. I think it was a secondary chapter to the space wolves, not THE space wolves.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Nope - not in anything published by GW except the notably flawed Allies table - in fact the only times that the Sisters and BT intereact they do so as strong allies - the BT even have a crusade banner honouring them.

Erm, do you mean the Terran Crusade Banner?

The War on Terra Banner - yeah.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The War on Terra Banner - yeah.

The goal of the Terran crusade was to kill the Ecclesiarch and purge the leadership of the Ministorum. The Ministorum emblem on the banner is no more an honour than the Ork and Tau heads on the Declates & Nimbosa Crusade banners are.

nope the text read thus:

"The Banner honours the other forces that fought to defeatthe treacherous Lord Vandire. "

Remember that the Brides of the Emperor were at the end the ones who actually slew him before retaking their previous name.

Except the Brides of the Emperor never 'fought' to defeat Vandire, Vandire was in their possession - when they turned they simply executed him, no fighting required. Any fighting they did would have been for him. If the Ministorum emblem (not SoB) does honour anyone it would be Ministorum forces of the Confederacy of Light, not the SoB.

It specifically says the Symbol represents the Brides of the Emperor

Again they ended the whole thing having spoken to the Emperor via the Custodes by executing Vandire - "defeating him".

Heres my 2cents,

For psykers/mutants the templars tolerate some mutants (astropaths) because they are necessary for the Eternal Crusade, otherwise travelling without using the warp and communication would take forever.

As for the GKs, I remember reading something about GKs wiping out the memories of anyone who witnesses them in action (guardsmen or marine) so their existence for the most part are just rumours. Although Some chapters have prior knowledge about their existence (Space wolves definitely). So I believe the times that Templars end up working with Grey Knights are during battles with heavy chaos daemon incursions when the GK show up to stop them. Afterwards they probably wipe thr memories of the templars. For all they know they beat the daemons themselves, maybe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And finally, I believe the Templars passes off as elitist when initially met. They might be out right jerks too if you want to call them that, but here's my reasoning why.

They have been on the longest crusade ever, 10000 years of fighting for the Emperor's Will. I would imagine their mindset to be something akin to their unit being deployed overseas for 10000 years without leave, and no visits home. I believe this mindset influences their interactions with others by having a disdain over "non combat essential" actions.

Meaning they recognize and respect anyone who has shown considerable battle/combat ability. E.g. Helsreach by ADB shows (as stated earlier) how Grimaldus glossing over any details about one of the airborne group just because a previous marshall recognizes their ability in combat from a previous battle; and also how They recognize Commisar Yarrick as leader of the Armageddon battle group because of his experience, even though his rank doesnt hold much sway over the templars(and marines).

For the most part what the Templars want to see are results. They will work with anyone (barring non gk psykers) if this leads to victory. If you can show them how ballsy you can be, they dont care if you are a lowly guardsman or a ranking space marine, they will respect you.

Case in point; my favorite Guardsman Andrej from the Helsreach novel. By the end of the book he and Grimaldus have a fairly lighthearted conversation, something not anyone would be comfortable doing with a space marine.

Thats what I love about the Templars, rank and status means all, what counts is experience.

Really need to read Hellsreach, absoloutley adored the sample on BL and cant wait to get it.

One of the best 40k books I have read along with the Gaunts Ghost Novels. If i recall correctly the Salamanders show up and leave the hive. The templars were not too fond of that. They would probably be fond of the Red Templars since they are a successor chapter.

Really torn between the Imperial Fists and the Subjugators, I love the personality of the Subjugators but love the colour scheme of the Fists and I think I would find it boring just painting every marine full green. What is the personality of a typical Imperial Fist, are they stubborn? Would they have Dorn's personality?

The personality of the typical Imperial Fist is that of an unsmiling hard-liner. They care for nothing, not even the glory of battle. They are utterly dedicated and fatalistic. Making one even smirk means you are a comedian extraordinare.

Hmmmm a dedicated hard-ass, I like that

IIRC they also practise severe self chastisement - although as always there is the danger that this can become a crutch or overwhelming need......

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Scorpions#.US7dyKVQHl8

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
The relationship with the Grey Knights baffles me, not only because of the filthy psykers, but because they are a wing of the Inquisition and theyre always up in BT's business about roster numbers.

I would think that for the most part the GK are only interested in destroying daemons and those who might be working with them so unlike the rest of the inquisition the couldn't care less about the nu,ber of the BT seeing as they have no psykers and so are less likely to face problems with daemons coming out of their ranks.

amudkipz wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Scorpions#.US7dyKVQHl8

Wow ok, I have been deciding for a while on what to get for my first Forge World kit and the Red Scorpions sound brutal and the fact that they strongly uphold authority and serve the Emperor above all is the biggest attraction for me, thanks for this mate, however it says they scourn anyone who deviates from the codex which causes slight concern.

Definately keeping the vengeance marines as Imperial Fists but the Red Scorpions sound like a sound start from Forge World.

I'd think they'd get along with any chapter that doesn't have an over abundance or reliance on psykers.

The Black Templars hate any psykers (Apart from the GK) But the Dark Angels top most because of what happened to a missing Black Templar long side their secrets and psykers.

Haha forgot about that DA ordeal, wonder what discussions were had among templars after hearing about it.

So finally getting round to the army, just handed in essay, wallet is ready and good to go going to be ordering more black for the rest of the Templars then some decent yellows and what not for the Imperial fists, as well as a command squad for Dorn.

Thanks for all your help guys, had such a long break, hopefully should get some pics of the two armies in the near future.

Have fun painting those mate. BT and IF will look great side by side.

Even though it's late, I would still like to say that the BT would make excellent allies with the SoB, and it would be very cool to see that reflected in a custom table-top force.

I envision all the sisters in their immolator tanks scouring the battlefield with holy fire and bolter shells, their organs and vox-castors playing hymnals to the Emperor to drown out the wretched screams of the heretics. From the billowing flames come the hulking black silhouettes of the Black Templars, swords in hand to cut down any who resist the purgation of fire.

... or so it goes.

I remember someone having the Black Templars pairing up with the Ultramarines and the Blood Ravens. I wonder how that would go. My advice was simply to boot the Ultramarines out of the equation and add the Imperial Fists instead, as that's the only loophole I see for them to go anywhere near accepting psykers.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I remember someone having the Black Templars pairing up with the Ultramarines and the Blood Ravens. I wonder how that would go. My advice was simply to boot the Ultramarines out of the equation and add the Imperial Fists instead, as that's the only loophole I see for them to go anywhere near accepting psykers.

The Ultramarines might be compatible with BT (considering they are a FF chapter and have not a pure record but one that is far more normal than the Blood Ravens or Dark Angels) but after the whole DOW2