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Or you roll your dice and pick them ll up and re-roll them all again.

 Janthkin wrote:

zamnath wrote:
Actually, I disagree. As per the staff: "The staff allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice once per turn - Declare before you make the re-roll."

The staff essentially gives a daemon player carte blanche to re-roll any single D6 of their choice each player turn. As a re-rolled D6 is still a D6 it seems to me that the rules for the item specifically tell you that you can select it.

That's not significantly different than any other reroll ability. It doesn't specifically address the baseline rule for rerolls (i.e., only one).

I disagree again. The item very clearly states that you can re-roll one D6 of your choosing (i.e., any one D6 without restriction), which, RAW, does contradict the BRB rule stating that re-rolls can't be re-rolled. The staff of tomorrow gives you explicit permission to choose any D6 you want, which means that it gives you explicit permission to choose a D6 that has been re-rolled already. The BRB says that you can't re-roll a re-roll, but the staff of tomorrow says that you can choose a dice which has been re-rolled and that that dice will then be re-rolled. The two rules contradict each other because of this, and, at the moment, at least in my opinion, that means that re-rolls can be re-rolled by Fateweaver's item because of the points I brought up earlier. I can't foresee this trick lasting long, however. Games Workshop's bound to smack this down in the FAQ.

Fleet lets you reroll one or more dice. Jump infantry can reroll dice when they charge. Poison lets you reroll to wound at times. Preferred enemy lets you reroll at times. Twin-linking lets you reroll at times. Mastercrafting lets you reroll at times. Hatred lets you reroll at times. Fortune, Prescience, The Swarmlord - LOTS of things in the game let you reroll one (or more) dice at your option.

Some of these abilities can stack. NONE of them give you explicit permission to violate the basic rules for rerolling. Why would this be different?

In my reading it's that "of your choice" part of the item description. This is the first rule that I'm aware of that gives you the ability to specifically target your re-rolls, and it is also written in such a way as to allow for any D6 to be chosen. In other cases, such as a BS 7 model equipped with a re-roll conferred elsewhere, you have two re-rolls which don't stack because the description in the book of the BS6, etc. states that they do not and points to the rule forbidding re-rolls of re-rolls. In the case of the Staff of Tomorrow, you are able to specifically pick out the re-rolls themselves. There is a rule in the BRB that states you cannot re-roll a re-roll, and precedent for the forbidding of such, but Staff of Tomorrow allows for an unprecedented sort of re-roll and is part of a unit that has been completely altered from its initial form, so we can't just look back at a previous incarnation to guide us.

I'll admit to not knowing every codex out there, though, and so a precedent could have been set. Has there ever been an item or ability that allows you to specifically target D6s with no restriction for re-rolls?

Zamnath - given it "specifically" lets you target already rerolled dice, you can provide the text that specifically states you may reroll a reroll?
Because otherwise the rule in the BRB wins out.

zamnath wrote:
In my reading it's that "of your choice" part of the item description. This is the first rule that I'm aware of that gives you the ability to specifically target your re-rolls, and it is also written in such a way as to allow for any D6 to be chosen. In other cases, such as a BS 7 model equipped with a re-roll conferred elsewhere, you have two re-rolls which don't stack because the description in the book of the BS6, etc. states that they do not and points to the rule forbidding re-rolls of re-rolls. In the case of the Staff of Tomorrow, you are able to specifically pick out the re-rolls themselves. There is a rule in the BRB that states you cannot re-roll a re-roll, and precedent for the forbidding of such, but Staff of Tomorrow allows for an unprecedented sort of re-roll and is part of a unit that has been completely altered from its initial form, so we can't just look back at a previous incarnation to guide us.

I'll admit to not knowing every codex out there, though, and so a precedent could have been set. Has there ever been an item or ability that allows you to specifically target D6s with no restriction for re-rolls?

Necron Chrono has similar wording.

If it's player turn, does that mean you can re-roll one of your dice if you're in combat during your opponent's turn?

Yes, because turn == player turn unless otherwise specified

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Zamnath - given it "specifically" lets you target already rerolled dice, you can provide the text that specifically states you may reroll a reroll?
Because otherwise the rule in the BRB wins out.

"The staff allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice once per turn."

The staff allows you to pick any D6, which could possibly include re-rolled D6s.

That said, Rigeld mentioned that the Necron have a similar thing? Was it ruled that you couldn't use it to re-roll re-rolls? I would assume so, which would provide enough of a precedent that I wouldn't try to use the re-roll on an already re-rolled dice, myself, but I'd be curious to hear what the Necron ability does.

The BRB says you cannot re-roll a re-roll. Unless you have specific permission to re-roll a re-roll in there you cannot do it.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The BRB says you cannot re-roll a re-roll. Unless you have specific permission to re-roll a re-roll in there you cannot do it.

And in most of these cases, it says something different that reroll.
For instance, the section regarding rolling for psyker powers states that for a Mastery Lv 1 psyker, you should "keep rolling" until you get a single-charge ability.

Zamnath - you dont understand the word "specific" then.

Nowhere in the rule does it SPECIFICALLY state it can reroll a reroll, ergo there is no conflict and so the codex loses out

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Zamnath - you dont understand the word "specific" then.

Nowhere in the rule does it SPECIFICALLY state it can reroll a reroll, ergo there is no conflict and so the codex loses out

Exactly. It would have to state something other than the specific term "reroll."
For instance, a variation on the rule intended to circumvent the BRB reroll reroll rule would read something like: "The staff allows you to choose any single D6 per turn and roll an additional die, using the new result in lieu of the original - declare before you make the re-roll."
Though they'd find a more eloquent way to put it.

EDIT: Of course they could always just throw in "This can affect a D6 that has already been rerolled." to the same effect.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Or you roll your dice and pick them ll up and re-roll them all again.

Or you roll once and dont get any rerolls.

Whats the point of rolling the first time if NONE of it matters?

Tyrs13 wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Or you roll your dice and pick them ll up and re-roll them all again.

Or you roll once and dont get any rerolls.

Whats the point of rolling the first time if NONE of it matters?

Pure rules compliance. When it's come up (e.g., The Swarmlord vs. a Fortuned invulnerable save), my opponent and I usually agree to just roll once.

 Janthkin wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Or you roll your dice and pick them ll up and re-roll them all again.

Or you roll once and dont get any rerolls.

Whats the point of rolling the first time if NONE of it matters?

Pure rules compliance. When it's come up (e.g., The Swarmlord vs. a Fortuned invulnerable save), my opponent and I usually agree to just roll once.

Yeah. You have to announce that you're cancelling them before rolling. Otherwise it gives the impression you would have done the re-rolls if the result had been different.

So much need for a FAQ @_@

Tyrs13 wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Or you roll your dice and pick them ll up and re-roll them all again.

Or you roll once and dont get any rerolls.

Whats the point of rolling the first time if NONE of it matters?

It reminds you that you have already used up any ability to reroll those dice. It is entirely possible to have rerolls from many sources, hence the no rerolling a reroll rule in the first place