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In the new daemons codex, Fateweaver has an artefact called the staff of tomorrow.

The book says "The staff allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice once per turn - declare before you make the re-roll."

I have two questions on this:

1. This seems intended, but I have to declare which dice I want to re-roll before I roll it for the first time, right? Technically it just says I need to declare it before I make the re-roll, not the original roll. But I realize RAI it probably means to declare before the original roll.

2. It doesn't state anywhere that the dice re-rolled must be from one of Fateweaver's abilities. This might have been intended to be used only on his abilities/things that affect him, but I think RAW it is fairly clear that the dice is any D6 of your choice once per turn.

1. No, you only have to declare that you're re-rolling. so, for example, you roll Kairos' 4++ save. You roll a 2. NOW declare that you're going to re-roll that.
The declaration is so that your opponent knows you're not cheating, and to remind both of you that you use it. You do not have to say, "If I fail this roll, I'm going to use the Staff." You just fail a roll, and then say, "I'm going to use the Staff."

2. There's no reason to think that Kairos' ability would only effect him. His re-roll can affect anything on the table that you roll. Charge distance, Armour Pen roll, failed save, failed To Wound.

New question: the re-roll is "once per turn" (ie. player turn), and doesn't specify that it has to be one of your dice: "a single D6 of your choice." Can this be an Armour Pen AGAINST one of your own vehicles? Or Imotekh's Night Fighting roll? Or a CSM roll on the Boon table?

Elric Greywolf wrote:
1. No, you only have to declare that you're re-rolling. so, for example, you roll Kairos' 4++ save. You roll a 2. NOW declare that you're going to re-roll that.
The declaration is so that your opponent knows you're not cheating, and to remind both of you that you use it. You do not have to say, "If I fail this roll, I'm going to use the Staff." You just fail a roll, and then say, "I'm going to use the Staff."

2. There's no reason to think that Kairos' ability would only effect him. His re-roll can affect anything on the table that you roll. Charge distance, Armour Pen roll, failed save, failed To Wound.

New question: the re-roll is "once per turn" (ie. player turn), and doesn't specify that it has to be one of your dice: "a single D6 of your choice." Can this be an Armour Pen AGAINST one of your own vehicles? Or Imotekh's Night Fighting roll? Or a CSM roll on the Boon table?

From the first quote of the rule, it says you can re roll, as you are not rolling the first die, I dont see how you can re roll it.

1) As above.

2) He can reroll ANY dice. ANY dice.

You cannot reroll a dice you didnt rol in the first place, so no to rerolling an opponents dice

A die is rolled. YOU can re-roll it.

There's nothing inherent in the compound word "re-roll" that implies you did the original rolling.

The rule does not say, "The staff allows you to re-roll one of your D6 rolls." It says, "The staff allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice."

It is Kairos' choice, with no limitations. Why couldn't he choose an enemy's die? He has permission to choose "a single D6." Both players have D6's, thus any D6 can be chosen.

You can't re-roll a roll that wasn't yours in the first place.

rigeld2 wrote:
You can't re-roll a roll that wasn't yours in the first place.

page #?

BRB p5 says, "pick up the dice you wish to re-roll and roll it again." But it still doesn't specify this has to be your roll.

Note: I know this is silly. But I also foresee some Daemon player in the future trying to pull this against me (I play Daemons, but don't use Kairos). So I have to have a good defence against it.

You going to pick up the dice your opponent rolled and roll it for him?,

The staff allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice once per turn - declare before you make the re-roll.

You make the re roll.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
1. No, you only have to declare that you're re-rolling. so, for example, you roll Kairos' 4++ save. You roll a 2. NOW declare that you're going to re-roll that.
The declaration is so that your opponent knows you're not cheating, and to remind both of you that you use it. You do not have to say, "If I fail this roll, I'm going to use the Staff." You just fail a roll, and then say, "I'm going to use the Staff."

2. There's no reason to think that Kairos' ability would only effect him. His re-roll can affect anything on the table that you roll. Charge distance, Armour Pen roll, failed save, failed To Wound.

New question: the re-roll is "once per turn" (ie. player turn), and doesn't specify that it has to be one of your dice: "a single D6 of your choice." Can this be an Armour Pen AGAINST one of your own vehicles? Or Imotekh's Night Fighting roll? Or a CSM roll on the Boon table?

Are you sure that it's once per player turn and not once per game turn? Once per player turn makes this power much nastier than I thought it was.

Also, what are peoples' opinions about re-rolling a re-roll with Kairos's item? I realize the BRB states you can't reroll a reroll, but Kairos's item states that any one dice of your choice can be re-rolled. Since 40k is a permissive system (things that say you CAN do something generally trump those that say you can't), and codexes are generally considered to trump the rulebook, I think that a strong argument can be made that Kairos enables the demon player to re-roll a dice that has already been re-rolled. If this is the case, his ability to control the warpstorm table is extremely potent, as you can essentially roll 4 dice hoping for a 6, then if you get one (and don't have a result you want), you can re-roll one of the initial rolls or re-roll one of the re-rolls to gain access to a dice roll that at worst does nothing and at best (50% chance if enemy has psykers) does something incredibly nasty for your army.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You can't re-roll a roll that wasn't yours in the first place.

page #?

BRB p5 says, "pick up the dice you wish to re-roll and roll it again." But it still doesn't specify this has to be your roll.

Note: I know this is silly. But I also foresee some Daemon player in the future trying to pull this against me (I play Daemons, but don't use Kairos). So I have to have a good defence against it.

The quoted Fateweaver rule says that you can re-roll a single die.
For you to re-roll something, it must have been you rolling it in the first place.
The context of the roll doesn't change (your opponent is rolling to wound so you can't re-roll to wound).

MarkyMark wrote:
You going to pick up the dice your opponent rolled and roll it for him?,

Yep. Why not?

You make the re roll.

This is what I've been saying--YOU make the re-roll. I still can't find a rule that says you can only re-roll dice that you originally rolled. A rare, perhaps unprecedented situation? Sure. But what's the RAW?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
For you to re-roll something, it must have been you rolling it in the first place.

Where does it say this in the BRB?

Where are you allowed to roll to wound your own model?
That's what you're attempting to do.

rigeld2 wrote:
Where are you allowed to roll to wound your own model?
That's what you're attempting to do.

Alright, THAT is a good counter to this silly argument.

Thank you, Dakka, for your collective brain power. And thank you Rigeld, in particular, for channeling this wisdom.

So we have established you can re-roll any dice, and you don't need to declare it before the original roll.

More questions:

1. As Zamnath said above, is it possible to re-roll a re-roll? I thinking this is a no, it is very explicit in the BRB about multiple re-rolls, but its still good to hear opinions on this.

2. I don't have my rule book handy. Can anyone clarify if once per turn means player turn or game turn?

staticchange wrote:
So we have established you can re-roll any dice, and you don't need to declare it before the original roll.

More questions:

1. As Zamnath said above, is it possible to re-roll a re-roll? I thinking this is a no, it is very explicit in the BRB about multiple re-rolls, but its still good to hear opinions on this.

The rules on rerolls are very clear - you aren't allowed to reroll a die more than once. Nothing in Staff of Tomorrow suggests that it would change that rule.

2. I don't have my rule book handy. Can anyone clarify if once per turn means player turn or game turn?

"Turn" always means "player turn." "Game turn" is a separate term.

It sounds to me like Fateweaver is actually much stronger than he used to be, but just in different ways.

With the Grimoire of True Names on a herald and the ability to re-roll any dice, Fateweaver has a really good chance of giving himself a 2+ invulnerable. Since he gets to reroll 1's anyway, and he now has 5 wounds, this is pretty sick.
The other 2/3rds of the time that the Grimoire doesn't fail, he can use his reroll to help ensure his psychic powers go off as expected, especially against eldar. When he already has a 2+ re-roll, he can use this in the opponents turn to buff a friendly unit. I can see this being especially powerful with CSM allies who take terminators, as they don't fail saves often in the first place, so getting to reroll a single failed terminator save is still a big deal.

Between this power, the points drop, the awesome warlord trait, and 8 known psychic powers, I think Fateweaver and a herald with Grimoire will be auto-include for me in all of my lists. Which is great because Fateweaver was always my favorite model anyway.

Is his ability worded to allow him to re-roll part of a 2d6 roll?
I don't have the codex so can't look.

rigeld2 wrote:
Is his ability worded to allow him to re-roll part of a 2d6 roll?
I don't have the codex so can't look.

Yes, there is another sentence under it that says he can reroll a single dice from a set of 2d6 or 3d6 dice if he wants, but not all of them. I didn't want to quote too much as I figured there are forum rules about posting rules online, and the rest wasn't relevant to the parts I was curious about.

I know this is a 40k forum, but Kairos's ability is the same as WFB in 40K now, and it didn't change at all in the new WFB Army Book. In WFB you have always been able to re-roll a single D6, even something your opponent rolled. Also it is per player turn same as WFB. Actually everything about Kairos in the new 40K dex is exactly the same as he is in WFB.

But the surrounding rules aren't... meaning that assumptions based on those rules are inherently flawed.

 Janthkin wrote:

staticchange wrote:
So we have established you can re-roll any dice, and you don't need to declare it before the original roll.

More questions:

1. As Zamnath said above, is it possible to re-roll a re-roll? I thinking this is a no, it is very explicit in the BRB about multiple re-rolls, but its still good to hear opinions on this.

The rules on rerolls are very clear - you aren't allowed to reroll a die more than once. Nothing in Staff of Tomorrow suggests that it would change that rule.

2. I don't have my rule book handy. Can anyone clarify if once per turn means player turn or game turn?

"Turn" always means "player turn." "Game turn" is a separate term.

Actually, I disagree. As per the staff: "The staff allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice once per turn - Declare before you make the re-roll."

The staff essentially gives a daemon player carte blanche to re-roll any single D6 of their choice each player turn. As a re-rolled D6 is still a D6 it seems to me that the rules for the item specifically tell you that you can select it.

That said, I really wish they had just said if you could do this or not in the rules themselves, and I hope they FAQ it.

You cannot re-roll something you didnt roll int he first place.

zamnath wrote:
Actually, I disagree. As per the staff: "The staff allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice once per turn - Declare before you make the re-roll."

The staff essentially gives a daemon player carte blanche to re-roll any single D6 of their choice each player turn. As a re-rolled D6 is still a D6 it seems to me that the rules for the item specifically tell you that you can select it.

That's not significantly different than any other reroll ability. It doesn't specifically address the baseline rule for rerolls (i.e., only one).

I had a problem today when faced with his ability. It was my turn and i fortuned up my halie-star and shadowfield, can Kairos make me re-roll my re-roll, or does he cancel it out or what?

I remember seeing somewhere that the person whos turn it is can choose what happens when two things contridict each other (which i find stupid, how is the result different from 1 turn to the next?) so does that mean i can say no, or even be a douche and say you declared so you carnt use it again that turn. And in his turn he cn make me re-roll my save?

I think i remember some where if you get to re-roll a failed test and your opponent makes you roll a successful test, they cancel each other out.

There's a bit of a debate right now regarding if someone can make you reroll a dice with this ability, but I would say RAI they can't.

staticchange wrote:
There's a bit of a debate right now regarding if someone can make you reroll a dice with this ability, but I would say RAI they can't.

I'm not sure how you justify that what you think is intended is valid. Sure seems to me that what was intended is that yes, Fateweaver can absolutely force you to reroll a reroll. Why not? You roll and fail. You use some ability to roll and pass. Fateweaver being the farsighted barrel of fun that it is snatches the victorious roll out of your hands by causing you to do it again. Declaring that, as always, fate is a powerful foe. Point is the fluff around this character would suggest that what's RAW is absolutely what was intended in a very "cinematic" way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyrs13 wrote:
I think i remember some where if you get to re-roll a failed test and your opponent makes you roll a successful test, they cancel each other out.

That doesn't make sense. If they cancel each other out then it's as if you never rolled to begin with completely nuking the reason for the opponent forcing you to do it again.

clively wrote:
Fateweaver can absolutely force you to reroll a reroll. Why not?

Well, because of this little rule, which you seem to be forgetting:

BRB p5: "No single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll."

No re-rolling re-rolls.

Oh God this thread gives me a headache.

Seriously, olls are pretty clear cut in 6th edition. read the BRB.

clively wrote:

staticchange wrote:
There's a bit of a debate right now regarding if someone can make you reroll a dice with this ability, but I would say RAI they can't.

I'm not sure how you justify that what you think is intended is valid. Sure seems to me that what was intended is that yes, Fateweaver can absolutely force you to reroll a reroll. Why not? You roll and fail. You use some ability to roll and pass. Fateweaver being the farsighted barrel of fun that it is snatches the victorious roll out of your hands by causing you to do it again. Declaring that, as always, fate is a powerful foe. Point is the fluff around this character would suggest that what's RAW is absolutely what was intended in a very "cinematic" way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyrs13 wrote:
I think i remember some where if you get to re-roll a failed test and your opponent makes you roll a successful test, they cancel each other out.

That doesn't make sense. If they cancel each other out then it's as if you never rolled to begin with completely nuking the reason for the opponent forcing you to do it again.

Of course it does, I have null zone up near a fourtuned eldar unit, they can re roll saves, if I make them take 6 invul saves they can re roll failed saves, null zone says to re roll invul saves, so you think they should re roll the failed save then re roll again if it was passed?, it cancels each other out so only one roll is made