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 Flinty wrote:

easysauce wrote:

attacking from reserves, is definetly not RAW, and it is very different from attacking with no LOS, which is also not RAW (but obviously is RAI)

At no time is the model making the vetor strike attacking from reserves. The hits are generated during the model's movement and merely resolved at the end of the movement phase.

Not true. Page 43 says the hits are not rolled until the end of the movement phase. The unit isn't even nominated until the end of the movement phase.

But you choose a unit you moved over, so the hit generation is effectively back-dated.

 Flinty wrote:
But you choose a unit you moved over, so the hit generation is effectively back-dated.

No, not at all. The unit is nominated at the end of the phase, the hits are generated after nominating the unit, and wounds are converted from hits after that.

There's a pretty clear order of operations here and none of it happens while the Striker is on the table.

And none of it is affected by the unit being in reserves at the start or end of its move.

FYI, shooting attacks require LOS, in fact, so do CC attacks


BRB pg 8 middle left

a model normally needs line of sight whenever it wishes to attack an enemy, weather with powersword, gun, or psychic power.

and assault attacks, as per pg 22 BRB

in close combat, both players models fight. Attacks in close combat work like shots in shooting

movement phase starts,
FMC/drake is moved, over a unit, and into reserves.
opponent finishes moving.
end of phase, drake is already off the table in ongoing reserves,

and nominates a unit it wishes to attack,

this unit now, in addition to being out of LOS, is being attacked by something in reserves.


where are you given permission to attack from reserves with the FMC/helldrake?

flyers rules even go on to say pg 82

the flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters ongoing reserves"

so it has left combat airspace, but even after the fact gets to engage in combat?

in a permissive ruleset, you need permission to do something contrary to the standard procedure, where is the rule granting helldrake permission to attack from reserves?

the only rules under reserves are for arriving from them, not attacking from them,

therefor barring express permission, not assumed permission, no attacks may be made with units in reserve.

helldrake has the same permission every other unit in the game has to attack from reserves (ie none)

please, quote me a rule that says "x may attack from reserves"

or quote me a rule stating that after something has entered reserves, it is allowed to do anything save arrive from reserves in the appropriate manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
And none of it is affected by the unit being in reserves at the start or end of its move.

care to back that up with a rule?

thats a pretty big assumption that models can use special rules from reserve, they cannot cast powers, make attacks, make moves, or do anything from reserves, all we can do is arrive via appropriate method. the model has moved over the unit, it cannot however use special rules, make attacks, move, change flight modes ect from reserve



here are the actual written rules on ongoing reserves

pg 125 brb

if a unit enters ongoing reserves part way through the game, such as a flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering ongoing reserves. Units in ongoing reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for reserves.

units in reserves are not in play,

FMC's/drakes enter ongoing reserves, and are removed from play, prior to using vector strike.

nothing has been quoted giving anything, let alone FMC/drakes permission to do anything except arrive from reserves, there are no rules allowing attacks(of any kind) from reserves

Vector strike is a special rule and therefore by definition not normal. Shooting rules explicitly require line of sight, CC attacks implicitly require line of sight through the who can fight rules, base contact, etc.

The permission is simply the vector strike rule, which js a soecial ruke and therefore works somewhat aside from the normal rules. Is it the end of the movement phase? Did your vector striking unit pass over an enemy unit? If the answer to both is yes, then permission is given to assign hits, which are then assigned randomly in accordance with the faq.

Damnit. Need to catch a train... back tomorrow

Does Vector Strike allocate from a Wound Pool?
What does Out of Sight say with respect the to Wound Pool?

your reasoning that vector strike is "special rule" that trumps normal ones, doesnt cut it, "Reserves" is also a special rule, and is applied FIRST. it is only removed once the model re enters play.

when a unit is in reserves, the reserves special rule applies to it, BEFORE it is able to use its vector strike special rule,

reserves special rule states the model is out of play, and may only "arrive" from reserves using the appropriate method (not attack)

vector strike would need to give permission to use it after the model has left play/entered reserves



so again, quote the rule gives you permission to
A:ignore the special reserves rule, that is on the model, BEFORE the vector strike rule is used
B:ignore that Reserves doesnt allow for attacking from reserves


I have quoted actual rules, and the actual order of them,

drake moves off the table, the "Reserves" rule is applied first, and vector strike does not say it ignored this special rule (as in the case of say, deepstrike mentions it modifies the normal reserves rule) so it has no permission to be used in the first place,

its not that the rule doesnt say you can strike a unit you flew over,

its that you cannot use the special rule in the first place, since you are in reserves before the rule is used.

if you are vector striking while the special rules for reserves are in place, you are breaking the RESERVES special rule, which does specifically overide the model being able to perform any action other then arriving later on


while its not my core reason, it is noteworthy that
FMC are also prohibited from changing flight modes in reserve,

because they are "too busy trying to get back on the battle field"

so if you need fluff to explain why it doesn't work, well that unit has to not only fly across the board, but out of combat airspace, and back, its far too busy to change flight modes, so it must be far too busy to stop and maul some guys, after it already left combat airspace.



thats in addition to the special rule for "reserves" being applied first, and that it does not allow models to use attacks, or special rules(other then deepstrike, outflank ect), from reserves.

Look easysauce, the question of how vector striking happens when a model moves off the board has no bearing on making the strike.
The player has permission to assign the hits to the unit that the flyer flew over. The only question is does this attack require los.

There are effects that cause wounds that do not populate wound pools, Gets hot and perils spring to mind. The los restriction only occurs if there is a wound pool. Wounds causes by shooting at buildings requires neither a pool, los or the normal allocation rules. Mysterious forests break the normal allocation rules too.

Since by the wording it's random allocation of hits rather than wounds where is the need for los? It doesn't seem to be following the shooting rules at all.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Look easysauce, the question of how vector striking happens when a model moves off the board has no bearing on making the strike.
The player has permission to assign the hits to the unit that the flyer flew over. The only question is does this attack require los.

There are effects that cause wounds that do not populate wound pools, Gets hot and perils spring to mind. The los restriction only occurs if there is a wound pool. Wounds causes by shooting at buildings requires neither a pool, los or the normal allocation rules.

Since by the wording it's random allocation of hits rather than wounds where is the need for los? It doesn't seem to be following the shooting rules at all.

The random allocation rules require a wound pool.
Since the random allocation rules require a wound pool, vector strike must populate the wound pool.

What does out of sight do?

Is it random allocation of hits? Because that doesn't populate a wound pool.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Look easysauce, the question of how vector striking happens when a model moves off the board has no bearing on making the strike.
The player has permission to assign the hits to the unit that the flyer flew over. The only question is does this attack require los.

the player only gains permission to assign hits from the vector strike special rule, after that special rule is triggered at the END of the movement phase.

since the VS special rule is triggered AFTER the reserves special rule is triggered, the reserves rule must be applied first,

reserves does not allow for use of special rules, outside of deepstrike, outflank, let alone for off the table hit/wound allocation,


you cannot ignore the fact that the model enters reserves, and is affected by the reserves special rule, before the end of the movement phase.

making the strike is 100% dependent on the model being allowed to use the special rule vector strike rule in the first place, and models that are in reserve dont get to use special rules (save rules specifically saying they apply to reserves, deepstrike ect)

you need to prove you can use the special rule "vector strike" from reserves, because reserves rules are quiet clear, you only get to arrive from them, not attack, hit, wound, cast powers, ect

that vector strike says to nominate a model you flew over, that means NOTHING if you cannot use the skill from reserves in the first place

its like complaining that you get a FnP save after an ID wound,

one special rule cancels the other out,

since you cannot use a models special rules from reserve, and the FMC/drake is in reserve before it uses its special rule "vector strike" , then you dont get to use it,

so plan your flight routs and dont enter reserves if you want to use special rules that are not allowed to be used in reserves

I only see restrictions on special rules that happen at the start of the turn that a unit enters play. Nothing about rules when a model enters ongoing reserves.
Page number please to this rule I am missing.

flyers rules even go on to say pg 82

it is quite likely that a flyer making a zoom move will leave the board, either dliberatly, or by accident. if this happens the flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters ongoing reserves"

pg 125

units in ongoing reserves always re-enter play at the start of their controlling players next turn.

the model is out of play while in reserve,
even so much as they count as DEAD if the game ends as such
they are unable to perform any action that is not a form of arriving from reserves, while they are in reserves, if you disagree with this, quote the rule saying you can attack, or cast precognition, or do anything aside from "arrive" from reserves

pg125 only has rules for arriving from reserves, it does not have rules for attacking from reserves

pg 125 BRB

unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserves.

restrictions on actions in this rule show that they apply not only to units while in reserve,

for at the start of the turn where they arrive, they are still in reseve
but GW goes further and places these restrictions on on the turn they arrive.

all a unit in reserves lets you do, is roll for reserves, (or in ongoing reserves you are given permission to arrive automatically next turn, thats it, nothing more.)

end of story,

you are given slightly more permissions for a unit when it arrives from reserves,

you are only given permission to MOVE because arriving from reserves allows it, not from the movement rules on earlier pages
you are not allowed to assault
and spells out the exact details for how you move on from reserves,


why do you contend that the normal movement, shooting, special rules and other actions do apply to models already in reserve?

If you absolutely must have LOS to allocate wounds for vector strike, make sure your reserves are in view of the board edge, problem solved.

easysauce wrote:
flyers rules even go on to say pg 82

it is quite likely that a flyer making a zoom move will leave the board, either dliberatly, or by accident. if this happens the flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters ongoing reserves"

pg 125

units in ongoing reserves always re-enter play at the start of their controlling players next turn.

the model is out of play while in reserve,
even so much as they count as DEAD if the game ends as such
they are unable to perform any action that is not a form of arriving from reserves, while they are in reserves, if you disagree with this, quote the rule saying you can attack, or cast precognition, or do anything aside from "arrive" from reserves

pg125 only has rules for arriving from reserves, it does not have rules for attacking from reserves

pg 125 BRB

unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserves.

You've created a straw man and while he has a lovely tailored suit you've still got a straw man.
None of that answers my question, where is the specific restriction on a special ability of a unit exiting the board and entering ongoing reserves?
The model isn't arriving from reserves, the requirements for vector strike are already met where is the roadblock?


I can cast a malediction and go off the board with my flying daemon prince, does the malediction go away?
If an FMC is killed by the shots from Corteaz the turn it arrives from reserves what stops you allocating the hits to a unit it moved over?
Just because the unit that caused the hits is no longer on the board doesn't magically remove them. The rule was fulfilled and the hits must be allocated.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is it random allocation of hits? Because that doesn't populate a wound pool.

No, it's the random allocation method of allocating wounds. Wounds are not hits. So the wound pool is populated and...

I can cast a malediction and go off the board with my flying daemon prince, does the malediction go away?
If an FMC is killed by the shots from Corteaz the turn it arrives from reserves what stops you allocating the hits to a unit it moved over?
Just because the unit that caused the hits is no longer on the board doesn't magically remove them. The rule was fulfilled and the hits must be allocated.

yes you can cast a malediction and THEN move off the board,

can you move off the board, THEN cast a malediction?

no? why? psykers can cast powers right, and my psyker in reserves must have los to himself right?

because ongoing reserves doesnt allow you to do anything but arrive automatically next turn, otherwise we could cast some powers while in reserve, but we cannot.

can you move on to the board with a drake and use a special rule,
yes

can you move off the board and enter reserves and arrive automatically next turn?

yes, because ongoing reserves says you can,

you are not given permission to perform any other action or special rule when you enter ongoing reserves, you are only allowed to arrive next turn

quote the rule that says you allows you to do anything other then roll for reserves, or arrive automatically from ongoing reserves,

those are the ONLY actions allowed while in reserves, quote where permission to used weapons, special rules, move while IN reserves

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is it random allocation of hits? Because that doesn't populate a wound pool.

No, it's the random allocation method of allocating wounds. Wounds are not hits. So the wound pool is populated and...

Well if it is populating a wound pool that's fine. I'd buy that, the wording looks a bit more like it's the allocation of hits but it wouldn't be the first time GW mess up an FAQ with poor writing.

@easysauce. Take a chill pill. You want me to provide permission to carry out an action from reserves but there was permission for the strike to occur when it moved.
How it ended it's movement phase doesn't matter. If coteaz blew it apart or if it ends up in reserves that doesn't change the fact that a model with vector strike moved over the unit while in swooping mode.

easysauce wrote:

I can cast a malediction and go off the board with my flying daemon prince, does the malediction go away?
If an FMC is killed by the shots from Corteaz the turn it arrives from reserves what stops you allocating the hits to a unit it moved over?
Just because the unit that caused the hits is no longer on the board doesn't magically remove them. The rule was fulfilled and the hits must be allocated.

yes you can cast a malediction and THEN move off the board,

can you move off the board, THEN cast a malediction?

no? why? psykers can cast powers right, and my psyker in reserves must have los to himself right?

because ongoing reserves doesnt allow you to do anything but arrive automatically next turn, otherwise we could cast some powers while in reserve, but we cannot.

can you move on to the board with a drake and use a special rule,
yes

can you move off the board and enter reserves and arrive automatically next turn?

yes, because ongoing reserves says you can,

you are not given permission to perform any other action or special rule when you enter ongoing reserves, you are only allowed to arrive next turn

quote the rule that says you allows you to do anything other then roll for reserves, or arrive automatically from ongoing reserves,

those are the ONLY actions allowed while in reserves, quote where permission to used weapons, special rules, move while IN reserves

Except the trigger of the Vector Strike happens while the Helldrake is on the table(it moved over an enemy model/unit)

The trigger is all that is needed to cause the rule to occur.

Vector Strike occurs.
Hits are generated.
Wound pool is populated.

What happens when a wound pool is populated but no line of sight can be drawn?

rigeld2 wrote:
Vector Strike occurs.
Hits are generated.
Wound pool is populated.

What happens when a wound pool is populated but no line of sight can be drawn?

Ah but that is different to the vector strike cannot occur. That just means the wounds in the wound pool are discarded.

Similarly, I can scatter my shots all over the board and hit units out of LOS, the wound pool is populated but that is where it ends.

rigeld2 wrote:
Vector Strike occurs.
Hits are generated.
Wound pool is populated.

What happens when a wound pool is populated but no line of sight can be drawn?

Normally they are discarded as you need LoS to allocate, however Vector Strike uses random allocation. Which bypasses the LoS requirement.

let me put it this way,

turn one,

what actions can the unit IN reserves perform on turn one?

nothing, no special rules, moves assaults, attacks ect,

no permission is given to roll untill turn 2

what actions can be performed in reserves turn 2+?

you get to roll to come on, besides that, nothing

what actions can be performs when a unit enters ongoing reserves?

pg 125 only states
you can arrive automatically next turn, again no permission given to move, assault, use special rules ect.


since the FMC/drake has already entered ongoing reserves before its special rule has triggered, it has no permision to use that special rule.

other wise you are saying "i get to move over the unit and VS them because I get to move over the unit and VS them"

despite the model having entered ongoing reserves, PRIOR to the end of the movement phase (trigger for vector strike special rule)

that model in ongoing reserves, is allowed to arrive automatically next turn,

that is all pg 125 says,

if you want to add house rules for a unit in ongoing reserve being able to perform more then this single action, feel free, but that is all the book permits

Well that depends, does the entering of ongoing reserves trigger any effects? In this case it does.

Page 125 is not saying what you think it does.

I have quoted all the things you are given permission to do in both reserves and ongoing reserves,

none of it includes using special rules,

the onus of proof is on you to quote the rule saying you can use special rules from reserves.

by exclusion, we already know they cannot be



as to the above, vector strike is NOT triggered by the model entering reserves, it is triggered at the end of the movement phase, and is usable by a model on the board, but not usable by a model in ongoing reserves.
ongoing reserves has rules for one action,
and that is arriving,
prove pg 125 says you can do other things from ongoing reserves or admit its just HYWPI

I'm sorry I'm not making myself clear. You have provided the wrong rules and are standing by them. That is fine but the restriction is ONLY on the model in reserves using rules that come into effect the turn they enter play NOT when they exit play.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I'm sorry I'm not making myself clear. You have provided the wrong rules and are standing by them. That is fine but the restriction is ONLY on the model in reserves using rules that come into effect the turn they enter play NOT when they exit play.

so on turn one, models in reserve, who are not arriving from reserve,

can move, shoot, cast powers and use all their special rules?

that is what you are asserting,

how about you explain to me, using rules quoted please

what are models allowed to do in reserves?

what are models allowed to do in ongoing reserves?

But the model was on the board that turn at the start of that turn.
Honestly I cannot see specific permission but there is no restriction and the conditions of the special rule have been met.

A model in reserve turn one can stay there. It wasn't on the board to do anything or have conditions of vector strike met. I never said that a unit in reserves could effect the board. I said that a unit on the board can effect the board.
Models in ongoing reserves are treated like models in reserves. An important distinction is that the models in reserve weren't on the board to effect gameplay.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
But the model was on the board that turn.

the model is in on the board at the beginning of the turn.

it is is ongoing reserves before the turn ends, it is therefor in ongoing reserves before vector strike is allowed to trigger

what actions are you allowed to perform in ongoing reserves?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Honestly I cannot see specific permission but there is no restriction and the conditions of the special rule have been met.

yup because there is no permission, and we both know its a permissive rule set.

the conditions of the special rule have not been met,

because before that special rule gets to be used,

the model with it is under the effects of the ongoing reserves special rule,

and special rules have not been given blanket permission to be used from ongoing reserve