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 fleetofclaw wrote:

Archon ghostplate, shadowfield
4 Trueborn w/ 2 Splinter Canons, Venom w/ 2 SC, Nightshields
5 Trueborn w/ 2 Splinter Canons, Venom w/ 2 SC, Nightshields

5x Warriors, inc Sybarite, Venom w/ 2 SC
5x Warriors, inc Sybarite, Venom w/ 2 SC
10x Wyches, inc. hekatrix, haywire nades, assault nades in Raider w/ DL
10x Wyches, inc. hekatrix, haywire nades, assault nades in Raider w/ DL

6 reavers, inc. champ, 2x cluster caltrops, 2x heat lance

Ravager
Razorwing

Farseer
Guide, Fortune, Doom, RoWit, RoWard, jetbike (should I put him on foot and stick him in a trueborn Venom?)

3x Guardian jetbikes
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Like I said, this is just to get me started. Decent start? What should I add? Thanks

EDIT: Should I just drop the Trueborn and run them as Warriors to fill out my troops slots until I can drop $$ on more warriors and venoms?

Not a bad start at all. Some observations and suggestions:

-Sybarites aren't useful at all, and neither are unupgraded Hex's. Add an attack and some Ld for a ton of points-meh. Avoid 'em.

-Never, ever leave the Archon with his default weapon. Either give him a Blaster and make him shooty to go with some Blasterborn Autarch-style, or make him a CC/duel specialist with Huskblade/Soul Trap or an Agonizer. Even a power weapon is OK, just give him SOMETHING. If you go the CC route you should probably stick him with Incubi, Grots or Wracks. Ghostplate is unnecessary unless you want to use a clone field, as if you fail your 2++ you'll suffer ID 90% of the time. The clone field+ghostplate deserves some attention as well.

-Transports and the units they transport are separate units, so they can target different things. You have anti-personnel units in anti-personnel transports, and AT units in AT transports. As a result, your guys can be ignored by certain types of enemies. In my experience, HWG Wyches work best in Venoms and Warriors w/o a Blaster are best in Raiders, so each combination can threaten any enemy unit. plus,10 HWG is gross overkill and the assault capabilities of Wyches have been severely nerfed, so I'd stick to small Wych units.

-Try to specialize a bit with your Reavers. They can't fire and turbo boost the same turn, so either your HLs or your Caltrops are going to waste each turn. They're both expensive upgrades on fragile platforms, so you should carefully consider whether you need more anti-horde or anti-tank and decide on a single upgrade. You may even consider dropping them entirely to get another Ravager or Razorwing.

-I don't think SC Trueborn are that good; Venoms provide the same firepower for less points with slightly better survivability and much better mobility. I'd go with Blasterborn in two units of 4.

-NS are most important on assault boats to stay out of rapid fire/melta range until you can reliably get into CC. Therefore, I'd put the NS on transports carrying Wyches before going for the Warriors' boats.

Against hordes, my favorite units would be Razorwings w/monoscythes, massed Warriors in Raiders and vanilla Reavers. Caltrops/talons are also not a bad idea. Regarding Termies, poison is the best bet at range IMO. Dissies aren't usually worth it, as poison does force failed saves, and you're always sacrificing your premier transport cracker (DL) to get some. DE have the greatest concentration of AP2 CC weapons that aren't unwieldy among all armies in 40k and also many ways to get so many wounds on any infantry unit that saves don't matter. Oh, and we can run from the clumsy mon-keigh any time we don't want to face them. The big problem is killing transports, as we lack mid strength dakka. Don't alleviate the problem by getting Dissies.

Not necessarily a Tactics question, but what do you guys use to proxy for the Voidraven? A Razorwing?

And here's a tactics question!

Ravager, Voidraven or Razorwing in a 1500 pt list?

I've got two ravagers and a razorwing, and I'm reading that you pretty much need 2-3 flyers in 6th edition competitive games to deal with helldrakes, vendettas etc (haven't really played against flyers all that much yet, especially helldrakes). Since the Razorwing is in actuality an efficient bomber, and the Voidraven is in actuality a dogfighter, which one do you guys bring?

I'd think that the Razorwing has more average utility against both air and ground, but those voidlances are too good to pass up and we don't really need more anti-infantry.

The Ravager just seems like such a 5th edition option at this point.

chelsea_hollywood, I hesitate to tell you the obvious thing you already know, but lets face it: are vehicles really what wins games? Does killing them? It's usually the stuff inside and outside of them that you MUST kill. vehicles aren't invincible and if it takes you an extra round to kill a vehicle its not so bad. If it takes another round to kill a unit, you may never get the chance to regret your failure.

Dark Lances come on Trueborn and almost everyone takes a pair of them. So in the grand scheme of things, how much faster than 2 a round do you NEED to kill vehicles? Heck there may never be more than 2 vehicles that matter so much that you MUST kill them.

Its the law of diminishing return. The first round, vehicle killing is important. You kill two. Second round, you suddenly wish you had more anti-infantry and less vehicle killing cause there's only one more left that MATTERS. and then in round 3 you flat out wish the Dark Lances weren't lances anymore. Thats in the worst case scenario too.

Model counts are Up up up in 6th. You better deal with those dudes! Troops and the likie are what win battles.

I've heard a lot about Wyches, how they're only good for their haywire grenades, and should be taken in min squads, etc.

I'm wondering if they have any use as meatshields for a CC archon. If you take 9 wyches and a kitted out Archon in a raider, they could fairly reliably get into assault, or at least close (unless your opponent puts a lot of firepower into them, but if he does that, they're still being useful). Then, once they're in assault, let your CC beast of an archon do the killing, while the wyches sit there with 4++ saves.

Would that work as a kind of cheaper alternative to an archon/incubi CC deathstar, possibly in smaller point games at least?

BaconUprising wrote:
DE have loads of great anti-tank stuff. It's ridiculously easy to tear apart mech armies but still I agree to an extent with your point I would stick with the dark lances on a ravager for sure or they will kill maby 7-8 space marines in the entire game if the are lucky.

DE have huge problems with low AV anti tank as most of their cost effective anti tank require to get into CC or are extremely vunerable to mid strength weapons. Most of their weapons are just as effective against a 50 point chimera as they are against a 250 point land raider, which is a problem when facing 15 chimeras


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lizardwolf19 wrote:
I've heard a lot about Wyches, how they're only good for their haywire grenades, and should be taken in min squads, etc.

I'm wondering if they have any use as meatshields for a CC archon. If you take 9 wyches and a kitted out Archon in a raider, they could fairly reliably get into assault, or at least close (unless your opponent puts a lot of firepower into them, but if he does that, they're still being useful). Then, once they're in assault, let your CC beast of an archon do the killing, while the wyches sit there with 4++ saves.

Would that work as a kind of cheaper alternative to an archon/incubi CC deathstar, possibly in smaller point games at least?

9 wyches are only 9 T3 6+ wounds. A tactical squad rapidfiring them will kill them ALL and might leave your archon running. A tactical squad in rapid fire range isnt exactly a lot of firepower.

If they can assault out of a transport, shouldn't that be a non-issue? Assuming the transport is blown up, then yes, they're screwed, but so are most DE units anyway.

The big problem with 6th is that it made Wyches unexceptional, except for their access to HWG, which is why many people-including me-use them as small HWG carriers to kill tough vehicles. Wyches can be good tarpits in CC, but the Archon doesn't need that. While you shouldn't rely on his 2++ too heavily, the go-to units for his bodyguard are generally Wracks (cheap, grant FNP, high Toughness and can take saves against most ranged attacks) and Incubi (expensive, cracks armor). Some people use Grotesques, which are basically super-Wracks, but the models are too expensive for me, so I can't comment on that. Wyches have neither the durability of Wracks (especially when shot or caught in a Raider explosion) nor the power of Incubi, and hence are not an optimal Archon retinue. But if you don't want to use these, I guess Wyches could do OK. It's more about having better alternatives rather than anything that's terribly wrong with Wyches.

Correct me if I'm mistaken but aren't you limited to 6" movement for the raider if you want to fire at full BS with the warriors?

 lizardwolf19 wrote:
If they can assault out of a transport, shouldn't that be a non-issue? Assuming the transport is blown up, then yes, they're screwed, but so are most DE units anyway.

The rules for disembarking usually give your opponent a turn of shooting, which often kills the Raider (Remember, any assault boat is a high priority target, especially with an Archon in it). Wyches HATE explosions. Another problem is that you get screwed the moment you kill an enemy unit, as the rest of the enemy army can and will shoot you, against which Wyches have absolutely no answer, and a 200+ point unit should do better than tarpitting and killing something, and then getting blown to bits. As I stated in my earlier post, there are better alternatives than Wyches as a bodyguard, both for defensive and offensive purposes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:
Correct me if I'm mistaken but aren't you limited to 6" movement for the raider if you want to fire at full BS with the warriors?

Correct.

that would be correct minigun762, but if the raider gets shaken then no worries you can just turbo and hopefully you have splinter racks to reroll

also I'd suggest taking the Blaster on the reavers, the extra range and extra Str usually helps if you need to take out 2+ multiple wound units

edit: ninja'd

 lizardwolf19 wrote:
I've heard a lot about Wyches, how they're only good for their haywire grenades, and should be taken in min squads, etc.

I'm wondering if they have any use as meatshields for a CC archon. If you take 9 wyches and a kitted out Archon in a raider, they could fairly reliably get into assault, or at least close (unless your opponent puts a lot of firepower into them, but if he does that, they're still being useful). Then, once they're in assault, let your CC beast of an archon do the killing, while the wyches sit there with 4++ saves.

Would that work as a kind of cheaper alternative to an archon/incubi CC deathstar, possibly in smaller point games at least?

Archons are terrible in CC they have almost no use other than to hold one up with a shadowfield, they cause 2-3 wounds a turn I'd they are lucky. No dark eldar except haemonculi stuff should ever be used as a "meat shield"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gordash wrote:
Not necessarily a Tactics question, but what do you guys use to proxy for the Voidraven? A Razorwing?

And here's a tactics question!

Ravager, Voidraven or Razorwing in a 1500 pt list?

I've got two ravagers and a razorwing, and I'm reading that you pretty much need 2-3 flyers in 6th edition competitive games to deal with helldrakes, vendettas etc (haven't really played against flyers all that much yet, especially helldrakes). Since the Razorwing is in actuality an efficient bomber, and the Voidraven is in actuality a dogfighter, which one do you guys bring?

I'd think that the Razorwing has more average utility against both air and ground, but those voidlances are too good to pass up and we don't really need more anti-infantry.

The Ravager just seems like such a 5th edition option at this point.

Razorwing and ravanger should both be included in a 1500 point list, void raven is good but over costed for what it does and a squad of trueborn have similar capabilities. Razorwings should be taken as, one flyers have taken a massive buff in 6th edition and it can fulfil both anti infantry and vehicle roles while not many things will be able to shoot it down they are also undercosted, ravagers can fulfil the role of anti tank or anti infantry (MEQ) very easily and efficiently and can be tailored to fit most roles in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hedkrakka wrote:

 lizardwolf19 wrote:
If they can assault out of a transport, shouldn't that be a non-issue? Assuming the transport is blown up, then yes, they're screwed, but so are most DE units anyway.

The rules for disembarking usually give your opponent a turn of shooting, which often kills the Raider (Remember, any assault boat is a high priority target, especially with an Archon in it). Wyches HATE explosions. Another problem is that you get screwed the moment you kill an enemy unit, as the rest of the enemy army can and will shoot you, against which Wyches have absolutely no answer, and a 200+ point unit should do better than tarpitting and killing something, and then getting blown to bits. As I stated in my earlier post, there are better alternatives than Wyches as a bodyguard, both for defensive and offensive purposes.

That's the beauty of the power from pain rule...

Why take the Razorwing over the Voidraven?
Upgraded lances, better armor and access to better missiles seems worth the fairly minor point difference.

As far as the Wyches and HWG, I'm seeing them as a valid alternative to Trueborn in a Venom.

5 Wyches w/ bombs will run you 60 points and with 3's to hit so an average of 3 hits.
3 Trueborn with blasters wil run you 82 points with 3's to hit for an average of 2 hits.

VoidRavens are awesome.

Void Ravens are the preferred air vehicle of choice if going tank hunting and you can easily fit it with Shatterfield missiles to try and get some extra glances AND you can drop it's mine when you zoom off the board however for it's point value the razorwing is a fabulous choice when choosing a more resilient AI unit, by switching the DL's to Dissies and taking a splinter cannon you can easily mow down entire units while dropping missiles, it's beautiful sometimes, then you realize that you paid ~140 pts to deal about 100 points worth of damage in one turn instead of 75 for 190 pts. it feels like the last blessing from the eldar gods

BaconUprising wrote:

 lizardwolf19 wrote:
I've heard a lot about Wyches, how they're only good for their haywire grenades, and should be taken in min squads, etc.

I'm wondering if they have any use as meatshields for a CC archon. If you take 9 wyches and a kitted out Archon in a raider, they could fairly reliably get into assault, or at least close (unless your opponent puts a lot of firepower into them, but if he does that, they're still being useful). Then, once they're in assault, let your CC beast of an archon do the killing, while the wyches sit there with 4++ saves.

Would that work as a kind of cheaper alternative to an archon/incubi CC deathstar, possibly in smaller point games at least?

Archons are terrible in CC they have almost no use other than to hold one up with a shadowfield, they cause 2-3 wounds a turn I'd they are lucky. No dark eldar except haemonculi stuff should ever be used as a "meat shield"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gordash wrote:
Not necessarily a Tactics question, but what do you guys use to proxy for the Voidraven? A Razorwing?

And here's a tactics question!

Ravager, Voidraven or Razorwing in a 1500 pt list?

I've got two ravagers and a razorwing, and I'm reading that you pretty much need 2-3 flyers in 6th edition competitive games to deal with helldrakes, vendettas etc (haven't really played against flyers all that much yet, especially helldrakes). Since the Razorwing is in actuality an efficient bomber, and the Voidraven is in actuality a dogfighter, which one do you guys bring?

I'd think that the Razorwing has more average utility against both air and ground, but those voidlances are too good to pass up and we don't really need more anti-infantry.

The Ravager just seems like such a 5th edition option at this point.

Razorwing and ravanger should both be included in a 1500 point list, void raven is good but over costed for what it does and a squad of trueborn have similar capabilities. Razorwings should be taken as, one flyers have taken a massive buff in 6th edition and it can fulfil both anti infantry and vehicle roles while not many things will be able to shoot it down they are also undercosted, ravagers can fulfil the role of anti tank or anti infantry (MEQ) very easily and efficiently and can be tailored to fit most roles in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hedkrakka wrote:

 lizardwolf19 wrote:
If they can assault out of a transport, shouldn't that be a non-issue? Assuming the transport is blown up, then yes, they're screwed, but so are most DE units anyway.

The rules for disembarking usually give your opponent a turn of shooting, which often kills the Raider (Remember, any assault boat is a high priority target, especially with an Archon in it). Wyches HATE explosions. Another problem is that you get screwed the moment you kill an enemy unit, as the rest of the enemy army can and will shoot you, against which Wyches have absolutely no answer, and a 200+ point unit should do better than tarpitting and killing something, and then getting blown to bits. As I stated in my earlier post, there are better alternatives than Wyches as a bodyguard, both for defensive and offensive purposes.

That's the beauty of the power from pain rule...

Do you honestly believe that FNP saves Wyches from being gunned down in a single turn after they kill something? If you do, you probably have never actually fielded them. Try it and see how it works (i.e. how it doesn't work). Oh well, you claim Archons are terrible in combat, too. Archons. Double strength shenanigans? AP2 weapons striking at I7? Weapons that wound anything on a fixed number? A load of attacks? A choice between 2++ or nullifying some attacks? I'm sure Archons don't have access to any of that. Sarcasm aside, they aren't the utterly combat-dominating guys they were in the old codex, but are still some of the best face-slicers in 40k, especially in a challenge.

Do the Math archon DO only deal about 2-3 wounds a turn so they are pretty useless, double strength is only after killing an expensive character and very few people take a husk blade on there archon. So yes they do sort of suck in combat. They can be useful with their WS 7 to take blaster shots at priority targets but that's it, by the way I was joking about the wyches...

A few people before me nailed it pretty well but there's some serious noise in the thread so here's a few quick ones -

Archons suck unless they have a name that isn't "Archon" and are actually "Special Characters" - then there's a few good ones that happen to also be Archons in the fluff.

If a voidraven does anything a Razorwing doesn't, it's AA - if you're loading it up with missiles (which the VR doesn't get for free) and trying to blow up tanks you're doing it wrong. It says it's a bomber in the fluff, that's about it. Shoot at enemy fliers and hope your mine does something cute, or take the razorwing and scoop more stuff up off objectives so you can camp them while enemy flyers zip around trying to not eat random BS1 blaster shots. One sounds cool on the forums (YEAH AND IT LIKE BOMBS STUFF BOOM KRSHSH!?!) and one actually contributes to winning games.

Dark lances are overpriced on anything but a Raider (or Razorwing) so trueborn aren't going to be carrying them, and any decent DE list has enough splinter shots to shoot down any 2+ the enemy is fielding efficiently anyway. So raiders keep their lances and help TB drop any mech.

If you want to kill stuff in melee, use beast packs with a special character.

Reavers just aren't very good. If you want a fast-moving generalist unit to be near stuff you should just be using beast packs. The only real use for reavers would be a minimum squad that hangs out in your backfield to deal with inexpensive small threats that are just being used to seize objectives on the cheap and aren't worth the shooting power of a full warrior w/ cannon unit (think guardian jetbikes, inquisitorial henchmen, leftover gaunts, etc) and even then your beast pack can probably just circle back around and multicharge them later.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of note to the OP, after a quick re-read I can't find anyone in this thread using the ridiculous term ''dissie'' that has also had anything helpful to say WRT what you should actually be fielding in a DE list. So that's a pretty good way to sort through some of the chaff if you need to, just skip those ones.

 minigun762 wrote:
Why take the Razorwing over the Voidraven?
Upgraded lances, better armor and access to better missiles seems worth the fairly minor point difference.

As far as the Wyches and HWG, I'm seeing them as a valid alternative to Trueborn in a Venom.

5 Wyches w/ bombs will run you 60 points and with 3's to hit so an average of 3 hits.
3 Trueborn with blasters wil run you 82 points with 3's to hit for an average of 2 hits.

the Razorwing gets it's missiles for free, so it is considearbly cheaper. All the missiles are anti infantry, and the razorwing can get a splinter cannon and swap its dark lances for disintigrators which are also anti infantry.

True you're paying for missiles, but with the 2 per turn limit and included bomb, I don't see a reason to buy more than a pair. Plus the shatter missile is actually decent at killing armor as well as infantry.

MikeMcSomething wrote:
A few people before me nailed it pretty well but there's some serious noise in the thread so here's a few quick ones -

Reavers just aren't very good. If you want a fast-moving generalist unit to be near stuff you should just be using beast packs. The only real use for reavers would be a minimum squad that hangs out in your backfield to deal with inexpensive small threats that are just being used to seize objectives on the cheap and aren't worth the shooting power of a full warrior w/ cannon unit (think guardian jetbikes, inquisitorial henchmen, leftover gaunts, etc) and even then your beast pack can probably just circle back around and multicharge them later.

Definitely some noise in here.

Not sure I agree with your point about the Reavers. With the 3+ cover save they generate, and blasters, I see them being able to easily get to and harass the back lines, and then taking a few things out before they eventually die. At the same time that they're focusing on a non-scoring unit, my venoms are just mopping up infantry. Those reavers are some of the toughest things to kill in the codex now. Despite the focus on CC, if you're in CC with most anything worth taking in the codex, you're dead. Additionally, they can be reserved and come on with a 40 inch movement. They can be almost anywhere on the board in one turn, AND drop a bunch of hits on a squad that's trying to camp out. I'd say they're much better than a beast pack, but I think it's all in how you've tailored the rest of the list and the pts. You need at least two beast packs, or else it's just going to die to volume of fire.

Like someone else said in this forum, 200+ tarpits are meh. The volume of fire can deal with terminators easily enough. It's the flyers that I'm worried about, and for that you either need an ADL (which I've found to not be very effective with DE) or a voidraven.

If you're taking a voidraven, it should be naked, with a flickerfield. Adding missiles misses the point of the thing. It's a bomber in name only- in actuality, it's a decent AA platform. The razorwing jetfighter is, in actuality, a bomber, and I'd only run it with a flickerfield as well. Both of these things, when they hit the table, are going to die glorious deaths. They need list-stage purposes instead of trying to make them generalist units.

I'd love to be able to take Ravagers in squadrons of three though. My GOODNESS would that fix a lot of problems. 2x squadrons of 3 ravagers, 5 x Venoms w/warriors, Reavers filling out the rest of the list. That would be something fun . Everything has a clear purpose, the way eldar units should.

I've been fooling around with a dual deathstar after playing Sean's beastmaster packs now for a bit. Missed the US tournament though but had a small one up North.

* Urien Rakarth - 190
* Baron Sathonyx - 105
* Eldrad Uthran - 210

* 7 Master Grotesques, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Scissorhand - 315 (Urien here)

* 10 Kabalite Wariors, Splinter Cannon - 100 (manning AGL)
* 5 Wracks, Liquifier Gun, Raider 120
* 5 Wracks, Liquifier Gun, Raider 120
* 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66
* 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66

* 4 Beastmasters, 5 Khymerae, 6 Razorwing Flocks - 198 (Baron/Eldrad here)
* Voidraven Bomber, 2 Shatterfield Missiles, Flickerfield 175

* Aegis Defense Line, Icarus Lascannon - 85

I leave a Wrack squad behind the Aegis and reserve the other with the Voidraven and GJB squads. Boy is the Voidraven is good. Two would be ideal but at 1750 I do not have the points.



---- edited spelling grammar ----

 minigun762 wrote:
True you're paying for missiles, but with the 2 per turn limit and included bomb, I don't see a reason to buy more than a pair. Plus the shatter missile is actually decent at killing armor as well as infantry.

its only reroll to wound, so it's just a str7 hit.

It's the fact that it's now S7 anywhere on the blast, not just the center, that makes me think of anti tank. Then again this could be more of a 5e parking lot mentality.

what armor would it hit from the missiles

Also to the OP, if you end up going beat pack, you can for sure get your wyches to tarpit certain units until the pack gets there, which in that case you'll be wanting to take Baron Sathonyx

Just curious but anyone have any thoughts on Dark Eldar allies for Eldar? I recently found 15-16 of my Warriors from the ol 3rd ed. box. Seems I would be a couple purchases away from a functional ally (assuming Eldar worked a bit better for the edition of course).

So guys, OP here, what should I get next? Considering I only have Kabalites at the moment, i'll need another troop choice and an HQ to start me off what should I get?

Well, only having Kabalites, you at least have the best troop choice of the 4 but, they will definitely need a Raider. Their armor is crap and, cover is random.

Raiders might get glanced to death by Bolters but, it's still on 6's as opposed to, well... almost any Dark Eldar in the open that have no armor at all against ..bolters, shurikens or lasers.