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Still not looking up the rules are we?

"All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit." p13

"To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. " p14

What is the toughness of a unit of toughness 4? Majority toughness tells us how to find a unit's toughness.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Which makes the sentence about wounding units out of LOS useless.

I'll disagree. It's useful because it allows you to add to the wound pool. If no one is in LOS then it sucks but if only one or a few guys, are they are allocated all the wounds from the pool. It can force a lot of saves against only a few models.

a Land Raider is a unit, can you wound it?

40k-noob wrote:
a Land Raider is a unit, can you wound it?

It's a vehicle unit - so it has special rules that are analogous to wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:
Only models have those stats. Therefor you are wounding the Models in the Unit.

Absolutely false. You're conflating rolling to wound and allocating wounds.
The actual rules make a distinction between the two.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
a Land Raider is a unit, can you wound it?

It's a vehicle unit - so it has special rules that are analogous to wounds.

Point is Unit is just an identifier. It has not stats.

The models that make up the unit have stats and you wound them based on those stats.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
a Land Raider is a unit, can you wound it?

It's a vehicle unit - so it has special rules that are analogous to wounds.

Point is Unit is just an identifier. It has not stats.

The models that make up the unit have stats and you wound them based on those stats.

It's not just an identifier.

Under "Roll to Wound" on page 14:

... compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness...

Do you target units or models?

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
a Land Raider is a unit, can you wound it?

It's a vehicle unit - so it has special rules that are analogous to wounds.

Point is Unit is just an identifier. It has not stats.

The models that make up the unit have stats and you wound them based on those stats.

AGain, please actually reference the rules, especially when they have been given to you more than once

You wound the target. What is the TARGET of shooting? THe unit

You absolutely, 100% DO wound units. You then ALLOCATE wounds to models. The rules abslutely incontrevertibly back this up. You Wound units and then in a different step Allocate wounds to models.

If you disagree you must provide page numbers, not just more assertions which have already been proven incorrect

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Idolator - nothing requires them to hit the most models IN sight, just the most models total.

You have no restriction on hitting or generating wounds, but have the same restriction as any normal weapon on allocating to out of sight models.

While I do see what you're saying. I believe that the rules for targeting apply as well. You can't target models that you can't see, on purpose. If you can only see one model in a unit, but there is a big pile hiding behind a wall, you can't ignore the model or models that you can see in order to fire at the ones that you cannot see.

No, you cannot target *units* you cannot see. There is a big difference between unit and model.

The Template rules require you to maximise number of hits, and you are not allowed to break this rule unless told you can. Once you have targetted a unit in LOS, you are then forced to maximise the number of models from that unit that are hit. Nothing in this places a restriction on which models are in LOS

nosferatu1001 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
a Land Raider is a unit, can you wound it?

It's a vehicle unit - so it has special rules that are analogous to wounds.

Point is Unit is just an identifier. It has not stats.

The models that make up the unit have stats and you wound them based on those stats.

AGain, please actually reference the rules, especially when they have been given to you more than once

You wound the target. What is the TARGET of shooting? THe unit

You absolutely, 100% DO wound units. You then ALLOCATE wounds to models. The rules abslutely incontrevertibly back this up. You Wound units and then in a different step Allocate wounds to models.

If you disagree you must provide page numbers, not just more assertions which have already been proven incorrect

Page 14: To Wound paragraph 2
"To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. The number indicated is the minimum result on a D6 needed to convert the hit into a Wound. A value of '-' indicates that the target cannot be wounded by the Attack."

Does "Unit" have a Toughness Characteristic or do "Models" have a Toughness characteristic?

40k-noob wrote:
Page 14: To Wound paragraph 2
"To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. The number indicated is the minimum result on a D6 needed to convert the hit into a Wound. A value of '-' indicates that the target cannot be wounded by the Attack."

Does "Unit" have a Toughness Characteristic or do "Models" have a Toughness characteristic?

You keep ignoring the bolded word. It does not mean what you think it means.

Models have a Toughness characteristic, but the unit refers to it when rolling to Wound.
According to you, rolling to wound is sufficient to trigger things like Pinning, Entropic Strike, etc as a model has suffered a wound.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Page 14: To Wound paragraph 2
"To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. The number indicated is the minimum result on a D6 needed to convert the hit into a Wound. A value of '-' indicates that the target cannot be wounded by the Attack."

Does "Unit" have a Toughness Characteristic or do "Models" have a Toughness characteristic?

You keep ignoring the bolded word. It does not mean what you think it means.

Models have a Toughness characteristic, but the unit refers to it when rolling to Wound.
According to you, rolling to wound is sufficient to trigger things like Pinning, Entropic Strike, etc as a model has suffered a wound.

So, I take it, that would be a No, a Unit does not have a Toughness characteristic? Is that what you are saying?

No, and it doesn't need one.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, and it doesn't need one.

Ok so when checking the To Wound chart as stated in the rules, how do you wound something that does not have a Toughness characteristic value?

40k-noob - you are, again, ignoring the rules

"Target" and "majority toughness". The first tells you that the unit is the target, and the second tells you how to work out the toughness of the unit, which is the target

Again you are suffering 5th -edition hangover. The rules have changed, please do the posters a courtesy by more carefully reading the rules quotes and not just apparently ignoring them.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, and it doesn't need one.

Ok so when checking the To Wound chart as stated in the rules, how do you wound something that does not have a Toughness characteristic value?

Majority Toughness.

Since I've been polite and answered your questions how about you answer this one:
Do you target a model or a unit with shooting?

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, and it doesn't need one.

Ok so when checking the To Wound chart as stated in the rules, how do you wound something that does not have a Toughness characteristic value?

Majority Toughness
Now, what is the Target of shooting? IS it a Unit, or a Model?

Didn't you just say that unit does not have a Toughness Characteristic? So how can you have a "Majority Toughness?"

40k-noob wrote:
Didn't you just say that unit does not have a Toughness Characteristic? So how can you have a "Majority Toughness?"

So you're going to refuse to answer my question?
That's cool bro.
The unit doesn't have a Toughness so it looks at its components. See, you have permission to do so by the Rolling to Wound rules.
What you don't have permission to do is wound models when you're rolling to Wound - that comes with allocation.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Didn't you just say that unit does not have a Toughness Characteristic? So how can you have a "Majority Toughness?"

So you're going to refuse to answer my question?
That's cool bro.
The unit doesn't have a Toughness so it looks at its components. See, you have permission to do so by the Rolling to Wound rules.
What you don't have permission to do is wound models when you're rolling to Wound - that comes with allocation.

You target a unit of models. Because that is what "unit" is, a group of models and in some case a single model.

You also roll to Wound those models per the wound chart comparing Toughness of the Models vs Strength of the Weapon.

You can't wound "Unit" because it is just a reference to a model or group of models.

 reaverX wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Which makes the sentence about wounding units out of LOS useless.

I'll disagree. It's useful because it allows you to add to the wound pool. If no one is in LOS then it sucks but if only one or a few guys, are they are allocated all the wounds from the pool. It can force a lot of saves against only a few models.

It also ceases to be a unit out of LOS and isn't applicable to the discussion.

rigeld2 wrote:

So you're going to refuse to answer my question?
That's cool bro.

Many people ignore questions, or dismiss them as "irrelevant," in order to pursue their own agenda. But it is the cool thing to do, apparently.

40k-noob - fine, you cannot answer the questions so you dodge them.

to-wound is against the unit, allocation is against the model. According to your rule-less assertion, the two are the same "thing", meaning ES triggers as soon as you roll to wound against the unit. It doesnt, this is just an easy way of demonstrating your failure.

40k-noob wrote:
You can't wound "Unit" because it is just a reference to a model or group of models.

When measuring distance between units, how many models to you measure between?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k-noob - fine, you cannot answer the questions so you dodge them.

to-wound is against the unit, allocation is against the model. According to your rule-less assertion, the two are the same "thing", meaning ES triggers as soon as you roll to wound against the unit. It doesnt, this is just an easy way of demonstrating your failure.

I did answer your question and you would see that, if you would only read the all the posts before replying.

Now, since you are so adamant about answering questions. I am still waiting on you to define what "conflict" means in 40k terms, care to supply an answer to that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
You can't wound "Unit" because it is just a reference to a model or group of models.

When measuring distance between units, how many models to you measure between?

I assume you mean for shooting purposes, you measure from the firer to to the closet model in the target unit.

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k-noob - fine, you cannot answer the questions so you dodge them.

to-wound is against the unit, allocation is against the model. According to your rule-less assertion, the two are the same "thing", meaning ES triggers as soon as you roll to wound against the unit. It doesnt, this is just an easy way of demonstrating your failure.

I did answer your question and you would see that, if you would only read the all the posts before replying.

You've answered this question?

Now, what is the Target of shooting? IS it a Unit, or a Model?

Did I miss where?

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
You can't wound "Unit" because it is just a reference to a model or group of models.

When measuring distance between units, how many models to you measure between?

I assume you mean for shooting purposes, you measure from the firer to to the closet model in the target unit.

That's not what I asked - your assumption was incorrect.
But your answer is good enough.
Your assertion is that a "unit" is just a placeholder for "a bunch of models". How can you check range to the unit if you only measure to one model?

40k-noob - wonderful dodging, wonderful off topicness. Again


Please answer - does Target refer to Unit or Model? Easy enough to answer, if youve already done so once

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k-noob - fine, you cannot answer the questions so you dodge them.

to-wound is against the unit, allocation is against the model. According to your rule-less assertion, the two are the same "thing", meaning ES triggers as soon as you roll to wound against the unit. It doesnt, this is just an easy way of demonstrating your failure.

I did answer your question and you would see that, if you would only read the all the posts before replying.

You've answered this question?

Now, what is the Target of shooting? IS it a Unit, or a Model?

Did I miss where?

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
You can't wound "Unit" because it is just a reference to a model or group of models.

When measuring distance between units, how many models to you measure between?

I assume you mean for shooting purposes, you measure from the firer to to the closet model in the target unit.

That's not what I asked - your assumption was incorrect.
But your answer is good enough.
Your assertion is that a "unit" is just a placeholder for "a bunch of models". How can you check range to the unit if you only measure to one model?

My answer was "you target a unit of models."


as for: "How can you check range to the unit if you only measure to one model?" Because the group operates as one. There is only need to measure to the closest.

The same is true in the reverse, since the firer must also be in range not just the "unit," the guy with the Pistol, cannot shoot 14" away even the though the unit (i.e others with bolters) are in range.

You will also notice that in order to target anything first you need Model to Model LOS.

So you have a rules quote to back that up? Because the actual rules state "Unit"

Unit:
"A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone Character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is
also considered to be a unit in its own right."

LOS:
"To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line
of sight (see page 8) to at least one model in the target unit.
If no models have line of sight, then a different target must
be chosen."


Still waiting on you to define "conflict" in 40k Terms.