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To paraphrase 'living colour' ...

"Everything's permissable, nothing is real."

It is all canon, and at the same time, none of it is. That's the advantage of a narrative setting. It's up to YOU, the player, to determine what is 'canon' for your group of players.

Thanks for all the contributions to my little question! The consensus seems to be that in a Smoky the Bear-esque way, only YOU! can decide the canon.

Rulebook + Codexes + Black Library,

they are all official GW products,.. yet some do not agree with the other even when official,..

I realy realy like the Dawn of War storyline,.. It has even been adopted by GW in official novels,... though i consider this as my own fluff which might at some point come into conflict with gw...

It seems to me that GW intends no canon whatsoever. However, my own rules are:

(1) Is it published by GW, a GW affiliate, or under license from GW? If so, it is "canonical."

(2) Is there a contradiction between "canonical" sources? If so, compare the sources for: (a) specificity, (b) comprehensiveness, (c) age (where more recent sources prevail), and (d) coolness, in that order of weight.

"Everything is canon, but not all canon is true"

Some things that sound really stupid ARE still canon, but that doesn't mean it isn't twisted propoganda or an exaggerated tale.

I'm on the side of in universe perspective, the characters in 40k dont know as much about the universe as we the readers do, so a comment about a primarch in the 41st millennium about a primarch does not hold as much weight as a characters opinions from the 30th millennium.

As posted before, in the index astartes ferrus was not.killed as such, it was heavily.implied.that he was.massively wounded and taken (possibly) to mars to be fixed, now we know what happened to him, he be dead, the opinion from the 41st millennium is.still true, to the character who expressed it, but we the.reader know.what happened.

Everything is potentially correct and can be referenced... except C.S. Goto.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Everything is potentially correct and can be referenced... except C.S. Goto.

Hence the choice "Things you agree with, and nothing more!"

I do like the ambiguous aspect of it all. Instead of the Canon Cannon like someone posted, we get to interpret it our own way.

Matt Ward is not Canon, fething grey knights worshiping khorne is bs. aside from that though, it's open to interpretation.

Uh, GK worshipping Khorne is a fan-invention, not something Ward wrote. That the GK need the blood of martyrs for some dark ritual or another to ensure their sanctity is not particularly Wardian... but it is very much in keeping with how the GK operate.

That's true, a lot of stuff is artificially inflated by internet scuttlebutt. I also don't quite get what makes Goto that "bad" that he has become the premiere example for BL shenanigans (I used his name in this capacity myself, but only as it tends to evoke a different reaction from the community).

Did Goto do something much worse than a lot of other BL authors? Is it the frequency? Or was it just because he did it to the Space Marines? For I'm under the impression that a lot of people are much more willing to forget about rather drastic deviations made by different authors to other armies.

 Lynata wrote:
That's true, a lot of stuff is artificially inflated by internet scuttlebutt. I also don't quite get what makes Goto that "bad" that he has become the premiere example for BL shenanigans (I used his name in this capacity myself, but only as it tends to evoke a different reaction from the community).

Did Goto do something much worse than a lot of other BL authors? Is it the frequency? Or was it just because he did it to the Space Marines? For I'm under the impression that a lot of people are much more willing to forget about rather drastic deviations made by different authors to other armies.

From what I've heard, the dislike for Goto is that he puts multilasers in everything. Even in Carnifexes. Majority of BL don't do that.

 Psienesis wrote:
Uh, GK worshipping Khorne is a fan-invention, not something Ward wrote. That the GK need the blood of martyrs for some dark ritual or another to ensure their sanctity is not particularly Wardian... but it is very much in keeping with how the GK operate.

Only since Mr Ward rewrote their codex - before him ritual sacrifce and strange warpcraft was not really how they rolled....

I now operate on the there is my canon and that may or may not be supported by GW publciations - so I prefer the older version of Grey Knights, but love thier newer Dark Eldar. They don;t really care about it - so I don't either just take what I like and want

 Lynata wrote:

Did Goto do something much worse than a lot of other BL authors? Is it the frequency?

He just wrote his novels without:
-reading basic 40k fluff first
-taking much of reality from it ( don't get me wrong, even as it is 40k is quite reslistic and that is why I love it )

I mean... he made Eldar Shuriken cannons fire bullets, Terminators making flips with their tons heavy armor and he made Land Raiders turn into Razboracks and back ( how is that even possible I don't know )... and that is just some of example here. While his stories are not so bad the canon parts are.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:From what I've heard, the dislike for Goto is that he puts multilasers in everything. Even in Carnifexes.

But that's just it - from what I've heard (from the people who actually read the books), the Carnifex did not happen. The internet made it up, just like the Khornate GKs.
Goto puts Multilasers on Space Marines, and the internet suddenly has him put them everywhere because hyperbole is funny.
That doesn't make the Multilaser Marines less silly, but it also doesn't really make them stand out from the BL norm ...

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:He just wrote his novels without:
-reading basic 40k fluff first
-taking much of reality from it ( don't get me wrong, even as it is 40k is quite reslistic and that is why I love it )

I mean... he made Eldar Shuriken cannons fire bullets, Terminators making flips with their tons heavy armor and he made Land Raiders turn into Razboracks and back ( how is that even possible I don't know )... and that is just some of example here. While his stories are not so bad the canon parts are.

I'm under the impression that a number of authors does that (not reading basic fluff)...
But perhaps it is a matter of frequency, then - Goto sticking out more because whilst it happens everywhere, it happens more often in his books, and thus is easier to notice?

Abnett also seems to come up with a lot of deviations, but from what I can tell people generally do not perceive them as critical as they are a bit ... more subtle, and perhaps better embedded in the story. Maybe we have something like a "suspension of canon", similar to the suspension of disbelief, just referring to an individual willingness to overlook minor inconsistencies whilst maintaining lines that shouldn't be crossed.

I do not get why Marines with Multilasers is that bad. Sure, it is not an option in their Codex, but it is not that far fetched that some marines somewhere would use them sometimes. It's like Space Marine computer game giving Marines grenade launchers. It is nothing like Ward butchering Necron and GK fluff, and all the shenanigans in HH books.

 Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:From what I've heard, the dislike for Goto is that he puts multilasers in everything. Even in Carnifexes.

But that's just it - from what I've heard (from the people who actually read the books), the Carnifex did not happen. The internet made it up, just like the Khornate GKs.
Goto puts Multilasers on Space Marines, and the internet suddenly has him put them everywhere because hyperbole is funny.
That doesn't make the Multilaser Marines less silly, but it also doesn't really make them stand out from the BL norm ...

Khornate Gk's are meant to describe the GK's as written by Ward. Not that they worship Khorne.

I'm under the impression that a number of authors does that (not reading basic fluff)...
But perhaps it is a matter of frequency, then - Goto sticking out more because whilst it happens everywhere, it happens more often in his books, and thus is easier to notice?

Abnett also seems to come up with a lot of deviations, but from what I can tell people generally do not perceive them as critical as they are a bit ... more subtle, and perhaps better embedded in the story. Maybe we have something like a "suspension of canon", similar to the suspension of disbelief, just referring to an individual willingness to overlook minor inconsistencies whilst maintaining lines that shouldn't be crossed.

Goto feths up. Bl authors don't change Eldar ammunition.

Also Abnett's deviations are minor things that can fit in the Imperium very easily.

There is also another aspect - if a BL author makes up / changes things and people like it - it can more easily be accepted and treated as canon.

This precisely what happens with some of the newer codexes - some people (myself on occassion) don't like some of the changes...

Whereas IMO the "changes" I find are more often in BL an expansion to the very limted "canon" lore that already exists -I think both Abnet and ADB are very good at this - making stuff up that actually adds to the universe and people accept as making sense/ making it better?

But still its all there to be accepted or discarded as you will............

I've always thought of a Marine with a Multilaser as someone from the Brotherhood of Steel (in Fallout) toting around one of the Gatling Laser weapons you can get.

*shrug*

Abnett has things that exist in no other aspect of 40K, such as servitors that have intelligent, emotion-laden conversations with people, including humor and sarcasm. The Chapter Masters of current (M41) Space Marine Chapters being referred to as "Primarchs". Guardsmen (of a light infantry/scout battalion) in Carapace armor.

And GK have always been grim. Dire, humorless, grim bastards, who have (through Very Secretive Means) been able to carry Warp-tainted weapons, ancient grimoires, bound Daemons and other Warp-based shenanigans without fear of corruption. That a badly-written, but perfectly feasible, scenario is presented that explains how its done is really not that bad.

Grey Knights are *not* your friends!

I was never that bothererd about Marines using multi-lasers.

I prefered the "Very secretaive means" and purity aspect of the older Grey Knights fluff.

Grey Knights have never been your firends - agreed - I am not sure why anyone thought they were. Like the Sisters their purity made them uncompromising and ruthless.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Khornate Gk's are meant to describe the GK's as written by Ward. Not that they worship Khorne.

Apparently not, or at least not in all cases. See amudkipz' post.

It's the internet. Things get out of control here.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Goto feths up. Bl authors don't change Eldar ammunition.
Also Abnett's deviations are minor things that can fit in the Imperium very easily.

I would disagree. Other authors may not change Eldar ammunition, but they change a lot of other things. Acts of Faith being actual divine magic, Battle Sister novices trained in the Schola rather than by their Order, entire convents being infiltrated by Genestealers, ...
This goes for Abnett as well. I don't buy "Servitor-Navigators", and I don't buy incompatible lasgun chargepacks. I'm also sceptical to Navy techs repairing their own fighters (AdMech job?) and I don't accept Navy warships having their own Storm Trooper contingent. Psienesis listed some more stuff.

Mr. Morden has a point - it's all subjective, and group consensus may lead to some contradictions being accepted easier than others. That's why I mentioned Space Marines. When the topic of "messed up canon" comes up, the majority seems to think of Draigo, Khornate GKs or Multilasers, yet there is so much more that just gets ignored because whatever was changed wasn't as popular to begin with. Or at least so it appears.

Mr Morden wrote:I prefered the "Very secretaive means" and purity aspect of the older Grey Knights fluff.
Grey Knights have never been your firends - agreed - I am not sure why anyone thought they were. Like the Sisters their purity made them uncompromising and ruthless.

Agreed on both.

Psienesis wrote:
Abnett has things that exist in no other aspect of 40K, such as servitors that have intelligent, emotion-laden conversations with people, including humor and sarcasm.

Possibly modified.

The Chapter Masters of current (M41) Space Marine Chapters being referred to as "Primarchs".

That would be a genuine mistake.

Guardsmen (of a light infantry/scout battalion) in Carapace armor.

They may come from a well equipped world or managed to get the armor by accident.

Just look at this PDF special forces :

Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Khornate Gk's are meant to describe the GK's as written by Ward. Not that they worship Khorne.

Apparently not, or at least not in all cases. See amudkipz' post.

I'm going by what 1d4chan says which is what most people use.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Goto feths up. Bl authors don't change Eldar ammunition.
Also Abnett's deviations are minor things that can fit in the Imperium very easily.

entire convents being infiltrated by Genestealers, ...

Why not? These guys manage to infiltrate entire planets. With a lot of work, its possible they could infect a convent

This goes for Abnett as well. I don't buy "Servitor-Navigators",

Why not? Hell there are apparently artificial means to make Warp travel not rely on Navigators but the Navigators keep destroying them.

and I don't buy incompatible lasgun chargepacks.

It makes sense to me.

I'm also sceptical to Navy techs repairing their own fighters (AdMech job?)

The Space Marine video game has IG asking for a manual so as to repair their vehicles since there is not a single Tech priest around. Those navy techs could be under or trained by the Admech on the ship so as to repair the little things so he can focus on the bigger things.

and I don't accept Navy warships having their own Storm Trooper contingent.

I really can't comment on this.

Will be bugging out of this discussion as I can't keep up with you guys. Got a lot of projects(college work) to deal with :-(

Incidentally, it was Rawne wearing the Carapace, who is the XO of the Tanith First-and-Only.

 HerbaciousT wrote:
First of all, C.S.Goto can die in a hole.

And this is a common question, id suggest searching for threads on this sort of thing, as Im anticipating a bit of complaining directed at you. Just a heads up mate.

Anyway, a lot of different sources, and even different bits of fluff from the same source can contradict each other. A lot of the BL books contradict each other, due to all the different authors for example.

In my head, it just represents how chaotic the 40k universe is. Its so big and there is so much going on, that there are bound to be conflicting perspectives on single events, and what happened where and with who.

I guess generally GW (i.e. codices and rulebooks) is the top source, then the BL, and then other sources I dont know start to fall in.

C.S.Goto?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I'm going by what 1d4chan says which is what most people use.

Whoah there, one moment ... really now?

You do realise that the articles on 1d4chan, whilst usually rather hilarious, are full of hyperbole or even outright false? <Example>
All wikis (yes, even Lexicanum) are "dangerous" as their content relies entirely on the fan who edited the respective article. If possible, always consult the source directly. That being said, in general 4chan is where you go for fun, not for info.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why not? These guys manage to infiltrate entire planets. With a lot of work, its possible they could infect a convent

Because Sisters are not recruited from one planet but from all across the galaxy. They are then shipped off to the Schola Progenium facilities to undergo genetic purity testing before the many years of training and indoctrination, and then - if they are part of the lucky few who get picked - beginning their novitiate in another convent, followed by taking their oaths in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra, from where they are then sent to their final assignments.

Yeah, may as well turn a Space Marine Chapter into Genestealer-hybrids.

Okay, I suppose stuff like this would not be entirely impossible (if, say, half the Imperium was already infected), but it is quite a stretch as it would necessitate a lot of agents on all the various levels of Imperial authority to cover up the infestation. Given that the novel ended with a random Storm Trooper soloing an entire Order of power-armoured Battle Sisters, I'll rather just gonna dismiss the entire book from my perception.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why not?

Psyker cyborgs? Does not compute. You need a soul and very specific skills and most of all a lot of willpower to properly interact with the Warp, and lobotomisation tends to reduce servitors into drooling slave-machines. I don't think anyone would trust such a thing with contacting the Empyrean; Psykers are feared enough already.
On the other hand, if Psykers could continue to operate even in the vegetative state of a servitor, I'd ask why the Imperium doesn't just turn any Psyker into one, when they're that much easier to control.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:The Space Marine video game has IG asking for a manual so as to repair their vehicles since there is not a single Tech priest around.

Ah, that would be the same game that made the "998. model Godwyn-pattern boltgun, cal 0.75" (Marine Codex) into a "cal .998 Godwyn-pattern boltgun", that had meltas work like a shotgun rather than firing a stream, and a 2nd Company Captain that was not the guy who was supposed to be in charge of the 2nd Company if you go by the Codex chart (later "explained" by a THQ rep as the game taking place in an "alternate timeline" ) ...?

Don't get me wrong, I thought the game was awesome. Had lots of fun in single- and multiplayer, but there's a number of deviations from GW fluff.
Which doesn't mean that either fluff is "false". It just means that we should acknowledge that there will be ... differences in interpretation, "different lenses" as Aaron Dembski-Bowden put it. And it's up to us to pick which one we want to look through.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Got a lot of projects(college work) to deal with :-(

Ow, good luck with that!
Feel free to poke me/us whenever you feel like picking up the talk again.

 Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I'm going by what 1d4chan says which is what most people use.

Whoah there, one moment ... really now?

You do realise that the articles on 1d4chan, whilst usually rather hilarious, are full of hyperbole or even outright false? <Example>
All wikis (yes, even Lexicanum) are "dangerous" as their content relies entirely on the fan who edited the respective article. If possible, always consult the source directly. That being said, in general 4chan is where you go for fun, not for info.

*Groan* When people say Khornate Knight, they mean what 1d4chan says about the Ward GK's. Understand now?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why not? These guys manage to infiltrate entire planets. With a lot of work, its possible they could infect a convent

lynata wrote:Because Sisters are not recruited from one planet but from all across the galaxy. They are then shipped off to the Schola Progenium facilities to undergo genetic purity testing before the many years of training and indoctrination, and then - if they are part of the lucky few who get picked - beginning their novitiate in another convent, followed by taking their oaths in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra, from where they are then sent to their final assignments.

Yeah, may as well turn a Space Marine Chapter into Genestealer-hybrids.

Okay, I suppose stuff like this would not be entirely impossible (if, say, half the Imperium was already infected), but it is quite a stretch as it would necessitate a lot of agents on all the various levels of Imperial authority to cover up the infestation. Given that the novel ended with a random Storm Trooper soloing an entire Order of power-armoured Battle Sisters, I'll rather just gonna dismiss the entire book from my perception.

Seriously? ha ha ha that is hilarious. But I think you're exaggerating.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why not?

Psyker cyborgs? Does not compute. You need a soul and very specific skills and most of all a lot of willpower to properly interact with the Warp, and lobotomisation tends to reduce servitors into drooling slave-machines. I don't think anyone would trust such a thing with contacting the Empyrean; Psykers are feared enough already.
On the other hand, if Psykers could continue to operate even in the vegetative state of a servitor, I'd ask why the Imperium doesn't just turn any Psyker into one, when they're that much easier to control.

 Lynata wrote:
I would disagree. Other authors may not change Eldar ammunition, but they change a lot of other things. Acts of Faith being actual divine magic, Battle Sister novices trained in the Schola rather than by their Order, entire convents being infiltrated by Genestealers, ...
This goes for Abnett as well. I don't buy "Servitor-Navigators", and I don't buy incompatible lasgun chargepacks. I'm also sceptical to Navy techs repairing their own fighters (AdMech job?) and I don't accept Navy warships having their own Storm Trooper contingent. Psienesis listed some more stuff.

Mr. Morden has a point - it's all subjective, and group consensus may lead to some contradictions being accepted easier than others. That's why I mentioned Space Marines. When the topic of "messed up canon" comes up, the majority seems to think of Draigo, Khornate GKs or Multilasers, yet there is so much more that just gets ignored because whatever was changed wasn't as popular to begin with. Or at least so it appears.

And this is exactly why people should check basic 40k fluff before they sit down and write something new. They should even have a overseer or some kind of fluff group to whom they can tell their ideas about some new stuff in the fluff they want to write and it will be to thing guys to analyze this and tell them if it's ok or not.

With C.S. Goto that was not the case because he was given ultimate freedom to write and as a result we have got a lot of things that doesn't make sense. Granted, other authors also failed here and there but none of them actually gave Tyranids Human guns to use. With Matt Ward it was all about bad ideas, he tried to write a good story but he did it in a way that nobody or large part of community wouldn't like it ( Draigo beign badass, Grey Knights needed blood for protection, new Necrons etc.. .).

BL and Codex authors should have someone who knows the fluff better than them to check out of them and stop them from repeating the same mistakes. Vetock is doing 40k fluff nicely for being Fantasy writer, so he must have some kind of help or a control.

So yeah this discussion was part of the reason for my question.

It seems like there is more consistency in the rulebook + codexes (sp?), when you branch out from there the authors are given some leeway and BAM MULTI-LASERS on MULTI-LASERS!

Speaking of GKs, I never understood their portrayal in "The Killing Ground" by Graham McNeall. They seem like positively nice guys!

4TheG8erGood wrote:
So yeah this discussion was part of the reason for my question.

It seems like there is more consistency in the rulebook + codexes (sp?), when you branch out from there the authors are given some leeway and BAM MULTI-LASERS on MULTI-LASERS!

Speaking of GKs, I never understood their portrayal in "The Killing Ground" by Graham McNeall. They seem like positively nice guys!

Spoiler:

They even leave the planet pretty much alone after slaying some daemon infested creatures, opposed to the scorched earth policy that I remember them usually employing. After they first Battle for Armageddon the GKs and Inquisition killed several billion people just to keep things under wraps!

Only Goto is actually putting multilasers everywhere. rulebooks and codex are "consistent" cause they just repeat fluff while only adding a few things here and there and then having retcons from time to time which destroys consistency.

40k has no canon system. Ignoring C.S. goto's crap, the inconsistencies in other novels can be rationalized seeing as the 40k galaxy is big and not everything will be the same across the galaxy or Imperium. Not everyone has the same feelings or attitude on how to handle an issue which adds depth and personality.

And I already proved that on the first page that GW accepts FW, FFG, BL and DOW as parts of the 40k verse and even do happen and take place in the same galaxy.

Other sins of C.S. Goto that get rather less press than the Multilaser thing;

In Warrior Brood, we have an Assault Marine who not only has the ability to outright fly with his jump pack, he duels a Harridan bio-titan with a chainsword and wins.

In the same novel, we have an Inquisitor surviving a drop in a Space Marine drop pod.

We also have an Inquisitor who is a powerful enough psyker to send an astropathic message despite being literally surrounded by synapse tyranids.

We also have a sequel to a book whose ending I can't quite remember past the point where there were three Marines and an Inquisitor in a bunker on a planet that was otherwise populated solely by Tyranids.

In Eldar Prophesy, we have an even longer list of sins, not the least of which being that the book has so many made up words its impossible to read without turning to the appendix every other sentence.

We have Craftworld Eldar who are not psykers.

We have a Craftworld Eldar Farseer who is not a psyker and inherited his position from his father.

We have Craftworld Eldar who worship Slaanesh.

We have a Craftworld Eldar who commits suicide by breaking his soul stone.

We have an Eldar go from being a normal citizen to spontaneously becoming (not even being absorbed by) a Warp Spider pheonix lord. The fact that he's named "Lykhosidae" is lame and lazy, but not unforgivable if not for the rest of the book.

We have Craftworld Eldar Guardians who are referred to as "Household troops" and a "Standing army".

We have a Dire Avenger exarch who knows that the planet's rulers are Slaanesh worshippers and does nothing about it out of fear.

We have a Craftworld without an Infinity Circuit (despite those things being the core around which a Craftworld is built).

I'm sure there are other things that I'm forgetting.

No, none of this is "internet lore". These are all things that I have read, personally, myself in his books.