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 Grey Templar wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
This is why I so much preferr RAI over RAW. By the logic here, the soulgrinder must put -his eyes- in the skyfire gun, to give them gaze as skyfire.

Except the RAW is clear, and it says only the weapon profile with the Skyfire gets the Skyfire.

And RAI is far inferior to RAW because its subjective. RAI is really what YOU think the designers intended, which is most likely different from what I think the designers intended on some issue. So really it is rules as I want them to be, not rules as intended.

I guess it's nice the rulebook says you can basically do whatever you want with the rules then. *Shrug*

It's more a matter of "do you play RAW or RAI?" Obviously though, this board is pretty strict to discussing RAW.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
This is why I so much preferr RAI over RAW. By the logic here, the soulgrinder must put -his eyes- in the skyfire gun, to give them gaze as skyfire.

Except the RAW is clear, and it says only the weapon profile with the Skyfire gets the Skyfire.

And RAI is far inferior to RAW because its subjective. RAI is really what YOU think the designers intended, which is most likely different from what I think the designers intended on some issue. So really it is rules as I want them to be, not rules as intended.

I guess it's nice the rulebook says you can basically do whatever you want with the rules then. *Shrug*

Which is fine if you and your opponent agrees. Deciding to throw rules out the window does nothing constructive in this forum. Especially (not saying you) when people claim that how they play it is RAW.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
This is why I so much preferr RAI over RAW. By the logic here, the soulgrinder must put -his eyes- in the skyfire gun, to give them gaze as skyfire.

Except the RAW is clear, and it says only the weapon profile with the Skyfire gets the Skyfire.

And RAI is far inferior to RAW because its subjective. RAI is really what YOU think the designers intended, which is most likely different from what I think the designers intended on some issue. So really it is rules as I want them to be, not rules as intended.

I guess it's nice the rulebook says you can basically do whatever you want with the rules then. *Shrug*

Which is fine if you and your opponent agrees. Deciding to throw rules out the window does nothing constructive in this forum. Especially (not saying you) when people claim that how they play it is RAW.

Indeed. And I did add a little more to my last post, kind of reflecting what you said here.

If you are going to alter the RAW, you can't really discuss the rules here. The other people here want to play with the unaltered RAW(or find out what it is) and you changing it simply adds another layer of confusion.

I'm confused, as i do not believe i am altering RAW. Not trying to start a flame war but i think the RAW is clear, and that, depending on which of the two versions of his harvester he uses, he will be able to use full ballistics skill on flyers.

Let's look at the skyfire rule one more time, just so i might be able to bring people through my train of thought once more

A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistics Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.

So I'm going to attempt to break this sentence down to make more sense by asking a couple key questions:

First of all, will this model be firing a weapon with the skyfire USR?
-yes, as it will be firing a version of its harvester, which has skyfire

Then, does the USR specify that only the gun that is firing uses it's normal ballistics skill?
-No, as specified in the rule "A model ['model' is the noun]... fires using its normal Ballistics Skill..." It does not specify that only the weapon that is being fired can use its full BS

Does this break the initial condition of firing a weapon with skyfire if it also fires another weapon?
-No, as all shooting from the model happens at the same time, the SG will be "firing a weapon with [skyfire]" while it is firing all of its other weapons. This will not break the initial condition to fire at full ballistics skill.



So, as i hopefully have proven, the soulgrinder is "firing a weapon with [skyfire]", therefore allowing the model to fire "using it's normal Ballistics Skill when shooting at flyers." Which in turn means that the model may fire it's weapons using full BS, including Warp Gaze. Firing Warp Gaze does not break the initial condition of "firing a weapon with [skyfire]" as these two operations will be occuring at the same time. So therefore while the SG is firing its Warp Gaze, it will also be "firing a weapon with [skyfire]" and be able to use the model's full BS when shooting at Flyers.


And that if he doesn't use his skyfire version of the harvester, he will not be firing a weapon with skyfire, and won't have to "only fire snap shots against ground targets."


Let me know if you have any uncertainties about my logic or if you think i went wrong somewhere with the RAW

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I'm confused, as i do not believe i am altering RAW. Not trying to start a flame war but i think the RAW is clear, and that, depending on which of the two versions of his harvester he uses, he will be able to use full ballistics skill on flyers.

Let's look at the skyfire rule one more time, just so i might be able to bring people through my train of thought once more

A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistics Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.

So I'm going to attempt to break this sentence down to make more sense by asking a couple key questions:

First of all, will this model be firing a weapon with the skyfire USR?
-yes, as it will be firing a version of its harvester, which has skyfire

Then, does the USR specify that only the gun that is firing uses it's normal ballistics skill?
-No, as specified in the rule "A model ['model' is the noun]... fires using its normal Ballistics Skill..." It does not specify that only the weapon that is being fired can use its full BS

Does this break the initial condition of firing a weapon with skyfire if it also fires another weapon?
-No, as all shooting from the model happens at the same time, the SG will be "firing a weapon with [skyfire]" while it is firing all of its other weapons. This will not break the initial condition to fire at full ballistics skill.



So, as i hopefully have proven, the soulgrinder is "firing a weapon with [skyfire]", therefore allowing the model to fire "using it's normal Ballistics Skill when shooting at flyers." Which in turn means that the model may fire it's weapons using full BS, including Warp Gaze. Firing Warp Gaze does not break the initial condition of "firing a weapon with [skyfire]" as these two operations will be occuring at the same time. So therefore while the SG is firing its Warp Gaze, it will also be "firing a weapon with [skyfre]".


And that if he doesn't use his skyfire version of the harvester, he will not be firing a weapon with skyfire, and won't have to "only fire snap shots against ground targets."


Let me know if you have any uncertainties about my logic or if you think i went wrong somewhere with the RAW

You went wrong with RAW when you ellipse'd out the "or that is firing a weapon with this special rule,". That weapon has Skyfire, not the model. The SG uses full BS when firing that weapon, all other weapons are determined individually. If the SG model has Skyfire then all weapons would fire at full BS against flyers/skimmers, but would snap against ground targets. Firing the Warp Gaze does break the condition as Warp Gaze does not possess Skyfire, again only the weapon with Skyfire can benefit from Skyfire.

andystache wrote:


You went wrong with RAW when you ellipse'd out the "or that is firing a weapon with this special rule,". That weapon has Skyfire, not the model. The SG uses full BS when firing that weapon, all other weapons are determined individually. If the SG model has Skyfire then all weapons would fire at full BS against flyers/skimmers, but would snap against ground targets. Firing the Warp Gaze does break the condition as Warp Gaze does not possess Skyfire, again only the weapon with Skyfire can benefit from Skyfire.

It does not matter if Warp Gaze has skyfire, nor the model, only that the model is firing a weapon that does have it. Once again, because both weapons fire at the exact same time, the model will be firing a weapon with skyfire, and will therefore be able to use his full ballistics skill. The rule does not specify that you go weapon by weapon, as you have assumed.

So if I have my Leman Russ Vanquisher touching a quad gun I can fire his main guy with skyfire...interesting. But wrong.

Caboose

thisisnotpancho wrote:

andystache wrote:


You went wrong with RAW when you ellipse'd out the "or that is firing a weapon with this special rule,". That weapon has Skyfire, not the model. The SG uses full BS when firing that weapon, all other weapons are determined individually. If the SG model has Skyfire then all weapons would fire at full BS against flyers/skimmers, but would snap against ground targets. Firing the Warp Gaze does break the condition as Warp Gaze does not possess Skyfire, again only the weapon with Skyfire can benefit from Skyfire.

It does not matter if Warp Gaze has skyfire, nor the model, only that the model is firing one that does have it. Once again, because both weapons fire at the exact same time, the model will be firing a weapon with skyfire, and will therefore be able to use his full ballistics skill. The rule does not specify that you go weapon by weapon, as you have assumed.

Nor does the rule specify that one weapon with Skyfire gives all other weapons on that model Skyfire. In fact it makes a distinction between a model with Skyfire and a weapon with Skyfire. If a weapon with Skyfire conferred Skyfire on any weapon on the model the LR Hyperios would be the best AA platform in the game, it's Hyperious launcher would confer Skyfire onto its 2x TLLC and TLHB. It doesn't work like that.

andystache wrote:


Nor does the rule specify that one weapon with Skyfire gives all other weapons on that model Skyfire. In fact it makes a distinction between a model with Skyfire and a weapon with Skyfire. If a weapon with Skyfire conferred Skyfire on any weapon on the model the LR Hyperios would be the best AA platform in the game, it's Hyperious launcher would confer Skyfire onto its 2x TLLC and TLHB. It doesn't work like that.

I don't believe i am assuming any of that. Warp Gaze does not have skyfire, nor the model. The Weapon does not confer skyfire, but confers the use of full ballistics skill. You have to understand that there is only one initial condition to be met as per the wording of skyfire: Is the model firing a weapon with skyfire? He is, because he will be firing the harvester with skyfire. Then once that initial condition is met, the model is allowed to fire using its normal BS against flyers. The model can then fire Warp Gaze using its normal BS against flyers because it does not break the initial condition, as the model is firing a weapon with skyfire while firing Warp Gaze, therefore allowing it to fire using its full BS.

The harvester does not confer skyfire to it's other weapons, nor the model, it only allows the model to fire using its full BS against Flyers (which is basically the skyfire rule), but the actual rule is not given. The only permission given is the use of normal BS against Flyers, which "firing a weapon with [skyfire]" grants.

Nevermind.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

andystache wrote:


Nor does the rule specify that one weapon with Skyfire gives all other weapons on that model Skyfire. In fact it makes a distinction between a model with Skyfire and a weapon with Skyfire. If a weapon with Skyfire conferred Skyfire on any weapon on the model the LR Hyperios would be the best AA platform in the game, it's Hyperious launcher would confer Skyfire onto its 2x TLLC and TLHB. It doesn't work like that.

I don't believe i am assuming any of that. Warp Gaze does not have skyfire, nor the model. The Weapon does not confer skyfire, but confers the use of full ballistics skill. You have to understand that there is only one initial condition to be met as per the wording of skyfire: Is the model firing a weapon with skyfire? He is, because he will be firing the harvester with skyfire. Then once that initial condition is met, the model is allowed to fire using its normal BS against flyers. The model can then fire Warp Gaze using its normal BS against flyers because it does not break the initial condition, as the model is firing a weapon with skyfire while firing Warp Gaze, therefore allowing it to fire using its full BS.

The harvester does not confer skyfire to it's other weapons, nor the model, it only allows the model to fire using its full BS against Flyers (which is basically the skyfire rule), but the actual rule is not given. The only permission given is the use of normal BS against Flyers, which "firing a weapon with [skyfire]" grants.

The SG ceases to be firing a weapon with Skyfire once the dice for the Skyfire weapon have been rolled. Just because a unit fires all of its weapons at the same time does not mean all the weapons operate under the same special rules.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You broke down the sentence incorrectly. It is essentially two sentences in one:

A model with this special rule fires using its normal Ballistics Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.

And

A model that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistics Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.

I understand, but the noun remains the same.

in the second example, 'model' is still the noun. It still grants the use of normal BS against flyers, not only the weapon.

"that is firing a weapon with this special rule" is only to describe the noun, the model. The two sentences to not differentiate the permission granted, only the initial condition. The model does not have skyfire, but it is firing a weapon with skyfire, therefore allowing the model to use its full BS when shooting at flyers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andystache wrote:


The SG ceases to be firing a weapon with Skyfire once the dice for the Skyfire weapon have been rolled. Just because a unit fires all of its weapons at the same time does not mean all the weapons operate under the same special rules.

No, as the model will be firing all of its weapons at the same time as per the RAW, which means that it will be firing a weapon with skyfire while it is firing its warp gaze. It is as if you look at two different models fighting at the same Initiative step. Yes, the dice were rolled at different times, but all of the blows are happening at the same time

thisisnotpancho wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You broke down the sentence incorrectly. It is essentially two sentences in one:

A model with this special rule fires using its normal Ballistics Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.

And

A model that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistics Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.

I understand, but the noun remains the same.

in the second example, 'model' is still the noun. It still grants the use of normal BS against flyers, not only the weapon.

"that is firing a weapon with this special rule" is only to describe the noun, the model. The two sentences to not differentiate the permission granted, only the initial condition. The model does not have skyfire, but it is firing a weapon with skyfire, therefore allowing the model to use its full BS when shooting at flyers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andystache wrote:


The SG ceases to be firing a weapon with Skyfire once the dice for the Skyfire weapon have been rolled. Just because a unit fires all of its weapons at the same time does not mean all the weapons operate under the same special rules.

No, as the model will be firing all of its weapons at the same time as per the RAW, which means that it will be firing a weapon with skyfire while it is firing its warp gaze. It is as if you look at two different models fighting at the same Initiative step. Yes, the dice were rolled at different times, but all of the blows are happening at the same time

Except this isn't CC where we have Init values to compare, so that has no bearing on this discussion. Let's apply your interpretation to another model with this option, the Hydra from the IG codex. This unit has 1 weapon with Skyfire (quad AC) and 1 without (hull mounted HB). By your interpretation if the Hydra chooses to shoot at a non-flyer then both the quad cannon and the HB can only hit that unit on a 6, because the model is firing a weapon with Skyfire. Another example where this breaks down, back to the LR Hyperios, which has Skyfire on the Hyperious and PoTMS on the model itself. By your rationale I can fire the Hyperios at a flyer using PoTMS and then all of my other weaponry needs 6s to hit ground targets because I am firing a weapon with Skyfire. Since you agree that Skyfire is not conferred to other weapons we can assume that Interceptor isn't conferred either.

andystache wrote:


Except this isn't CC where we have Init values to compare, so that has no bearing on this discussion. Let's apply your interpretation to another model with this option, the Hydra from the IG codex. This unit has 1 weapon with Skyfire (quad AC) and 1 without (hull mounted HB). By your interpretation if the Hydra chooses to shoot at a non-flyer then both the quad cannon and the HB can only hit that unit on a 6, because the model is firing a weapon with Skyfire. Another example where this breaks down, back to the LR Hyperios, which has Skyfire on the Hyperious and PoTMS on the model itself. By your rationale I can fire the Hyperios at a flyer using PoTMS and then all of my other weaponry needs 6s to hit ground targets because I am firing a weapon with Skyfire. Since you agree that Skyfire is not conferred to other weapons we can assume that Interceptor isn't conferred either.

Well, yes i believe all of those would be correct, as exactly the wording states that the model must fire using snap shots against ground targets and full BS against flyers if it fires a weapon with skyfire.

Just because it seems odd does not mean that it is wrong. Skyfire is just a poorly worded USR, and nobody has dissected it yet because it mostly hasn't mattered until now (or hasn't come into their favor until now). So yes, we have been playing hydras wrong...

But once again this is just a bad wording of the rule, as I and most people will be completely ignoring this. Even TOs will rule that this wording is dumb if you bring it up, but it is RAW

thisisnotpancho wrote:

andystache wrote:


Except this isn't CC where we have Init values to compare, so that has no bearing on this discussion. Let's apply your interpretation to another model with this option, the Hydra from the IG codex. This unit has 1 weapon with Skyfire (quad AC) and 1 without (hull mounted HB). By your interpretation if the Hydra chooses to shoot at a non-flyer then both the quad cannon and the HB can only hit that unit on a 6, because the model is firing a weapon with Skyfire. Another example where this breaks down, back to the LR Hyperios, which has Skyfire on the Hyperious and PoTMS on the model itself. By your rationale I can fire the Hyperios at a flyer using PoTMS and then all of my other weaponry needs 6s to hit ground targets because I am firing a weapon with Skyfire. Since you agree that Skyfire is not conferred to other weapons we can assume that Interceptor isn't conferred either.

Well, yes i believe all of those would be correct, as exactly the wording states that the model must fire using snap shots against ground targets and full BS against flyers if it fires a weapon with skyfire.

Just because it seems odd does not mean that it is wrong. Skyfire is just a poorly worded USR, and nobody has dissected it yet because it mostly hasn't mattered until now (or hasn't come into their favor until now). So yes, we have been playing hydras wrong...

But once again this is just a bad wording of the rule, as I and most people will be completely ignoring this. Even TOs will rule that this wording is dumb if you bring it up, but it is RAW

I still disagree with your interpretation of how a model/unit fires. A model fires all of its weapons at the same time, but each weapon still fires. In the case of the SG it is firing one weapon with Skyfire and one weapon without. The weapon with Skyfire meets the criteria to fire at full BS, the other weapon does not meet this criteria. Because the wording of Skyfire differentiates between a model with Skyfire and a model firing a weapon with Skyfire each weapon must the model is firing must have Skyfire for all shots to use full BS. The shooting rules establish that each weapon is rolled for separate and thus is fired separately. There is a caveat for fast rolling in which different colored dice are recommended to speed things along, but each weapon is still firing individually. Do not have the BRB in front of me, but it may even specify that certain weapons may need different rolls to hit.

my $0.02
Short answer: technology. A weapon that can track the supersonic aircraft as it speeds over the battlefield will more likely hit it. An unguided weapon that someone fires in the general path of the aircraft in hopes that it hits it.
long answer:
A weapon with skyfire (theoretically) has the ability to track or otherwise follow an aircraft moving at a high rate of speed. Be that volume of fire, a special mount or seeking missiles, it is specially made to fubar any aircraft it can see.
A weapon manually fired at the same target without these abilities would have to be a much better shot or be very lucky to hit it (can YOU manually fire a machine gun at a fighter jet flying at and past you at 700+ MPH and hit it as well as you could a watermelon at 100 yards?) as they will have to pretty much guess where it will be at the time the bullet will be there. IE: I can fire both a heat-seeking flakk missile and a 1911 handgun one after the other. Does that mean I have the ability to hit the plane with the handgun as well as with the missile that locked on and has the ability to follow that aircraft? no.