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 Frazzled wrote:
So in other words, you didn't read the actual article.

Show me where it states that only automatic weapons and grenades were used. It mentions them to highlight the fact of how serious this battle was. Not that they were the only weapons. Come now surely you realize that semi autos and pistols are still much easier and cheaper to get. And as I just showed you, a lot of those are coming from the US.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

Relapse wrote:
This is why my Mexican buds can't stand drug users. They supply the cartels with money to allow this kind of thing to happen.

Are they also mad at the government and gun shop owners for supplying them with weapons too?

Gun shop owners don't have automatic weapons and grenades. That comes from Venezuela, Africa, and bought from the Mexican and US military. Sorry. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.

"According to [U.S.] Justice Department figures, in the past five years 94,000 weapons have been recovered from Mexican drug cartels, of which 64,000 -- 70 percent -- come from the United States."

Want to try again Frazz?

Why in the nine hells would they do that? Mexican drug syndicates can buy guns anywhere. For the relatively underpowered civilian rifles coming from the United States, drug runners would pay between 300% and 400% above the market price. Thus they can and are buying guns around the world. Mexican drug cartels – with a $40 billion in annual revenues – have military armament that includes hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions, antitank rockets and assault rifles smuggled from Central American countries.These are infantry weapons bought from around the world and not civilian “assault weapon” rifles from the United States as people seem desperate to imply. Now where the "US weapons" might be coming from are the piles of military grade arms we've scattered around the world to various not nice people like the Contras. The M-16 is fairly popular on the black market and I'm sure the Cartels take the time to buy only the best to protect their products.

All of that is supported by BATFE, National Drug Intelligence Center and DEA data.

It's also worth noting that in Senate Committee testimony, the BAFTE said the number (of weapons flowing from the US directly) was likely at worst in the “hundreds”. For 2007 and 2008, the average for all seizures was closer to 40 per day (29,000/730), only a fraction of which came from the USA by any means.
Source: Senate Committee Judiciary, William Hoover, Assistant Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms, March 17, 2009



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So in other words, you didn't read the actual article.

Show me where it states that only automatic weapons and grenades were used. It mentions them to highlight the fact of how serious this battle was. Not that they were the only weapons. Come now surely you realize that semi autos and pistols are still much easier and cheaper to get. And as I just showed you, a lot of those are coming from the US.

You're incorrect. A US semiautomatic rifle is extremely expensive on the world market compared to full autos on the same global market. A single semi-automatic AK-47 in the United States can buy you a CRATE of the things in the right global market. Going price in certain parts of Africa is $2 US or a live chicken, and I promise you people with the money at the Cartel's levels, who are already a group of people specialize in international smuggling already, don't really care about embargoes. Not to mention the effort of having to set up straw buyers in the US can be fairly painful, and lot of the gunshops on the border states aren't manned by stupid people. Fast and Furious exposed that, the BATFE had to THREATEN gun store owners to get them to make the sales for the program, they were going to deny the strawmen out of hand without government intervention.

It always amuses me when they run an article on weapons seized from the cartel, and then the article explicitly blames "loose US gun laws and gun shows" for allowing the flow of guns to the cartel. Then they invariably show a picture of the table full of guns, and it's always got, like, M203 grenade launchers, hand grenades, maybe a belt-fed vehicle mount 50 just for the luls.

Those damn gun shows, always running sales on the Ma Deuce.

I wish they had gun shows like that around here.

maybe they better clamp down on WW2 reenactments

 Ouze wrote:
It always amuses me when they run an article on weapons seized from the cartel, and then the article explicitly blames "loose US gun laws and gun shows" for allowing the flow of guns to the cartel. Then they invariably show a picture of the table full of guns, and it's always got, like, M203 grenade launchers, hand grenades, maybe a belt-fed vehicle mount 50 just for the luls.

Those damn gun shows, always running sales on the Ma Deuce.

Only in my wildest fantasies.

Frazzled wrote:I wish they had gun shows like that around here.

I doubt that. Because that would imply "other people" would possess armaments like that; not just you.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I wish they had gun shows like that around here.

I doubt that. Because that would imply "other people" would possess armaments like that; not just you.

Then we're all balanced!

I wish I still had the picture my friend in the Border Patrol sent me of 12 hand grenades they found in a car. Thing is, this car was heading into Mexico, from America.

I think the problem you're having is you're viewing the cartels as this monolithic structure, where everything is equally shared amongst it's members. It's not. It's more like an organized collection of street gangs.

Who is your average cartel member? A poor, uneducated Mexican male. How likely are they to have connections to international gun runners vs. having a family member in the US? It's not like you join a cartel and they say "here's your uniform and your rifle, welcome to the Zetas!" The frontline soldiers have to defend themselves and carry out orders with what they can find. Sometimes thats a full auto AK from Africa, sometimes thats a cheap handgun bought at a gun show in Texas.

If there wasn't any real gun smuggling going into Mexico from the US then why would the government even bother with an operation like Fast and Furious?

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

If there wasn't any real gun smuggling going into Mexico from the US then why would the government even bother with an operation like Fast and Furious?

Why indeed, and if there was such smuggling going on, why would an Assistant Director of the BATFE say otherwise before the US Senate?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

..............

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks." .......

I'd also bet money those grenades didn't come from the United States, it's easier to get a key to the front door of the playboy mansion then it is to acquire Class IV destructive devices in the US.

Youre right, i bet no one in america has grenades.

 fire4effekt wrote:
Youre right, i bet no one in america has grenades.

No one bought them at a gun show or gun store. If they were real they were somebody's military.

And any one who legitimately has grenades has to track and account for every single one of those bad boys. Not that many people do. It's manufacturers, the military, some police forces have military grade "grenades" usually in the "tear gas" variety... and that's about it. It's easier to become a member of the US Senate (both in terms of qualifications, and in relation to how difficult the background check is) then it is to legally acquire Class IV materials. Crimes with Class III (legally owned full automatic weapons) are rare enough as it is. (Which is to say one incident since the NFA was passed 1930s, I've heard rumors that C. Dorner had full auto weapons, but have seen no confirmation.)

I'm just saying if you've had time to train with grenades, you probably had time to pinch one.

Also how hard would it be to rebuild one from the training grenades they sell at Army/Navy Stores? All you need is a blasting cap, powder and to seal the hole in the bottom.

Blasting Caps are kinda hard to get from what I've heard. And stealing them? Those suckers get accounted for for this precise reason. Probably tighter security than tank rounds, you arn't going to walk off with a tank round in your pocket after all.

You do bring a point up though, its so difficult to get grenades(military grade fragmentation) in the US you'd be better off building them from scratch.

Any grenades or other ordinance coming into Mexico from the US was almost certaintly just shipped through the US and not aquired here. As in, arms smuggler ships stuff in from other countries into the US, then sells them to the cartel in Mexico. So the nades weren't made here.

 fire4effekt wrote:
I'm just saying if you've had time to train with grenades, you probably had time to pinch one.

Also how hard would it be to rebuild one from the training grenades they sell at Army/Navy Stores? All you need is a blasting cap, powder and to seal the hole in the bottom.

The first half of this post shows how profoundly limited your knowledge of the subject matter is.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 fire4effekt wrote:
I'm just saying if you've had time to train with grenades, you probably had time to pinch one.

Also how hard would it be to rebuild one from the training grenades they sell at Army/Navy Stores? All you need is a blasting cap, powder and to seal the hole in the bottom.

The first half of this post shows how profoundly limited your knowledge of the subject matter is.

Haaahahahahahahahaha and the second half just proves it.

Please tell me you either are guessing or just don't know what you're talking about. Each hand grenade is serialized and strictly controlled, soldiers, Marines, etc are not only checked for spare ordnance of any kind (including fired brass) but are literally patted down. Had a young gentleman in my unit almost catch a court martial for walking off with some 5.56 ammunition after rifle training. Weapons control on military bases makes most of Europe look like Arizona as far as accessibility goes.

As for converting the grenades, you're either fishing for information or just plain talking out your donkey cave. So I'll skip to the technical information and drop the law book. All de-milled ordinance sold has been rendered non-useable, non-functional and non-convertible per BATFE standards, if they were easily convertible back to functional weapons the BATFE would come down on who ever was selling them like the right fist of god. It's also worth noting that a lot of the grenades you see at surplus stores aren't "grenades" but replicas. For the record this goes for Class III automatic weapons as well, which is why you can't pick up an AR-15 or semi-auto AK and magically turn it into one of the fully auto terror machines that keeps the liberal press up at night.

In fact it's why the "missile launchers" that LAPD and Seattle PD recently picked up in gun buybacks were more scams on the guys turning them in's part then anything to be concerned about. A PVC pipe painted olive drab is just as dangerous.



Note "Training" on the side of the tube.

 Frazzled wrote:
I wish they had gun shows like that around here.

That's always how I picture Texas, Fraz.

So, three truckoads of Mexican drug gunmen are dead and we're sad WHY? Let them kill each other off.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:


So, three truckoads of Mexican drug gunmen are dead and we're sad WHY? Let them kill each other off.

Oh I dunno, possibly the 2 innocent bystanders that were also killed? Just collateral damage, right? Works for the military well enough I guess.

With only 2 bystanders killed, I'm actually slightly impressed. The cartel's certaintly weren't trying to minimize civilian casualities(unlike what our military does)

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I wish they had gun shows like that around here.

That's always how I picture Texas, Fraz.

So, three truckoads of Mexican drug gunmen are dead and we're sad WHY? Let them kill each other off.

A fair point.

 Grey Templar wrote:
With only 2 bystanders killed, I'm actually slightly impressed. The cartel's certaintly weren't trying to minimize civilian casualities(unlike what our military does)

Oh I dunno about that.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes

Almost 200 dead children seems a bit high in a country we're nominally allies with.

I guess this is trying to minimize casualties also?

http://www.dw.de/iraq-occupation-could-link-to-high-child-cancer-rates/a-15615222

Pretty sure the extranational drone strikes are CIA, and as far as I can tell the CIA /likes/ killing civilians.

Everything I can find says that drones are piloted by the Air Force. In fact I believe there was an Air Force Officer on here recently who re-iterated that point. CIA may run the operation, but looks like Air Force is piloting it.

And if you really want to nitpick I'm sure I can find the civilian casualty stats from Iraq from regular US military forces, but thats really not pertinent to this discussion.

So there's no difference between a US solider and a cartel gun thug?

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So there's no difference between a US solider and a cartel gun thug?

I said that where exactly? Oh right I didn't.

Someone asked why we should care about this story. I responded with the bystanders being killed. Then it went off-topic from there.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I wish they had gun shows like that around here.

That's always how I picture Texas, Fraz.

So, three truckoads of Mexican drug gunmen are dead and we're sad WHY? Let them kill each other off.

Because their wars for control of the drug trade have turned northern Mexico into a hell on Earth for everyone else that lives there. It also is a signal that drug users here have numbers to support with their money this kind of thing and lack of compassion enough for people to not care who dies as long as they get their drugs.

I like how you continue to blame drug users, without considering your own role in driving up the market price of drugs.

 dogma wrote:
I like how you continue to blame drug users, without considering your own role in driving up the market price of drugs.

"If only you'd make it legal, it wouldn't be a problem."

Well you know what... start following the law first, then maybe we can talk*. In the mean time, "recreational drug users" are the problem. They're the ones making the decision to continue funding these people. Not me. So stop trying to shift the blame.

*Not directed at you specifically, since I don't know if your an actual user of said drugs.

 djones520 wrote:
So stop trying to shift the blame.

No, I would rather distribute the blame equally.