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... and your long fangs are going to survive against all the stormtrooper firepower, how?

10 flamer hits and 6.5 hellgun shots puts down 5 and 2 wounds, respectively. If those long fangs were hiding behind a wall, rather than in area terrain, you're losing 4 long fangs before they get a shot in. Even if the remaining missile launcher guy hits all 10 guys (which isn't guaranteed), you're only killing 3 dudes in return, who will butcher the long fang in the next turn no problems.

In this case, you're spending 115 points to kill 48 points of stuff. Put the longfangs into better cover, and they'll do better, but they're hardly going to walk away with it.

That assumes they'll actually be able to deep strike into range. Because I'm fielding Imperial Guard, I get the option of using cheap models to screen my expensive ones. Especially because I'm fielding a blob with a Rune Priest. In practice, I expect you to kill about 20-30 guardsmen.

Edit: And even if you manage to kill that Long Fang squad, you've spent an inordinate number of points to do so. On maximum size units that don't get to move after deep striking. I've got a lot of AP4 artillery...

 Ailaros wrote:
10 flamer hits

Why are we being extremely generous and assuming that your flamers each hit the entire long fang squad?

Corollax wrote:
The problem with that argument is that Space Wolves have some of the best HQ and Troop choices out there. Rune Priests are a fantastic escort for a 40- or 50-man blob squad, and Grey Hunters are some of the best Marines around.

Not to mention Long Fangs. If you're looking for cost-effective Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher spam, you can't find much better.

Except Guard doesn't really need more Dakka and Rune Preists for blob Guard is great, if you run blob Guard (doesn't Azrael or someone give his entire unit a 4+ invul save too). If I really wanted MEQ allies for my Guard I would probably get something heavily CC oriented, bloodletters, death company, Bile and some Khornate CSM. Something that I can trust to delay, if not destroy outright a tough enemy CC unit.

I wouldn't use them in bulk, Peregrine's and MrMoustaffa's tactics are best IMO. 5 men, 2 meltas, airborne assault, deep strike, pop a vehicle, then die-fairly reliably, in my experience. I don't usually use them with plasmas, as I'd prefer Marbo if going after infantry.

Looking at damage output only doesn't make sense for stormtroopers. A stormtrooper is roughly a veteran with caparace armour and a souped up gun worth say 12 pts. The other 4 pts you pay for getting the strategic deployment options. If you don't have a plan for the stormtroopers that uses these options, get veterans instead!

For me a unit of 5 long fangs would be an ideal target for stormtroopers. If I run a 10 man unit I usually go double plasma and IF you land your deepstrike as intented you will get:

8 hotshots: 8 * 2 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 3.6 dead marines.
2 plas: 2 * 2 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 2.2 dead marines.

If in area cover numbers are somewhat worse.

Now spending 200pts to kill 100pts of longfangs is not that great, but...

... those longfangs won' t be hurting anyone no more.
... someone has to turn around to deal with the stormtroopers. This is what you pay the extra 4 pts for! To mess with the enemy's plans.

The big question mark for me is the IF above. Spending 200 pts on something that lands on spot "only" 5 times out of 9 is just slightly too risky for me. That's also why I prefer plasma for this duty. They do better than flamers if they scatter.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
10 flamer hits

Why are we being extremely generous and assuming that your flamers each hit the entire long fang squad?

I too am interested in this.

Ailaros seems to have interesting views on how to mathhammer unit spacing. One day, a Large Blast Template only covers 2-3 guys, the next two flamers both hit a full Longfang squad?

(Or am I misinterpreting, and that was 10 flamer hits from 30 stormtroopers?)

Not to mention the assumption that the hell guns are being fired at Long Fangs out in the open rather than in ruins or area terrain. I think the last time I deployed Long Fangs out in the open was back in the Clinton administration.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I think the last time I deployed Long Fangs out in the open was back in the Clinton administration.

lol is there some type of causal link between Clinton and deploying Long Fangs in the open?

 Griddlelol wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I think the last time I deployed Long Fangs out in the open was back in the Clinton administration.

lol is there some type of causal link between Clinton and deploying Long Fangs in the open?

That both were upwards of a decade ago?

I think that Ailaros might have let some plastic glue get mixed in with his template markers. I can only assume his flamer template has been permanently attached to an apocalypse blast template.

If you want 10 deep-striking guardsmen with a lot of special weapons, why not use some allied Elysian Veterans? They are troops, so they score. They are battle brothers with standard IG, and did I mention they score? Plus they get 3 special weapons instead of just 2.

A vet squad with 3x Plasma is only 125pts. 20 more then a 5 man stormtrooper squad. Then you can also give them Carapace if you want.

I guess an allied list would look something like:

Allied Detachment: 315pts.
HQ: ECCS: Homing Beacon, Plamagun: 80pts

Troops: EVS: 3x Melta: 110pts
EVS: 3x Plasma: 125pts.

It does roughly the same job, and anyone deepstriking within 12in of the ECCS gets to use airborne assault. Plus its cheaper, it can also score and has more special weapons.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
If you want 10 deep-striking guardsmen with a lot of special weapons, why not use some allied Elysian Veterans?

1) Lower accuracy on their deep strike.

2) Many IG players already have their allies slot filled (often by a marine army to lead infantry blobs), so if they want deep strike melta/plasma it has to come from storm troopers.

3) They're playing with a group with a "no FW" house rule.

1. Its practically the same accuracy since you have to bring a CCS, who will have a homing beacon.

2. That is a valid point. I'm personally not a fan of it.

3. That is also a valid, but lame point.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
1. Its practically the same accuracy since you have to bring a CCS, who will have a homing beacon.

2. That is a valid point. I'm personally not a fan of it.

3. That is also a valid, but lame point.

1. What are the rules for homing beacons? I imagine you would have to be within a certain distance of the homing beacon, which would require you stay close to the battle lines (defeating) or requires that the CCS deepstrike first.

2. I prefer using allies to actually help the army as a whole instead of just being suicide units.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
1. Its practically the same accuracy since you have to bring a CCS, who will have a homing beacon.

This requires that the CCS is on the table. So either:

1) You have to deploy the CCS at the start of the game, limiting your deep strike options to places you could get normal troops to instead of things like rear armor on that Manticore parked in the corner.

or

2) You have to hope you get lucky with your reserve rolls and have the CCS arrive first while the vets stay in reserve, get a good scatter roll with the CCS, and then have the CCS survive a full turn of shooting/assault without losing the beacon.

Actually the rules just state that any model within 12inch gets to reroll the scatter dice. With out the requirements that it be on the table a full turn. So DS the CSS and have a 2foot bubble that give airborne assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was just pointing out something for Ailaros sine he doesn't like space marine allies. Its something to think about since he has an ally spot open and its has more fluff backing then Space Marine Blobs.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Actually the rules just state that any model within 12inch gets to reroll the scatter dice. With out the requirements that it be on the table a full turn. So DS the CSS and have a 2foot bubble that give airborne assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was just pointing out something for Ailaros sine he doesn't like space marine allies. Its something to think about since he has an ally spot open and its has more fluff backing then Space Marine Blobs.

You still have to deepstrike within 12 inches of the target and risk having a deepstrike mishap, plus it is easier to place 5 models when deepstriking than 10. Overall there is nothing inherently wrong with the Elysians, the thing is I would rather use them to clear backfield objectives, deepstriking two vet squads with flamers (or plasma) and a command squad to rip apart some Orks or something.

I have been running storm troopers recently. I gave two squads that i use.

1. Standard five man with two Melta. Suicide, usually to a land raider or any other high armor target.

2. Standard five man. Plasma gun x2 and plasma pistol. These guys hunt down termites or other 2+ save guys. Another target in my local area is the thunder fire cannon. Thatthinghasto go.

Both are run as suicide. If they make it past a turn I consider it good. Best I have ever had with Themis when they deep stroked in, shot up a bunch of Loottas, and sent them running.

These are all very nice tactics (and as far as I can tell, some of these are situational. Some good for one list, the others good against a different list) and I do use allies, Dark Angels (though I haven't got to the point of getting any of the named HQs) or vanilla Space Marines (I have Vulkan He'stan to lead them)/ The most common army I play against are CSM and the guy I usually play against almost always fields Typhus attached to termies that he would DS in, Plague Marines as his troop choice, and Obliterators at his back throwing pain at my army every turn.
I was planning on getting (or converting models to) the Storm Troopers to get the Obliterators via DS as the Plague Marines and Typhus' squad makes getting to them a challenge for my army which is mostly a blob army (We usually play the "Beat-the-gak-outta-each-other-until-we-run-out-of-turns/troops" games). Thanks a lot for helping me with this!