Khorne spares the weak?

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**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
To the OP

It comes from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine 2nd edition. It is on page 54 under Khorne the Blood God.

Here's what it says about it:

"Khorne is the god of anger and destruction, the warrior god of Chaos whose bellows of rage echo throughout time and space. He sits upon a great throne of brass atop a mountainous pile of bleached skulls. Whenever a champion of Khorne is slain in battle his skull is added to the pile, which slowly grows higher and higher. Khorne is a fighting god and his daemons and mortal Champions are amongst the most potent warriors of all. Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood. Khorne's great delight is battle and the spilling of blood"

So yeah, that was the way Khorne was presented in Epic.

Thank you for that. Very interesting, cause I just finished reading the Slaves to Darkness book (the one with actual pics of the choas gods) which came out around the same time as this and it also takes the majority view that Khorne is only about mindless slaughter. I guess GW decided the mindless slaughter part was more Grimdark

Anyone else kinda wish they'd keep this "noble demon" aspect of Khorne, if only because it makes him most complex and contradictory in his nature?

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Yep, I feel that way. I much prefer the version of Khorne from Epic because it makes sense more than the current version, for the exact reasons you gave. To me, the army as it is currently presented is just silly. I prefer my World Eaters Chaos Space Marines to worship this version of Khorne. It gives them more purpose other than " kill, kill, kill"....which is rather boring if you ask me. Also, with the new rules for Chaos Space Marine characters having to challenge, this version of Khorne makes more sense.

Khorne is a chaos god that embodies all that you guys say. but he still represents above all else the primal force of murder, hate and all that. Those are his main attributes and one's that he wants cause they make him stronger. The gods of chaos are not good, though they may have positive aspects. They care nothing for the races of the galaxy in the way we want.

Except that hate isn't a "primal force" anymore than "pride" or "honor" are. Killing and murder certainly are, but hate is an emotion, something 99% of the creatures on the planet don't experience, while killing is an instinctive action nearly every living thing on the planet does.. If Khorne is the god of hate and fury, he should equally be the god of Honor and Pride. I don't mind Khorne being a god of Hate, I just don't like how most of the fluff had him being completely bound by it while ignoring the other emotional aspects that comprise him. But hey, I guess if its Grimdark

**Corporal_Reznov**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
To the OP

It comes from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine 2nd edition. It is on page 54 under Khorne the Blood God.

Here's what it says about it:

"Khorne is the god of anger and destruction, the warrior god of Chaos whose bellows of rage echo throughout time and space. He sits upon a great throne of brass atop a mountainous pile of bleached skulls. Whenever a champion of Khorne is slain in battle his skull is added to the pile, which slowly grows higher and higher. Khorne is a fighting god and his daemons and mortal Champions are amongst the most potent warriors of all. Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood. Khorne's great delight is battle and the spilling of blood"

So yeah, that was the way Khorne was presented in Epic.

Thank you for that. Very interesting, cause I just finished reading the Slaves to Darkness book (the one with actual pics of the choas gods) which came out around the same time as this and it also takes the majority view that Khorne is only about mindless slaughter. I guess GW decided the mindless slaughter part was more Grimdark

Anyone else kinda wish they'd keep this "noble demon" aspect of Khorne, if only because it makes him most complex and contradictory in his nature?

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Yep, I feel that way. I much prefer the version of Khorne from Epic because it makes sense more than the current version, for the exact reasons you gave. To me, the army as it is currently presented is just silly. I prefer my World Eaters Chaos Space Marines to worship this version of Khorne. It gives them more purpose other than " kill, kill, kill"....which is rather boring if you ask me. Also, with the new rules for Chaos Space Marine characters having to challenge, this version of Khorne makes more sense.

Khorne is a chaos god that embodies all that you guys say. but he still represents above all else the primal force of murder, hate and all that. Those are his main attributes and one's that he wants cause they make him stronger. The gods of chaos are not good, though they may have positive aspects. They care nothing for the races of the galaxy in the way we want.

Except that hate isn't a "primal force" anymore than "pride" or "honor" are. Killing and murder certainly are, but hate is an emotion, something 99% of the creatures on the planet don't experience, while killing is an instinctive action nearly every living thing on the planet does.. If Khorne is the god of hate and fury, he should equally be the god of Honor and Pride. I don't mind Khorne being a god of Hate, I just don't like how most of the fluff had him being completely bound by it while ignoring the other emotional aspects that comprise him. But hey, I guess if its Grimdark

a lot of people feel hate or anger, that hate or anger doesn't turn into blood lusting killing but its there. Really I can't explain it. just read the quotes I posted. The books come from a book that is written from the perspective of Chaos.

**Lynata**

Since when is "honour" an emotion?

Compassion is an emotion, and it may cause a warrior to stay his hand before killing the opponent. Honour is a thing that people made up in an effort to bring a sense of order into the chaos of mindless killing.

Pride is an emotion, too, and it may cause a warrior to follow a code of honour because he considers himself better than those who don't. Ultimately, however, this sense of superiority can be twisted into making said warrior really believe himself to be better and anyone else unworthy of existence, good only for sacrifice or slavery.

And I think this is actually what the influence of Chaos would do to honourable warriors - slowly twisting their minds and values until they resemble the force they have sworn themselves to more and more.

(sidenote: isn't Pride more in Slaanesh's domain?)

Also, I wouldn't be so sure regarding animals being incapable of feeling hate.

**Graphite**

Stormboyz of Khorne, from "Freebooterz", seemed to be attracted more by Khorne's insistance on continuing discipline and martial honour rather than bloodshed. After all, if you're an Ork, it's not difficult to find a fight so you will have no incentive to go over to Chaos.

It's OLD fluff, though. As is everything else that doesn't regard Khorne as a gibbering madman, unfortunately. However, in Fantasy he also has a bit of a sideline as being Khaine, god of murder (the lines are blurry, but it's pretty definitley an aspect of the same god) who doesn't have any pretentions to martial virtue.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Lynata wrote:
Since when is "honour" an emotion?

Compassion is an emotion, and it may cause a warrior to stay his hand before killing the opponent. Honour is a thing that people made up in an effort to bring a sense of order into the chaos of mindless killing.

Pride is an emotion, too, and it may cause a warrior to follow a code of honour because he considers himself better than those who don't. Ultimately, however, this sense of superiority can be twisted into making said warrior really believe himself to be better and anyone else unworthy of existence, good only for sacrifice or slavery.

And I think this is actually what the influence of Chaos would do to honourable warriors - slowly twisting their minds and values until they resemble the force they have sworn themselves to more and more.

(sidenote: isn't Pride more in Slaanesh's domain?)

Also, I wouldn't be so sure regarding animals being incapable of feeling hate.

You're right, pride is technically Slaanesh is domain, but since Honor and Pride are somewhat linked, I talked about it here.

And perhaps emotion is the wrong term, but what I meant that it was, like hate, honor is a higher concept/action and not a primal force like killing is.

And yes, certainly some other animals can feel hate, but the VAST majority do not (I'm including single-celled bacteria here).

**Bellzo**

Also, I've read that the warp is a reflection of the state of the universe. As the Universe gets more and more violent and irrational, so would the entities that rule the ether.

**Psienesis**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Realm of Chaos, the original books, covered the big four and their other, positive aspects.

It says in that book that "Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that mortals are killing and dying in his name". It also says that he is the "bloody-handed god of carnage and slaughter".

The only mention it makes of Khorne's "martial pride" is when discussing his hatred of Slaanesh, "whose prancing fopperies offend the Blood God's sense of martial pride".

**TechmarineNic**

Errr, it says mindless. Meaning he doesn`t give an orks bottom on who he kills...

**Void__Dragon**

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
To the OP

It comes from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine 2nd edition. It is on page 54 under Khorne the Blood God.

Here's what it says about it:

"Khorne is the god of anger and destruction, the warrior god of Chaos whose bellows of rage echo throughout time and space. He sits upon a great throne of brass atop a mountainous pile of bleached skulls. Whenever a champion of Khorne is slain in battle his skull is added to the pile, which slowly grows higher and higher. Khorne is a fighting god and his daemons and mortal Champions are amongst the most potent warriors of all. Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood. Khorne's great delight is battle and the spilling of blood"

So yeah, that was the way Khorne was presented in Epic.

I'd exalt you to infinity if you could.

I am so happy to hear that somewhere, Khorne's martial honor is touched on. I had long feared that such aspects of Khorne were simply fanwank, to see that they have a basis is wonderful.

**Lynata**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:And perhaps emotion is the wrong term, but what I meant that it was, like hate, honor is a higher concept/action and not a primal force like killing is.

Which is why I think honour would have little effect on the Warp (and thus the Chaos Gods), as it is affected chiefly by emotion - although I recall that thoughts and memories can play a role there, too. The 6E rulebook has an interesting short story regarding this; a Navigator thinking about the Warp's nature, what can be found there now, and theorising about what he and all the others that travel through the Immaterium leave behind, and if maybe the Warp looked differently eons ago.

It almost sounds like the Warp being the galactic space dump where people unload their emotional trash, and now it's all dirty and grimy.

I guess hate could be seen as a "semi-emotion" in that it evokes anger against something.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:And yes, certainly some other animals can feel hate, but the VAST majority do not (I'm including single-celled bacteria here).

Fair enough.

**Void__Dragon**

Lynata wrote:
Agent_Tremolo wrote:Khorne is a primal force
This is so true - and not just for Khorne, but for all the Chaos Gods ... and the Warp itself.

It's not even "evil" per se. It just "is".

I disagree.

Khorne, and Chaos itself, is not a primal force. It originates from something.

Life in the galaxy itself, and to give an exact date, the latter years of the War in Heaven.

Chaos is not a primordial force essential to creation, the universe was fine before it existed in realspace terms. It is a reflection of humanity, and of all life in the galaxy, sans the Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons.

**Lynata**

Wasn't it said that the Warp is "the raw stuff of creation" or something, or am I mixing this up with another franchise? It's been quite a while since I read that, but I could see it work in a way that there is a much deeper connection between the Warp and life in realspace than just one feeding into the other, and I believe the Immaterium has always been there. It's just that there used to be a much thicker wall between it and realspace.

Perhaps the use of Warp engines - penetrating the Veil to abuse the Empyrean for travel - has punched holes into this once-solid barrier. And it gets worse with every millennium that some species uses such engines. Now that'd be a grim thought.

Void__Dragon wrote:It is a reflection of humanity, and of all life in the galaxy, sans the Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons.

Pretty much what I mean. By being a reflection, it is "neutral" rather than being an inherently good or evil force.

On a sidenote, Tau don't register in the Warp as well, iirc.

**Melissia**

No. The weak exist to be sacrificed to Khorne-- their blood shall flow in to the lake upon which the Skull Throne rests, and their skulls shall be added to it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:
On a sidenote, Tau don't register in the Warp as well, iirc.

Tau register, it's just such a weak signal that it's little more than noise.

If imagine a human soul as a lit torch, with flame the size of a fist, while a psyker's soul is a raging bonfire big enough to hold a dozen people in it side by side, then imagine Tau as a single candle, with a flame smaller than one's pinky.

**Void__Dragon**

Lynata wrote:
Wasn't it said that the Warp is "the raw stuff of creation" or something, or am I mixing this up with another franchise? It's been quite a while since I read that, but I could see it work in a way that there is a much deeper connection between the Warp and life in realspace than just one feeding into the other, and I believe the Immaterium has always been there. It's just that there used to be a much thicker wall between it and realspace.

Perhaps the use of Warp engines - penetrating the Veil to abuse the Empyrean for travel - has punched holes into this once-solid barrier. And it gets worse with every millennium that some species uses such engines. Now that'd be a grim thought.

Void__Dragon wrote:It is a reflection of humanity, and of all life in the galaxy, sans the Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons.
Pretty much what I mean. By being a reflection, it is "neutral" rather than being an inherently good or evil force.

On a sidenote, Tau don't register in the Warp as well, iirc.

There is a huge distinction between Chaos and the Warp.

Chaos resides in the Warp, they are not synonymous.

The Immaterium has always been there, but Chaos did not exist until the desperate measures from the Old Ones and their manufactured species created it, unintentionally, while warring with the Necrons and their C'tan masters.

The Warp might be said to be a primal, fundamental force, but Khorne and the Dark Gods are not.

Tau, as Melissia pointed out, do have Warp signatures, but very small ones. Even the Orks have powerful Warp signatures, but Chaos rarely is fuelled by them. Gork and Mork have a pretty firm grasp on their flock. Tyranids, well, it depends on whether or not the Hive Mind really resides in the Warp, I forget.

AFAIK, only the Necrons and those with the Pariah Gene have zero Warp signatures. Oh, and the C'tan as well, they had always been beings solely of the Materium, more akin to fundamental aspects of the materium, than a true species.

**Lynata**

Void__Dragon wrote:The Immaterium has always been there, but Chaos did not exist until the desperate measures from the Old Ones and their manufactured species created it, unintentionally, while warring with the Necrons and their C'tan masters.

Is that from the new Necron Codex?
I always understood the Warp and Chaos be the same thing - a mass of psychic energy, malleable and reactive to outside influences.

**Melissia**

Whether or not the Pariah gene has no warp signature or more accurately has a "negative" signature depends on which lore you read.

**Void__Dragon**

Lynata wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:The Immaterium has always been there, but Chaos did not exist until the desperate measures from the Old Ones and their manufactured species created it, unintentionally, while warring with the Necrons and their C'tan masters.
Is that from the new Necron Codex?
I always understood the Warp and Chaos be the same thing - a mass of psychic energy, malleable and reactive to outside influences.

No, it is from the 3e one. This information has not been retconned to my recollection.

Chaos is part of the Warp. It can't be all of it. How else would the Eldar pantheon have existed? Or Gork and Mork?

**Melissia**

That's my understanding as well. The warp existed before chaos' chaos is just a part of it, inadverdently created by the Old Ones and their psychic pets during their war with the Necrontyr and the C'tan.

**Super Ready**

I understood the opposite... that Chaos and the Warp are pretty much one and the same, but that the Chaos Gods as we know them are shaped within it by outside influence. Remember that the 4 main Chaos Gods, Gork and Mork, and the Eldar Gods are far far FAR from being the only entities within - they're just the most powerful and most obvious examples.

...hey, I found a quote to support this

though I realise it counteracts what's gone before, it's in the current Daemons Codex (and I believe the one before it), page 6:

"...this psychic expanse is known as the Realm of Chaos, the Warp, the Immaterium or Warp space. (...) It is Chaos in its truest sense (...) Warp space is Chaos, Chaos is Warp space; the two are indivisible."

**Lynata**

Void__Dragon wrote:Chaos is part of the Warp. It can't be all of it. How else would the Eldar pantheon have existed? Or Gork and Mork?

With the Eldar pantheon or Gork and Mork being "Chaos Gods" as well, of course.

I should probably point out that I see "Chaos" as being nothing more than the feeble attempt of mortals to define something they don't really understand - namely the Warp reacting to them.
It's probably a matter of definition -> whether you see Chaos as more like an organisation (the 4 Gods, "The Ruinous Powers" ) or as a natural force and counterpart to Order.

Will try to get a look at the 'cron Codex for some new insight as my own reading on the subject of the Immaterium is rather limited. Thanks for naming the source.

**Serevor**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Lynata wrote:
Krellnus wrote:Khorne is also the god of martial honour. Just as Tzeentch is also the god of hope and Nurgle the god of stability.
In the eyes of some of the aforementioned worshippers, no doubt.

I hear this all over the place (and, as a sometime-Tzeentchian even agree with it... but only when I've got my witch hat on), but can someone give us a page reference?

Canon issues aside, I'd love to hear where people get these ideas.

I'm the saviour of two boards at the same time.

Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned - page 7

A Chaos Power thus represents a particular and generally extreme aspect of the traits shown by the living. The traits which characterise the Chaos Powers are insanity, violence, ambition, greed, and others of a kind which are often felt to typify the worst of human nature. But this is not wholly the case, and Chaos Powers also exist which typify fellowship, charity, law and other redeeming characteristics. Indeed, no Chaos Power is wholly one sided, for no human or other creature is wholly good or evil, and likewise neither are their shadow-selves. For example, along with violence and bloodshed Khorne has inherited the warrior's sense of honour and martial virtue. Nurgle may typify decay and disease, but he also embodies the human hope and energy that defies the inevitable.

**Furyou Miko**

Wait, Nurgle is hope?!

All this discussion of the "Origins of the Chaos Gods" is quite cute, especially since in several places it states that daemons consider linear Time to be an amusing concept.

That's how a Slaaneshi cultist guided the Eldar down the path of ruin to create Slaanesh, who then told him to guide the Eldar...

**Void__Dragon**

Chaos has a date of birth, no matter the pretensions Daemons have concerning themselves.

**Serevor**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Wait, Nurgle is hope?!

All this discussion of the "Origins of the Chaos Gods" is quite cute, especially since in several places it states that daemons consider linear Time to be an amusing concept.

That's how a Slaaneshi cultist guided the Eldar down the path of ruin to create Slaanesh, who then told him to guide the Eldar...

English is an awesome language, but I always feel like it lacks depth.
I'd say Nurgle is more about the transcendance of Death. The hope that I can go beyond my mortal limits, that I could escape fate (when Tzeentch is all about manipulating fate, which is why they "hate" each other). That perticular hope is the death of all hopes, because if I can escape death, there is nothing left for me to hope, because everything is nothing of importance to me.
But in the end, immortality sucks. We would all succomb to procrastination and do nothing for all eternity.

The part on the linearity of time makes a lot of sense actually. Reminds me of philosophy class.

**Furyou Miko**

Void__Dragon wrote:Chaos has a date of birth, no matter the pretensions Daemons have concerning themselves.

You should read Architect of Fate. While I was disappointed because I wanted to read about Fateweaver and he's conspicuous by his absence, it really does give a good accounting of the Warp's unique relationship in regards to time.

As for English' lack of depth, I know what you mean. >< It could be worse, though. To make 'despair' in Japanese you have to basically write 'Hope' and then use a prefix that inverts the following word (Zetsu). Which while it makes for some great puns (like a Dr. named Death and a Teacher named Despair - their mutual family name, 'Itoshiki' looks like 'Zetsu' when written horizontally) isn't so great at describing abstract concepts.

**Serevor**

Yeah, well, you know, I'm fine with french.

**Void__Dragon**

Furyou Miko wrote:
You should read Architect of Fate. While I was disappointed because I wanted to read about Fateweaver and he's conspicuous by his absence, it really does give a good accounting of the Warp's unique relationship in regards to time.

As for English' lack of depth, I know what you mean. >< It could be worse, though. To make 'despair' in Japanese you have to basically write 'Hope' and then use a prefix that inverts the following word (Zetsu). Which while it makes for some great puns (like a Dr. named Death and a Teacher named Despair - their mutual family name, 'Itoshiki' looks like 'Zetsu' when written horizontally) isn't so great at describing abstract concepts.

Why? I already know that the birth of Chaos occurred during the War in Heaven.

Chaos is a reflection of the emotions of sentient beings within the galaxy. While Chaos might have a perception of time that is non-linear (And indeed, so did the C'tan), Chaos, by realspace terms as I said, did not exist until 65,000,000ish years before the 41st Millennium.

**Furyou Miko**

Yes, but you seem to be missing the part where Chaos also existed before that point because there's no such thing as linear time in the Warp, and the Warp has always existed. Hence why Chaos Gods (and daemons) can cause their own births, like Slaanesh did.

That's why warp travel is useful as FTL, and why you need something like a Navigator to get you anywhere. The Navigator's role is to guide the ship through the Warp currents where relative time is slowest (or maybe fastest, converting relative time is confusing).

**Amaya**

No, we perceive it as linear, but our perception is incorrect.

**Void__Dragon**

I disagree, we perceive it is linear, and we created Chaos, therefore, it is certainly our perception which must be correct.

The child does not make the rules for the parent.