Khorne spares the weak?

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**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

I keep reading on TVtropes that apparently Khorne wasn't always the god of mindless slaughter and would sometimes spare the weak non-combatants, and that he would sick his hounds on people who would kill the weak or ran from battle. Were exactly did it say this? I'm going through 1st edition rulebook (rogue trader) and it doesn't mention this at all. Is TV tropes wrong once again? They've been incorrect on 40K fluff before...

**Lynata**

Khorne is the Chaos-God of mindless slaughter, and as mentioned in the Chaos Codex the Bloodthirsters are a direct representation of his essence.
There is an important difference between Khornate daemons and Khornate worshippers, however, as the latter (in not being avatars of Khorne's essence) actually allows for a certain range of personalities where you may well have warriors that operate on some sort of honour code.

The idea that Khorne himself wouldn't slaughter the weak stems, or so I believe, from "Chaos Apologists" who would prefer to see Chaos as a viable alternative to the oppressive Imperium rather than being the essence of pure evil. (although even this is just due to the input rather than being an innate quality .. in itself, the Warp is neutral, it has just been twisted into what it is today because the galaxy in 40k is a gakky place)

I'm operating solely on what I read in GW's books here, however. It is well possible that certain licensed products may depict a different story. In 40k, the absence of "canon" means that even official material may depict a variety of different interpretations on any given subject, as there is little difference between the various novel authors and the fans - both concerning the validity of their ideas as well as their personal vision of the setting.

**Krellnus**

Khorne is also the god of martial honour.
Just as Tzeentch is also the god of hope and Nurgle the god of stability.

**Corporal_Reznov**

The way I see it and rationalize from the various sources is that Khorne doesn't care where the blood comes from as long as it comes, but he likes the blood of warriors more then the blood of weaklings. Doesn't mean he won't accept the blood of weaklings.

**Haunter!**

The weak are not spared, they just aren't worthy opponents so you won't gain much of big red's favor. If you come across a group of unarmed civilians, a Khornite warrior will kill them because killing is killing, but if a worthy foe comes along they'll shift their attention to take on the challenge.

I remember something about the hounds of Khorne being unleashed on cowards than fled in the previous Daemons codex, but I don't recall the specifics. I don't know if that was copied into the new codex.

**Lynata**

Krellnus wrote:Khorne is also the god of martial honour. Just as Tzeentch is also the god of hope and Nurgle the god of stability.

In the eyes of some of the aforementioned worshippers, no doubt.

**Furyou Miko**

Lynata wrote:
Krellnus wrote:Khorne is also the god of martial honour. Just as Tzeentch is also the god of hope and Nurgle the god of stability.
In the eyes of some of the aforementioned worshippers, no doubt.

I hear this all over the place (and, as a sometime-Tzeentchian even agree with it... but only when I've got my witch hat on), but can someone give us a page reference?

Canon issues aside, I'd love to hear where people get these ideas.

**Corporal_Reznov**

I will post these two things:

Black Crusade rpg Tome of Fate 6 wrote:The entity or sentient warp force known as Tzeentch is
perhaps the most enigmatic of the so-called Chaos Gods
or Dark Powers. Tzeentch, the Changer of Ways, is the
god of sorcery, scheming, mutation, and change. He embodies
mortals’ desires for evolution, improvement, innovation, and
progress as well as their dreams of wealth, prosperity, and a
better tomorrow. While many perceive these motivations as
healthy, wholesome, and perhaps even necessary to mortal
existence, Tzeentch, the Great Conspirator, works to corrupt the
aspirations and ambitions of humankind and xenos alike, and to
leverage these hopes and dreams for his own nefarious ends.

keep in mind that Black crusade is written from the pov of Chaos. But I feel that it fits Tzeentch's mo just fine.

from the 6th edition Chaos daemon codex:

There is more but I can't post a pic of the more cause the pic's size is too big

**Arcsquad12**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I keep reading on TVtropes that apparently Khorne wasn't always the god of mindless slaughter and would sometimes spare the weak non-combatants, and that he would sick his hounds on people who would kill the weak or ran from battle. Were exactly did it say this? I'm going through 1st edition rulebook (rogue trader) and it doesn't mention this at all. Is TV tropes wrong once again? They've been incorrect on 40K fluff before...

TvTropes has more hyperbole than a freaking codex. Don't trust half the things you read there, it's just people who have no idea what editing or self restraint mean.

**Time 2 Roll**

I read the same thing about khrone in the lexicanium just yesterday and it puzzled me as well.

**washout77**

To me, no matter how Chaos of a god you are, every god has a "good side". Khorne, while obsessed with blood and killing, has honor. Nurgle is the god of death and disease, but with death comes life. This is where the god conflicts start to happen. because one gods good side conflicts with another gods bad side. Khorne hates Slaanesh because he believes Slaanesh to be a pitiful god without honor or martial pride (probably because of rape, but ya know)

I have always read it as Khorne does love killing things, but he (himself, not his followers. They are obsessed) won't kill things that don't give him a proper fight/challenge. His followers tend to overexagerate this and kill ALL the things, much like some religious radicals do today

**Corporal_Reznov**

washout77 wrote:
To me, no matter how Chaos of a god you are, every god has a "good side". Khorne, while obsessed with blood and killing, has honor. Nurgle is the god of death and disease, but with death comes life. This is where the god conflicts start to happen. because one gods good side conflicts with another gods bad side. Khorne hates Slaanesh because he believes Slaanesh to be a pitiful god without honor or martial pride (probably because of rape, but ya know)

I have always read it as Khorne does love killing things, but he (himself, not his followers. They are obsessed) won't kill things that don't give him a proper fight/challenge. His followers tend to overexagerate this and kill ALL the things, much like some religious radicals do today

Doesn't change that the Chaos Gods are bad news.

**Harriticus**

The Gods "good sides" are still twisted. They take positive emotions and turn them back on you. If you think any good will come with "Grandfather Nurgle" caring about you you're mistaken, unless you think turning into a disease ridden bloated husk is a great thing.

**Corporal_Reznov**

Harriticus wrote:
The Gods "good sides" are still twisted. They take positive emotions and turn them back on you. If you think any good will come with "Grandfather Nurgle" caring about you you're mistaken, unless you think turning into a disease ridden bloated husk is a great thing.

This. Although Nurgle probably considers what he does to be a good thing and a blessing on others by him

.

**Evileyes**

Don't ever offer up khorne a peasant as tribute. He will spawn your ass for the insult

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

So there has never been a GW source, or even a BL novels, that talks about Khorne sparring the weak? not even in Fantasy?

**Lynata**

Dug up some quotes from the 4E Chaos Codex for yer convenience:

"Khorne is the Blood God, Lord of War, Taker of Skulls. He is wrath incarnate, filled with never-ending lust to dominate and destroy, to conquer and kill. [...] Under Khorne's urgings, his endless tide of soldiers are whipped into a blood frenzy and will fall upon each other in their desire to spill blood if no other foe can be found."

"Khorne is the Blood God, an angry and murderous God of Chaos whose bellows of insatiable rage echo throughout time and space. His great brass throne sits upon a mountain of skulls in the midst of a plain of splintered bones and lakes of blood, the remains of his followers slain in battle and those killed in his name. Khorne embodies mindless and absolute violence, destroying everyone and everything within reach, slaying both friend and foe alike.
The followers of Khorne are always ferocious warriors, for the Blood God abhors the trickery of magic and cowardly sorcerers. Men turn to Khorne for the power to conquer, to defeat their enemies in battle, to wreak bloody vengeance and to attain unaimaginable martial prowess. The most fanatical and dedicated to his followers, those trapped fully within his clawed grasp, know that he desires only wild slaughter. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it does."

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:So there has never been a GW source, or even a BL novels, that talks about Khorne sparring the weak? not even in Fantasy?

I'd almost be surprised if this were the case, though. At this level of detail, there is usually at least one book that throws up a contradiction. It's all about the writers' interpretations of the setting...

**Agent_Tremolo**

washout77 wrote:
To me, no matter how Chaos of a god you are, every god has a "good side". Khorne, while obsessed with blood and killing, has honor. Nurgle is the god of death and disease, but with death comes life. This is where the god conflicts start to happen. because one gods good side conflicts with another gods bad side. Khorne hates Slaanesh because he believes Slaanesh to be a pitiful god without honor or martial pride (probably because of rape, but ya know)

I have always read it as Khorne does love killing things, but he (himself, not his followers. They are obsessed) won't kill things that don't give him a proper fight/challenge. His followers tend to overexagerate this and kill ALL the things, much like some religious radicals do today

I read it the other way around.

Comradery, honor, patriotism, militarism and other attitudes typically associated with war and the military are human cultural constructs. Khorne is a primal force, the embodiment of change through violent destruction, and as such is entirely alien to the norms and morals of mortals.

In the end, Khorne is about rage, bloodshed and destruction. That's why an individual such as Khârn counts with the god's favor: By spilling the blood of friend, foe and innocent alike, he has taken his worship of Khorne beyond the petty constraints of human morality and culture, moving closer to the true intent of his patron deity. He's doing it right, and Khorne is pleased.

**Lynata**

Agent_Tremolo wrote:Khorne is a primal force

This is so true - and not just for Khorne, but for all the Chaos Gods ... and the Warp itself.

It's not even "evil" per se. It just "is".

**SpookyRuben**

Khorne sparing the weak etc... yes this has been stated in official GW material. I am at sea right now so I'm not able to look on the bookshelf, but if memory serves this was stated under Khorne's bio in the Second Edition Space Marine supliments Renegades.

Over time Khorne was retconned into a more primal force as folks has described.

**Corporal_Reznov**

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
washout77 wrote:
To me, no matter how Chaos of a god you are, every god has a "good side". Khorne, while obsessed with blood and killing, has honor. Nurgle is the god of death and disease, but with death comes life. This is where the god conflicts start to happen. because one gods good side conflicts with another gods bad side. Khorne hates Slaanesh because he believes Slaanesh to be a pitiful god without honor or martial pride (probably because of rape, but ya know)

I have always read it as Khorne does love killing things, but he (himself, not his followers. They are obsessed) won't kill things that don't give him a proper fight/challenge. His followers tend to overexagerate this and kill ALL the things, much like some religious radicals do today

I read it the other way around.

Comradery, honor, patriotism, militarism and other attitudes typically associated with war and the military are human cultural constructs. Khorne is a primal force, the embodiment of change through violent destruction, and as such is entirely alien to the norms and morals of mortals.

In the end, Khorne is about rage, bloodshed and destruction. That's why an individual such as Khârn counts with the god's favor: By spilling the blood of friend, foe and innocent alike, he has taken his worship of Khorne beyond the petty constraints of human morality and culture, moving closer to the true intent of his patron deity. He's doing it right, and Khorne is pleased.

But people do influence the warp and so its possble that Khorne has taken on those aspects. But as I already said, I feel that Khorne cares not where the blood comes from. He just prefers the blood of warriors to the blood of weaklings.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Realm of Chaos, the original books, covered the big four and their other, positive aspects.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Realm of Chaos, the original books, covered the big four and their other, positive aspects.

I'm reading the Slaves to Darkness book right now and haven't found anything yet.

The reason I started this thread was because something that really bugs me about Khorne's "kill everyone and everything including friends and allies" mentality is: How are his armies able to even function. If Khorne looks favorably upon people who kill their allies, why aren't his daemons and his mortal followers simply killing each other all the time? How is Khorne and his followers able to even form competent armies if (according to the most recent fluff) the urge to kill is so strong they start killing each other and themselves as soon as their isn't anyone else left to kill?

**Corporal_Reznov**

From Black Crusade core rulebook pg 14-15

Khorne is the Blood God, the angry and murderous lord of battle.
He is said to be the warrior god whose bellows of insatiable rage
echo through time and space back to the first act of violence
ever committed. Devotees of the Ruinous Powers have debated
forcefully about the primogenesis of the Blood God for millennia.
Some hold that it was the will of Khorne that fi rst impelled a
primitive to seize a rock and brain one of his fellows in a fit
of murderous rage, thereby triggering the spiral of violence that
fed the Chaos Power into the formidable force it has become.

Others declare that it was the first mortal impulses of fury that
breathed life into Khorne, and that he represents the primitive
lust for violence lurking in every mortal heart. However, the true
disciples of Khorne care nothing for such debates as they are
fully engaged with slaying all that come to hand.
Khorne’s followers are the most ferocious warriors in
the universe, and the Blood God abhors magic, sorcery and
other unworthy tricks. The blood of magi is said to make a
particularly welcome sacrifi ce to Khorne’s unquenchable thirst.

Some justify their slaughter through honour, bravery or pride
but the most fanatical know that only the bloodshed matters.

Khorne’s disciples believe that His great throne of brass
sits upon a mountain of skulls in the midst of a sea of blood,
evidence the sacrifi ce of his countless followers slain in battle and
the multitudes killed in his name. They hold that Khorne is the
Chaos Power that embodies mindless and absolute violence, the
wild blood lust that, once unleashed, yearns to destroy everyone
within reach whether they be friend or foe. Such true believers
are few in number and they grow fewer all the time as his
devoted followers gleefully send one another into his embrace,
knowing that Khorne cares not from where the blood flows.

Depictions of Khorne often show him as a titanic, armoured
fi gure covered from head to foot in plates of strange and alien
design. The fi gure’s armour is usually elaborately carved and
worked with a repeating skull motif while his head is covered
by a great winged helm showing a bestial, snarling face
beneath. In most images, Khorne bears a rune-covered sword
or axe, though in more primitive cultures he is often shown
only with fists or claw-like hands.

In spite his apparently self-destructive aspects Khorne is
overtly the most potent and active of all the Chaos Powers.
Endless wars and bloodshed in the mortal realm fuel it with
the skulls of the slain, constantly drawn into its raging depths.
Khorne needs no honeyed promises or convoluted plots to
draw mortals into his realm; the anger and fury lurking just
below their civilised demeanour is often more than enough.

The path to Khorne’s domain can be just as slippery as any
represented by the other, more subtle Ruinous Powers. The
instinct to violence is a necessary one in a hostile universe,
and is lauded in protectors or liberators.

Many societies must
literally fight to survive and they celebrate their members for
their ability to defend themselves and others.

So it is that soldiers, commanders, and even law enforcers
begin their slow slide into Khorne’s embrace with the noblest of
intentions. A desire to protect their loved ones warps gradually
into a determination to fi ght back against those that threaten
them. Martial pride and a sense of brotherhood are fostered to
protect against hostile outsiders, and the authorities direct the
urge to inflict harm against those designated as undesirable.
Under the banners of protection wars are begun that consume
whole populations, under the guise of efficiency bombs are
dropped and death camps are built, under the proclamation of
necessity billions of lives are destroyed.

Outside the constraints of the Corpse-God’s Imperium,
those that go into battle commonly beseech Khorne in one
of his warrior-god aspects to grant them some measure of his
boundless fury. Victories are dedicated to one of his many
names and defeats are repaid with blood sacrifices to win
back his favour. Leaders of opposing armies strive to show
that the favour of the Blood God is with them, and his
greatest Champions are capable of winning the support of
entire planets with the very rumour of their presence. Many
of Khorne’s mortal followers strive for conquest on a vast
scale by training armies and gathering fleets to hurl against
the universe. Their success or failure is a matter of no import
to him, as Khorne waxes strongest wherever mortal ambitions
clash, regardless of the outcome.

Khorne hates and despises the Chaos Power Slaanesh
above all others. The self-indulgent sensuality of the Prince
of Pleasure is an affront to the warrior instincts of Khorne.
The sense of duty, honour, and self-sacrifi ce that fuels part of
Khorne’s existence is an anathema to the followers of Slaanesh,
and the very antithesis of their own philosophy of selfindulgent
pleasure seeking. The daemonic servants of Khorne
and Slaanesh often attack each other on sight, and their mortal
followers are often no less eager to join battle.

**Roadkill Zombie**

To the OP

It comes from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine 2nd edition. It is on page 55 under Khorne the Blood God.

Here's what it says about it:

"Khorne is the god of anger and destruction, the warrior god of Chaos whose bellows of rage echo throughout time and space. He sits upon a great throne of brass atop a mountainous pile of bleached skulls. Whenever a champion of Khorne is slain in battle his skull is added to the pile, which slowly grows higher and higher. Khorne is a fighting god and his daemons and mortal Champions are amongst the most potent warriors of all. Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood. Khorne's great delight is battle and the spilling of blood"

So yeah, that was the way Khorne was presented in Epic.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
To the OP

It comes from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine 2nd edition. It is on page 54 under Khorne the Blood God.

Here's what it says about it:

"Khorne is the god of anger and destruction, the warrior god of Chaos whose bellows of rage echo throughout time and space. He sits upon a great throne of brass atop a mountainous pile of bleached skulls. Whenever a champion of Khorne is slain in battle his skull is added to the pile, which slowly grows higher and higher. Khorne is a fighting god and his daemons and mortal Champions are amongst the most potent warriors of all. Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood. Khorne's great delight is battle and the spilling of blood"

So yeah, that was the way Khorne was presented in Epic.

Thank you for that. Very interesting, cause I just finished reading the Slaves to Darkness book (the one with actual pics of the choas gods) which came out around the same time as this and it also takes the majority view that Khorne is only about mindless slaughter. I guess GW decided the mindless slaughter part was more Grimdark

Anyone else kinda wish they'd keep this "noble demon" aspect of Khorne, if only because it makes him most complex and contradictory in his nature?

**Roadkill Zombie**

Yep, I feel that way. I much prefer the version of Khorne from Epic because it makes sense more than the current version, for the exact reasons you gave. To me, the army as it is currently presented is just silly. I prefer my World Eaters Chaos Space Marines to worship this version of Khorne. It gives them more purpose other than " kill, kill, kill"....which is rather boring if you ask me. Also, with the new rules for Chaos Space Marine characters having to challenge, this version of Khorne makes more sense.

**Paint_To_Redemption**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Realm of Chaos, the original books, covered the big four and their other, positive aspects.

I have nothing to add to this debate. I just simply wanted to say that you Sir, have the best signature in existence.

**Corporal_Reznov**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
To the OP

It comes from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine 2nd edition. It is on page 54 under Khorne the Blood God.

Here's what it says about it:

"Khorne is the god of anger and destruction, the warrior god of Chaos whose bellows of rage echo throughout time and space. He sits upon a great throne of brass atop a mountainous pile of bleached skulls. Whenever a champion of Khorne is slain in battle his skull is added to the pile, which slowly grows higher and higher. Khorne is a fighting god and his daemons and mortal Champions are amongst the most potent warriors of all. Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood. Khorne's great delight is battle and the spilling of blood"

So yeah, that was the way Khorne was presented in Epic.

Thank you for that. Very interesting, cause I just finished reading the Slaves to Darkness book (the one with actual pics of the choas gods) which came out around the same time as this and it also takes the majority view that Khorne is only about mindless slaughter. I guess GW decided the mindless slaughter part was more Grimdark

Anyone else kinda wish they'd keep this "noble demon" aspect of Khorne, if only because it makes him most complex and contradictory in his nature?

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Yep, I feel that way. I much prefer the version of Khorne from Epic because it makes sense more than the current version, for the exact reasons you gave. To me, the army as it is currently presented is just silly. I prefer my World Eaters Chaos Space Marines to worship this version of Khorne. It gives them more purpose other than " kill, kill, kill"....which is rather boring if you ask me. Also, with the new rules for Chaos Space Marine characters having to challenge, this version of Khorne makes more sense.

Khorne is a chaos god that embodies all that you guys say. but he still represents above all else the primal force of murder, hate and all that. Those are his main attributes and one's that he wants cause they make him stronger. The gods of chaos are not good, though they may have positive aspects. They care nothing for the races of the galaxy in the way we want.

**Krellnus**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Lynata wrote:
Krellnus wrote:Khorne is also the god of martial honour. Just as Tzeentch is also the god of hope and Nurgle the god of stability.
In the eyes of some of the aforementioned worshippers, no doubt.

I hear this all over the place (and, as a sometime-Tzeentchian even agree with it... but only when I've got my witch hat on), but can someone give us a page reference?

Canon issues aside, I'd love to hear where people get these ideas.

Lexicanum wrote:Khorne is said to have inherited a martial nobility and honour, and considers the weak and helpless to be unworthy of his wrath.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Khorne#.UUa2j1e1WqM