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Thanks for the positive guys, I felt better after some sleep and some scotch.

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... that's a fair point.

I think ya'll would know that I really don't favor a government sponsor'ed abolition (because, that's even more governance).

Instead of perpetuating this stigma that you've clearing pointed out... those whom are avid pro-life ought to engage in adoption services, fund respectable orphanage, basically provide meaningful alternative to abortions.

You know, it's nice to be reminded that we are more alike than different.

Here's the basis of your stance and mine, you don't trust government, I don't trust big business. We both actually want hard working citizenry to do well, we both want our most vulnerable protected and enabled and we both want personal freedom and happiness for the nice folks and powerful deterrent for the nasty folks. We just see the threat to it in different places and perhaps, like the nature and nurture debate, the answer is that it's a little of both...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Stigma, underfunding, lack of regulation. Those are the things that allow places like this to spread like mold. The more certain states put pressure on their abortion clinics to close, the more shaky handed failed veterinarians with coat hangers will be operating on poor women in crackhouses as the rich simply travel outstate or eventually, abroad. The religious right cannot stop abortions, they can simply force them underground and enable this sort of thing.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, I don't think that would change the situation Whembly posted. That guy fits far more easily into the categories of horror-film-villain or sociopath-with-a-niche-opportunity than he does an underground abortion doctor.

 azazel the cat wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Stigma, underfunding, lack of regulation. Those are the things that allow places like this to spread like mold. The more certain states put pressure on their abortion clinics to close, the more shaky handed failed veterinarians with coat hangers will be operating on poor women in crackhouses as the rich simply travel outstate or eventually, abroad. The religious right cannot stop abortions, they can simply force them underground and enable this sort of thing.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, I don't think that would change the situation Whembly posted. That guy fits far more easily into the categories of horror-film-villain or sociopath-with-a-niche-opportunity than he does an underground abortion doctor.

State funded, regulated and affordable abortion clinics or the integration of the procedure into regular hospital operations would remove him and anyone else out there from their ability to practice the horrors he did.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Stigma, underfunding, lack of regulation. Those are the things that allow places like this to spread like mold. The more certain states put pressure on their abortion clinics to close, the more shaky handed failed veterinarians with coat hangers will be operating on poor women in crackhouses as the rich simply travel outstate or eventually, abroad. The religious right cannot stop abortions, they can simply force them underground and enable this sort of thing.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, I don't think that would change the situation Whembly posted. That guy fits far more easily into the categories of horror-film-villain or sociopath-with-a-niche-opportunity than he does an underground abortion doctor.

State funded, regulated and affordable abortion clinics or the integration of the procedure into regular hospital operations would remove him and anyone else out there from their ability to practice the horrors he did.

Not necessarily... that's my point.

You also forget that he was't initially investigated on his abortive practices... the LEOs were after him for his illegal oxycodone business and THEY walked into that horrific operation.

He was ALREADY in the black market.

 whembly wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Stigma, underfunding, lack of regulation. Those are the things that allow places like this to spread like mold. The more certain states put pressure on their abortion clinics to close, the more shaky handed failed veterinarians with coat hangers will be operating on poor women in crackhouses as the rich simply travel outstate or eventually, abroad. The religious right cannot stop abortions, they can simply force them underground and enable this sort of thing.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, I don't think that would change the situation Whembly posted. That guy fits far more easily into the categories of horror-film-villain or sociopath-with-a-niche-opportunity than he does an underground abortion doctor.

State funded, regulated and affordable abortion clinics or the integration of the procedure into regular hospital operations would remove him and anyone else out there from their ability to practice the horrors he did.

Not necessarily... that's my point.

You also forget that he was't initially investigated on his abortive practices... the LEOs were after him for his illegal oxycodone business and THEY walked into that horrific operation.

He was ALREADY in the black market.

Yes and if instead there was state healthcare abortion available in a nice clean clinic, regularly inspected by state regulators then he could be as black market as he wanted to and unless he was snatching pregnant women off the street, noone would be using him...

See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

Hey... I'd advocated vasectomy to boyz before they hit puberty...

But, eh... no parents want any cutting on their boyz...

If you want babies, they'll "replumb" the pippings! The only problem, besides the surgery, is that the replumbing process is approx 80% successful. If they can make it damn new 99%... go fer it.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Yes and if instead there was state healthcare abortion available in a nice clean clinic, regularly inspected by state regulators then he could be as black market as he wanted to and unless he was snatching pregnant women off the street, noone would be using him...

A fair enough point. In this particular situation, though, I suspect he'd totally have just bought himself a van.

 Albatross wrote:
If anyone wants me, I'll be drinking fizzy lager, listening to britpop and generally having FUN.

Yeesh. You guys make Kurt Cobain look like Rip Taylor.

This is the most sensible post in this thread past, present or future.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
If anyone wants me, I'll be drinking fizzy lager, listening to britpop and generally having FUN.

Yeesh. You guys make Kurt Cobain look like Rip Taylor.

This is the most sensible post in this thread past, present or future.

Now that I have a rack of ribs, some drumsticks and a beer I find my outlook on life is much improved

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
If anyone wants me, I'll be drinking fizzy lager, listening to britpop and generally having FUN.

Yeesh. You guys make Kurt Cobain look like Rip Taylor.

This is the most sensible post in this thread past, present or future.

Now that I have a rack of ribs, some drumsticks and a beer I find my outlook on life is much improved

You know what this calls for? MOAR meat!


and



edit: oops, wrong image... fixed.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
If anyone wants me, I'll be drinking fizzy lager, listening to britpop and generally having FUN.

Yeesh. You guys make Kurt Cobain look like Rip Taylor.

This is the most sensible post in this thread past, present or future.

Now that I have a rack of ribs, some drumsticks and a beer I find my outlook on life is much improved

Total turn off, way too moody this relationship is over! One minute you're like mad and now you're happy OMG!!!

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

There is no "declining IQ issue".
There is in fact an average relative IQ increase of three points per decade.
There is an increase in the visibility of stupid people, but that doesn't mean that IQs are dropping. (For one thing, the mean IQ is standardised to 100)

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

Ugh. Breeding Permit ideas piss me off. People have no right to decide how others live their lives. Who gets to decide what a good parent is like huh? The state? The community? Psychologists, Sociologists and Biologists cant decide on the best ways to raise a kid, so leave to government out of my sex life.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

Ugh. Breeding Permit ideas piss me off. People have no right to decide how others live their lives. Who gets to decide what a good parent is like huh? The state? The community? Psychologists, Sociologists and Biologists cant decide on the best ways to raise a kid, so leave to government out of my sex life.

So you are arguing against things like child protective services and suicide prevention here, am I getting that right?

Im arguing about the government somehow knowing beforehand on what will make someone a good parent.

 Bromsy wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

Ugh. Breeding Permit ideas piss me off. People have no right to decide how others live their lives. Who gets to decide what a good parent is like huh? The state? The community? Psychologists, Sociologists and Biologists cant decide on the best ways to raise a kid, so leave to government out of my sex life.

So you are arguing against things like child protective services and suicide prevention here, am I getting that right?

There is a huge difference between those services and a breeding permit. One is reactionary, and takes place after there is good reason to believe an issue has arisen. The other takes the choice out ones hands altogether. It's okay to remove a child once the parents have been proven to be incapable, it's a whole other thing to declare them unfit before the fact.

 Ratbarf wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

Ugh. Breeding Permit ideas piss me off. People have no right to decide how others live their lives. Who gets to decide what a good parent is like huh? The state? The community? Psychologists, Sociologists and Biologists cant decide on the best ways to raise a kid, so leave to government out of my sex life.

So you are arguing against things like child protective services and suicide prevention here, am I getting that right?

There is a huge difference between those services and a breeding permit. One is reactionary, and takes place after there is good reason to believe an issue has arisen. The other takes the choice out ones hands altogether. It's okay to remove a child once the parents have been proven to be incapable, it's a whole other thing to declare them unfit before the fact.

There are differences. Which is why I worded my response the way I did, because we went from "Breeding Permits piss me off" out onto wild ideological tangents. I was pointing out that hotsauce's statement was all over the place and needed to be clarified.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

This is a hyperbolic swing into the ludicrous. What I had been advocating prior was something that is commonplace and works and is about giving people more right to choose. This cast red herring then turns that unfairly and fantastically into that right to choose leading to some horrific big brother state that will take away your ability to have children, there is no evidence to support that in any of the first world countries (all of them other than the US) where state healthcare is provided. I'm disappointed you threw this spanner into the works, because it was a fantasist's derailment.

I think we should have a theory exam for procreation as well as the practical.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

This is a hyperbolic swing into the ludicrous. What I had been advocating prior was something that is commonplace and works and is about giving people more right to choose. This cast red herring then turns that unfairly and fantastically into that right to choose leading to some horrific big brother state that will take away your ability to have children, there is no evidence to support that in any of the first world countries (all of them other than the US) where state healthcare is provided. I'm disappointed you threw this spanner into the works, because it was a fantasist's derailment.

The ultimate irony is that the people who claim that the government should give breeding permits are probably the people you would least want breeding anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PredaKhaine wrote:
I think we should have a theory exam for procreation as well as the practical.

Doesn't sex ed and biology already teach the theory part and I don't see how you could make a practical exam for it, the teacher brings in a bunch of prostitutes for the class?

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I just finished the research phase of a final paper on the Massacre at Wounded Knee, for those who don't know the massacre took place 29 December, 1890 and is considered the "last battle of the American Indian wars". Accounts very nut what is clear is that the U.S. 7th Cavalry under the command of Colonel James Forsyth murdered 150 to 300 Sioux indians, mostly women and children. Twenty congressional Medals of Honor, the United State's highest medal for valor in combat were awarded to 7th Cavalry troopers for participation in the "battle". Throw in the rest of the research I was working on that covered more of the Indian wars and I'm pretty much ready to resign from the human race in disgust. Especially because this stuff was glossed over in my U.S. History classes through out my primary education, I suppose no one likes thinking about the more sordid aspects of their past... but the mistreatment continues to this day with American Indian reservations largely being in conditions comparable to the third world. Again, something I knew... but processing it all at once.


I'm just done.

Any one else run into something like this mentally or morally? Some act of nation or species where you look at it and just quit for awhile?

Having studied the Indian Wars for the better part of my life and the Native American-US Government relations I can honestly say that the way Native Americans are treated disgusts me to no end. While yes it is true that I am half Navajo, and this makes the events all the more upsetting to me, all people should be upset how the government can attempt to marginalize a whole group.

Consider this – the American Indians as a group of people have suffered and continues to suffer at the hands of an unjust civil and criminal system that began with Manifest Destiny and continues through today and are still a proud and strong people that are carrying on their traditions and culture with laughter and life. Despite concerted efforts by the colonizers and the US Government to eradicate all traces of the Indigenous population – we are still here. And although the non-indigenous government and those in control of the justice system continually attack American Indians that stand up for their people, their land, their water, and all manner of rights, through out history; it has not stopped those that would fight for the same through this day.

The trespasses against Native peoples did not stop in the 1800s like many would like to believe though.

There are still examples today of the Government attempting to marginalize Native Americans whether it is Leonard Peltier's case, ski resorts desecrating my own people's sacred Navajo mountains, or Operation "Geronimo".

I know this is off topic, but I would like to blow off some steam: Recently I've been applying for scholarships and as a Native American I can apply for some special scholarships from the government, but the catch being I need to provide verification that I am in fact Native. Yet black and hispanic students aren't required to do the same for their respective scholarships.

Funny how that works sometimes.

Having read the thread i find it strange that people seem to think (or infer) that as humanity gets more advanvced these style of things (indian wars) stop happening. I cannot see any parallels for this throughout history. Rome had a similar metropolis to us today (which i tend to regard as advancement, the ability to organise your resources so well that you can have huge cities) yet massacres and mistreatment have happened many times after rome.

Mistreatment of people is happening right now, in my opinion humanity will always do these things to each other, it's kinda what we do.

On abortion , having clinics goes a long way to get rid of those back room butchers, legalising abortion is the way to go. Bring on the vacuum!

Sandastino, i know your frustrated atm, but these checks are just to assure that only the natives are getting the benefits not any johnny come-whitely who rocks along, surely a small identity check is worth not having your spots stolen by the immoral.

From the 1930s until the early 1980s some Australian government agencies, generally with the aid of adoption agencies and religious bodies, would forcibly take children born to young, unwed women and put them up for adoption. Consent was either coerced, or acquired while the mother was drugged and recovering from pregancy. In some cases the mother was told her child had died. Some bodies in the UK were complicit with this, taking children born there and shipping them to Australia.

For some positive news... well yesterday the Prime Minister and the Opposition leader both gave speaches apologising for what had been done.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

It never fails to surprise me that people who are supposedly in favour of personal freedom would support mandatory sterilisation of the population, with fertility dependant on government approval. Just staggering.

The funny thing is, if you just make contraception free, as in IUDs freely available to women, condoms freely available to men, well then you get a drop in unwanted pregancies of 80%. But all these people who talk about all these poor people having babies or abortions... none of them talk about that. Wonder why?

 Cheesecat wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PredaKhaine wrote:
I think we should have a theory exam for procreation as well as the practical.

Doesn't sex ed and biology already teach the theory part and I don't see how you could make a practical exam for it, the teacher brings in a bunch of prostitutes for the class?

It was meant as a joke. 'Theory' as in making sure people have parenting skills before they have a child - the practical? everyone appears to to be able to do that already, with no thought for the consequences.

 sebster wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See if you're going to go state regulation you don't want abortion clinics MGS. Just make birth control mandatory for both genders, you then have to apply for a breeding permit. Solves the unwanted baby and declining IQ issues in one fell swoop.

It never fails to surprise me that people who are supposedly in favour of personal freedom would support mandatory sterilisation of the population, with fertility dependant on government approval. Just staggering.

At that level of absurdity the sarcasm should probably be dripping through your monitor.