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 Fenriswulf wrote:
You want ghouls in a horde because they have 2 attacks for the front rank, and you can get two additional ranks to fight for 1 attack each. They're all poisoned attacks and that makes them good at taking out high toughness low armour targets.

Small units for Vampire Counts has never worked for me, they just get smashed down way too quickly and crumble. I believe in getting across the board as fast as possible, and engaging the enemy on my terms. Hoping to raise more guys to make units bigger to take on the enemy is asking for trouble, especially if you have a bad magic phase, or the opponent can seem to dispel all your invocations. Better to have them big at the beginning, and redirect your magic to things like an big version of Van Hels to help you get across the table.

Also, ghouls can't be raised beyond their starting number. If you're going to take them, go large. Otherwise stick to zombies or skeletons.

The idea that you'll get skeletons larger than starting size of any use is simply not true. You get exactly 1 guy in the army who can increase skeletons. If I'm worried about your skeletons, that's the invoke I'll dispel, and let another go off instead.
IMO, all necromancers should of had the ability to increase skeletons; it would have made a skeleton necromancer build viable.

As for ghouls, horde them if you have space during deployment, bus them if you don't. You can always go to horde later if need be.

-Matt

 Sigvatr wrote:
Ghouls can't equip spears, guys, and given that most VC units than can get spears are tarpits, sword&board is superior.

Wait when did I ever say that ghouls could take spears? Also I never ever take spears on skelies.


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 Fenriswulf wrote:
You want ghouls in a horde because they have 2 attacks for the front rank, and you can get two additional ranks to fight for 1 attack each. They're all poisoned attacks and that makes them good at taking out high toughness low armour targets.

Small units for Vampire Counts has never worked for me, they just get smashed down way too quickly and crumble. I believe in getting across the board as fast as possible, and engaging the enemy on my terms. Hoping to raise more guys to make units bigger to take on the enemy is asking for trouble, especially if you have a bad magic phase, or the opponent can seem to dispel all your invocations. Better to have them big at the beginning, and redirect your magic to things like an big version of Van Hels to help you get across the table.

Also, ghouls can't be raised beyond their starting number. If you're going to take them, go large. Otherwise stick to zombies or skeletons.

It's actually quite useful having smaller units they don't really get noticed often and can quickly be increased (in the case of zombies) to massive size very quickly. They also don't get noticed if you are bunkering a necro.

When playing VC proxy I only take Ghouls, no skels or zombies.

Then I can't see you ever winning unless you have plenty of necros and raise dead as one of your spells

BaconUprising wrote:
Then I can't see you ever winning unless you have plenty of necros and raise dead as one of your spells

I do just fine with them, what are your issues you are encountering when playing them?

Well they die really easily for their steep points cost and can't compete with other units of a similar price. It's hard to justify them being too numerous and yet if you take them in small units they are to weak. They can't ever be increased beyond starting size and many of the opponents I have played are under the misconception that they are one of the real threats in the VC book and so wipe them out as early and quickly as possible. I can see how your army might get by without skelies (even though they are our best troops) but not zombies. They are an essential.

I run 2 large hordes of ghouls in a 2500 point army. I use use magic to in crease their number and augment them when possible. I have had really good luck with their poisoned attacks with re-roll hits. The biggest challenges I have had with them is when you run into a heavily armor opponent. I believe they only cost 2 point more than xhw gors with one less weapon skill but they get poison and undead rules. Also think of it like this when you cast Nehek you are getting more points back with each cast than if you do skellies or zombies. To each their own. In my beastmen army I never play ungor spearmen. I ran into a player at the last GT that was playing Ungor spearmen with gorebulls in the unit and he rocked a couple opponents with them.

BaconUprising wrote:
Well they die really easily for their steep points cost and can't compete with other units of a similar price. It's hard to justify them being too numerous and yet if you take them in small units they are to weak. They can't ever be increased beyond starting size and many of the opponents I have played are under the misconception that they are one of the real threats in the VC book and so wipe them out as early and quickly as possible. I can see how your army might get by without skelies (even though they are our best troops) but not zombies. They are an essential.

I've waffled between ghouls and skeletons (both with some zombies). What I've found with ghouls is you need at least 45. Less than that, and you'll take enough losses that you lose attacks, and might loose the whole unit.
Are they expensive? Yes they are. But here's the deal.
Core is the worst part of vampires counts. The stronger lists all have one thing in common. Minimum core.
Give that you must spend 25% on core, and given that you can only march within 12" of the general, I've done better with ghouls than other options.
Skeletons don't cost enough, meaning you must take twice as many to meet that minim 25%.
By running ghouls, it frees up space around my general for the good stuff. Ghouls might be a little over-priced, but that doesn't matter when you're filling required points.

Want to feel good about ghouls? Fight any WS3 army.
Ogres/Saurus/Orcs hit and wound skeletons on 3's, they hit and wound ghouls on 4's, and ghouls go first.

My typical build now is 45 ghouls, 1-2 units of 20 zombies, and 2x5 dire wolves.
Zombies are deployed behind the rest and buff up during early turns and act as a road block during late turns.

I'm not a fan of the skeletons as a front line unit. WS2 T3 is too sweet of a target for too many enemies.

-Matt

Matt I run 2 40 man hordes of ghouls its more points than 25% but about 175, but I have had really good luck especially if I get reroll misses on them. The poison wounds really kick in.

tgf wrote:
Matt I run 2 40 man hordes of ghouls its more points than 25% but about 175, but I have had really good luck especially if I get reroll misses on them. The poison wounds really kick in.

Point for point, Crypt horrors do better than ghouls. That 175 that you're over could be 4-5 more crypt horrors.
If you're only running 2 units of ghouls as core, where do you hide your necromancers?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

tgf wrote:
Matt I run 2 40 man hordes of ghouls its more points than 25% but about 175, but I have had really good luck especially if I get reroll misses on them. The poison wounds really kick in.

Point for point, Crypt horrors do better than ghouls. That 175 that you're over could be 4-5 more crypt horrors.
If you're only running 2 units of ghouls as core, where do you hide your necromancers?

-Matt

This, pretty much. The main advantage of VC core is being able to hide your sorcerers in refilling cheap troops.

tgf wrote:
I run 2 large hordes of ghouls in a 2500 point army. I use use magic to in crease their number and augment them when possible. I have had really good luck with their poisoned attacks with re-roll hits. The biggest challenges I have had with them is when you run into a heavily armor opponent. I believe they only cost 2 point more than xhw gors with one less weapon skill but they get poison and undead rules. Also think of it like this when you cast Nehek you are getting more points back with each cast than if you do skellies or zombies. To each their own. In my beastmen army I never play ungor spearmen. I ran into a player at the last GT that was playing Ungor spearmen with gorebulls in the unit and he rocked a couple opponents with them.

You are comparing them to beastmen yet beastmen are the worst most overpriced units in the game!


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 Sigvatr wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

tgf wrote:
Matt I run 2 40 man hordes of ghouls its more points than 25% but about 175, but I have had really good luck especially if I get reroll misses on them. The poison wounds really kick in.

Point for point, Crypt horrors do better than ghouls. That 175 that you're over could be 4-5 more crypt horrors.
If you're only running 2 units of ghouls as core, where do you hide your necromancers?

-Matt

This, pretty much. The main advantage of VC core is being able to hide your sorcerers in refilling cheap troops.

Nailed it theirs, that is pretty much cores only use and I don't think that ghouls do that too well at least not better than skeletons or zombies

Ghouls are excellent units. They are core and can be viable hammer units besides your generic GG. They have a different use than Zombies / Skeletons.

Maybe I have been cheating, can't necro's sit on the corner of a ghoul unit and still get look out sir?

Why can't necros go in ghoul units? Its never come up (I regularly play against Vamps) but is there a rule that says they can't?

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
Why can't necros go in ghoul units? Its never come up (I regularly play against Vamps) but is there a rule that says they can't?

You don't want your Necros at the front line.

Oh jesus thats all it is? Ha cheers Sigvatr

I don't know if there is an additional special rule that disallows character models to go into Ghoul units though - there might be, but I haven't heard of such a rule yet.

If there isn't, however, that's the reason most likely.

I don't think there is, one of my opponents would have called me on it. For the most part the necros can not be hit in CC since the ghouls are in horde and the 20mm base is forced to sit outside the block. you have to get as many models in contact as possible which usually prevents your opponents or you from charging in such a way they can hit the necros.

BaconUprising wrote:

You are comparing them to beastmen yet beastmen are the worst most overpriced units in the game!

The Beastmen Gor is only slightly overpriced, and for the stats you get it's hardly the worst unit in the game.

This thread is rapidly deteriorating to "I don't like ghouls" which is an opinion, rather than a solid fact. Regardless of the preferences, people tend to horde ghouls so that they can deal with other core troop hordes (Orc Boyz, Skaven Slaves, etc.) T4 is rather solid for a front line unit and poison gives the unit a slight edge in combat.

Most VC Tourney Lists contain ghouls, and for a good reason.

tgf wrote:
Maybe I have been cheating, can't necro's sit on the corner of a ghoul unit and still get look out sir?

You don't get a look out against a dude with an axe. Anything that doesn't challenge is going to be putting attack on that guy. He's easier to kill than a ghoul. IMO, in front of a fighting horde is nearly the worst place for a WS3 T3 W2 naked wizard.
It even costs you 2 poison attacks when you stick him up front.

Seriously, buy a 60 point unit of zombies and hide him.

-Matt

tgf wrote:
I don't think there is, one of my opponents would have called me on it. For the most part the necros can not be hit in CC since the ghouls are in horde and the 20mm base is forced to sit outside the block. you have to get as many models in contact as possible which usually prevents your opponents or you from charging in such a way they can hit the necros.

Yes, that's a valid move. On the other hand, you still have your Necro right at the front, in range of any nasty magic, shooting etc., he can still be flanked and, most of all, why would you want to have him there? Why not, as Matt suggested, buy a small unit of zombies to soak up ranged attacks and have your Necro safe?

On a more general remark: I always keep my shamans at the corner. Reason: if you miscast, the template hits less people.

lol yeah, nothing quite like a misfire purple sun to make you sad as well. I can probably find 60 points for zombies somewhere in the list.