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I don't think that P is a much problem in assasinating (ehm 10 000 years have passed, and "I" has moved one level in killing gene modified beings, certainly),
Real problem would be whole chapters behind him....

It really depends on what the lion does when he wakes up, and who's writing it.

Scanlon: (tries to do the things in the OP)

Thorpe: (Beheads HLoT for no reason) Yay, lets kill daemons!

Lee: Ahahahaha! I am a genius! (throws the keys of the rock to Abbadon) Don't scratch it, and be home before midnight!

as for Abnett, I haven't read his depiction of the lion.

Don't get me wrong, I am a DA fanboy, but it's the faults the lion has that make me like him. He would not, as a lot of people in the thread the OP mentioned said, fix everything and become lord commander of the Imperium. He would probably do some sneaky stuff and fight from behind the curtains, directing the dark angels, and possibly trying to find his brothers or subtly manipulate imperial forces. In all likelihood he would have to show himself at one point and then promptly be captured and interrogated (Grimdark!) or just killed (More Grimdark!) to maintain the status quo.

I find the idea of the lion being assassinated outright kind of ludicrous, a paranoid primarch of a secretive legion who the inquisition doesn't bother that much, and when they do Inquisitors "Disappear", would just play his cards immediately and let the Officio Assassinorum sneak up on him?

In my interpretation of the lion he wouldn't grandstand, and would try to get the whole situation before showing himself, and probably tell off the Unforgiven for spending some odd 10,000 years chasing the fallen like maniacs, then proceed to slowly but surely try and win the wars against the Imperiums enemies, but I don't deny I am biased.


The lion is not a hero, he is a tactician, for whom the Emperor comes first, and his Honour second. He isn't as diplomatic as Horus, as charming as Fulgrim, or as Prideful as Magnus. Hi goal is to win, nothing more.

TL;DR: The Lion isn't dumb, but he isn't going to fix everything, or even a lot of things if he wakes up.

Of course this is all just my opinion, and I could very well be incorrect, and I am certainly biased.

Cheers!

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
While the Lion could reasonably want to take the throne in absence of a better candidate, and the High Lords might want to avoid the political battle of the millenia, doing it while Chaos, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons and Tau are all munching on Imperial space and destroying what the Great Crusade created at an alarming rate is... well... beyond dumb.

Yes, but "beyond dumb" is quite in line with Primarch thinking.

Point out where the Lion specifically did something that stupid.

That depends on which story about the origin of the Dark Angels schism you buy in to.

You didn't point out where the Lion specifically did something that stupid.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
You didn't point out where the Lion specifically did something that stupid.

Do you really need to be that dense?

You're fairly new to the concept of rational discourse I see.

When you make a claim, you are typically expected to substantiate it with something.

Edit: Haha, editing to make your post less insulting I see.

"I'd ask you to not be that dense, but I know better", right?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
You're fairly new to the concept of rational discourse I see.

Ironic, coming from you.

I asked you what version of the Dark Angels schism you bought in to as the real one.

You didn't ask me it, and such a question poses no relevance.

What I believe means nothing toward what has lead you to your beliefs.

I asked a simple question: What has the Lion done that was stupid? I will accept codex and BL.

I'll even give you a freebie: He was easily manipulated by Perturabo into giving him siege weaponry that the soon to be revealed traitor Primarch would put to "good use" vaporizing loyalist Marines, all in a bid to have Perturabo's support as Warmaster. The most grievous flaw in this train of thought is the belief that anyone would give a gak what Perturabo thinks.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
You didn't ask me it, and such a question poses no relevance.

I did, and it does. You have a tendency to get obnoxiously anal, and as such, more clarification on your beliefs is necessary to maximize the effect of any counter-argument. OR even to make me want to bother to produce one to begin with.

tl;dr: I don't care enough to start an argument without any input on your end.

 Melissia wrote:
That depends on which story about the origin of the Dark Angels schism you buy in to.

I'll buy into any of them. Point out where the Lion did something that stupid.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That depends on which story about the origin of the Dark Angels schism you buy in to.

I'll buy into any of them. Point out where the Lion did something that stupid.

I think I remember reading that Melissia (or someone else, I can't remember) hasn't read the HH books, so if that is her, that could be a bit tricky...?

 Just Dave wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That depends on which story about the origin of the Dark Angels schism you buy in to.

I'll buy into any of them. Point out where the Lion did something that stupid.

I think I remember reading that Melissia (or someone else, I can't remember) hasn't read the HH books, so if that is her, that could be a bit tricky...?

I don't particularly enjoy the Horus Heresy books-- or any marine-spank books for that matter.

But that doesn't mean I haven't read any of them.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Point out where the Lion specifically did something that stupid.

IMO, the only real act of stupidity the Lion could be attributed with would be that he completely neglected to ensure the loyalty of his unique recruitment center and the person managing it. Which really isn't stupidity on the level of throwing a warring Imperium in civil war while it's attacked on at least 5 major fronts.

 Melissia wrote:
I did, and it does. You have a tendency to get obnoxiously anal, and as such, more clarification on your beliefs is necessary to maximize the effect of any counter-argument. OR even to make me want to bother to produce one to begin with.

tl;dr: I don't care enough to start an argument without any input on your end.

I have already said that I would, in fact, accept codex or BL (Or FW for that matter, but I don't think it has any fluff on the Lion).

Your continued refusal to substantiate your claim (I'm not even asking for a quote with a page citation) in the light of such leniency can only be the result of laziness, or that you simply don't know of any such fluff which paints the Lion in such a light.

You come into threads and make biased claims, but when asked to provide your reasoning or any evidence for them, act indignant, as if you should not be expected to.

Cease this sort of disrespectful behavior, would you kindly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
IMO, the only real act of stupidity the Lion could be attributed with would be that he completely neglected to ensure the loyalty of his unique recruitment center and the person managing it. Which really isn't stupidity on the level of throwing a warring Imperium in civil war while it's attacked on at least 5 major fronts.

I'd agree, in terms of managing human (ish) beings the Lion is not very competent.

But in assessing matters of war and how best to proceed with his plans, he is.

Void__Dragon and Melissia dueling in the thread.



As far as offering my opinion on the Lion's stupidity, I'd like to know what he thought his brother was going to go and do with that super duper siege artillery?

Lay the smackdown on the traitors, probably. Perturabo's mission as given by the Emperor was to siege the Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and World Eater's positions on Istvaan V, and the master of siege warfare could make good use of such advanced siege weaponry.

And he did.

I'd imagine that the Lion would be smart enough to try to get his brothers awake again to deal with all the gak the Imperium is dealing with.

I know he didn't get along with Gulliman, but even having Gulliman awake and organizing the Galactic East would bring a lot of pressure off the rest of the Imperium.

The main problem for the Dark Angels would be how distrusted they themselves are as was the Lion - not to mention if he goes for the Throne, the High Lords and anyone who does not want the status quo to change will challenge him.

If he was smart he'd work to get his brothers back together, if he was dumb he'd make a power play for the throne. (Which he has no right to, considering neither Dorn nor Gulliman went for it post-Heresy.)

 Void__Dragon wrote:

I have already said that I would, in fact, accept codex or BL (Or FW for that matter, but I don't think it has any fluff on the Lion).

There's more than one version of the story.

Do you believe the "official" version of the events in the codex is correct-- the one pushed by the Dark Angels themselves? Or perhaps Astelan's version as written by Gav Thorpe, for which Astelan was imprisoned next to Luther (who has been imprisoned since the Horus Heresy)? Or the version written by Mike Lee?

They're inherently contradictory, and likely intended to be such.

The manner in which the Lion basically cut off all contact with the remnants of his legion on Caliban was exceedingly stupid. He completely failed to provide them with any leadership during a time of war, I dont see how that can be counted as anything but stupid.

When he initially subdivided his legion there did not appear to be any rational approach as to how he went about deciding who would go with him and who would stay behind. If he really thought Luther meant to kill him with the nuclear bomb from that alien ship then it was incredibly stupid to leave him behind and in charge of the forces on Caliban.

If he didnt believe Luther meant to kill him then his treatment of Luther was equally as stupid.

There was at least one very high level psyker that could have instantly got to the bottom of Luther's treachery, failing to use the librarian was really stupid on the Lion's part.

JWhex wrote:
The manner in which the Lion basically cut off all contact with the remnants of his legion on Caliban was exceedingly stupid. He completely failed to provide them with any leadership during a time of war, I dont see how that can be counted as anything but stupid.

Johnson was pathologically incapable of judging someone else's character. Or at least that's how they want to portray him in the BL novels. He failed to realize that Luther, the man who had raised him and the greatest human leader his planet had ever produced would throw a bitch fit because he was too busy conquering the rest of the universe to take the time to chat with him. Was his actions bright? No. Were they exceedingly stupid? No. They were cold. That's all.

When he initially subdivided his legion there did not appear to be any rational approach as to how he went about deciding who would go with him and who would stay behind.

Of course there was, he brought those who was closest to him and used them as a 'personal chapter'.

If he really thought Luther meant to kill him with the nuclear bomb from that alien ship then it was incredibly stupid to leave him behind and in charge of the forces on Caliban.

The Lion couldn't have known anything about that. There was no way. While it's not explicit in the novel, it's pretty much evident that it was because they faced another deamonic entity that the calibanite were sent back. What was his train of thought that lead to that decision wasn't made clear, but you shouldn't buy into Luther's paranoia either.

If he didnt believe Luther meant to kill him then his treatment of Luther was equally as stupid.

There was at least one very high level psyker that could have instantly got to the bottom of Luther's treachery, failing to use the librarian was really stupid on the Lion's part.

He had no reason to suspect any treachery.

 Melissia wrote:
There's more than one version of the story.

Do you believe the "official" version of the events in the codex is correct-- the one pushed by the Dark Angels themselves? Or perhaps Astelan's version as written by Gav Thorpe, for which Astelan was imprisoned next to Luther (who has been imprisoned since the Horus Heresy)? Or the version written by Mike Lee?

They're inherently contradictory, and likely intended to be such.

Why the Mitchel Scanlon version of course.

"Wait wait Azrael, youre telling me there is a space marine who is trapped in the warp and remains untainted and owns everything in his path? That the blood angels once made friends with robotic terminators? That we now have brothers called the Flesh Tearers, Flesh Eaters and the Legion of the Damned? Oh Azrael I missed your humour, next you are going to tell me we consider some xenos battle brothers, now tell me what really happened while I was asleep."

I agree that if he did wake up he would take it upon himself to seek answers for the remaining primarchs, as any one should do.

 TheLionRampant wrote:
Ferrus was supposetly decapitated by Fulgrim during the Istvaan V Dropside Massacre but that was never confirmed as noone found the body.

From the point of view of the Iron Hands, it was unconfirmed. From the point of view of the reader, it was definitely confirmed. The whole scene in which Fulgrim beheads Ferrus is laid out before us in Fulgrim

I would like to point out that the lion killed a calibanite lion (more like a gigantic regenerating armored sabretooth that is strong enough to destroy an entire stone castle than an actoull lion) barehanded and with no armor, a feat that was only duplicated once by an extremely powerful psyker in power armor with a chainsword and bolt pistol who had help from the watchers in the dark, in light of that, i think that, and the fact that he controlls what is essentially a space marine legion in all but name and will likely be able to call upon the other astartes for aid, the high lords of terra would be stupid to try to oppose him.

I think that given the incredible state of decay of the Imperium, the High Lords if they heard of the Lions return would try to use it as a mass morale boost for humanity. Think about it, one of the Emperors gene forged sons returns, a figure of mythological import to the imperium. It would be like the UNSC revealing the Spartan II programme after they started taking extremely severe losses at the hands of the covenant. The return of a Primarch would be a huge morale boost to the Imperium, sure it probably wont be enough to survive the coming storms but it would signal a last stand at least.

I doubt it. More likely than not they'd see it as a threat to their power base.

Heroes are more useful when they're dead. Much easier to control and make use of for morale purposes that way.

What I want to know is who the hell is Dark Angela? Female successor chapter to the Unforgiven?

 Melissia wrote:
I doubt it. More likely than not they'd see it as a threat to their power base.

Heroes are more useful when they're dead. Much easier to control and make use of for morale purposes that way.

Care to make an example?