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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If every SM Chapter is so brokenly overpowered, why are Imperial Guard and Necrons the top performers? Blaming everything on some sort of percieved bias towards Space Marines is getting old, get over it.

Because Space Marines didn't get two flyer updates while others are forced to wait for their codex to update. Oh, and Space Marines are apparently getting updated within the year, so I don't think you can justify as trying to help hold them over. Yeah... no bias there.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If every SM Chapter is so brokenly overpowered, why are Imperial Guard and Necrons the top performers? Blaming everything on some sort of percieved bias towards Space Marines is getting old, get over it.

Didn't say that, at all. Thanks though. Where did I say SM were best?

You really think this was a long series of typos, omitted text, and improperly placed options? Put down the koolaid.

well that seems unnecessary to say the least. The idea that you could take missile pods in other places really freed up crisis suits to take on other weapons platforms. But no, looks like the deathrain and fireknife configurations are back on top.

This FAQ ruling, while astonishing, actually makes sense!

If you do the math, a squad of missile drones, even at BS2 greatly outperformed an equivalent Crisis Suit Missile squad while the drone squad had more than enough shots to take down flyers as well. Basically, 1-2 full missile drone squads could have easily become a staple in the army and even in my prototype lists I have been doing little but dropping units for more markerlights and missile drones.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If every SM Chapter is so brokenly overpowered, why are Imperial Guard and Necrons the top performers? Blaming everything on some sort of percieved bias towards Space Marines is getting old, get over it.

Because Space Marines didn't get two flyer updates while others are forced to wait for their codex to update. Oh, and Space Marines are apparently getting updated within the year, so I don't think you can justify as trying to help hold them over. Yeah... no bias there.

So I guess we're just pretending that the Stormraven wasn't already in the game before Space Marines got it?
All the Stormraven had happen was make it more widely available.

And if you think that adding one unit (because quite frankly, that's all the flyer update added: the Stormtalon Gunship) is incredibly time consuming or pushing back your favorite army--you have a very skewed sense of what development time is like.

You couldn't take missile drone squads, only two missile drones per unit, which I think is fair when they also weren't affected by drone controllers.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
On the plus side, it does mean that Broadsides can have missiles on their missiles while they missile.

What you say?

 Kanluwen wrote:
So I guess we're just pretending that the Stormraven wasn't already in the game before Space Marines got it?
All the Stormraven had happen was make it more widely available.

And if you think that adding one unit (because quite frankly, that's all the flyer update added: the Stormtalon Gunship) is incredibly time consuming or pushing back your favorite army--you have a very skewed sense of what development time is like.

Well if I look at Codex: Space marines I'll notice there are no entries for the Storm Talon or Storm Raven. Getting access to a unit they didn't have before without a codex update? Yeah, that's kind of a good thing. I wish they would have done it with other armies.

I also never implied it to be time consuming or delaying anything. I said that Space marines got bonus stuff before they get their 6th ed codex, which will be along shortly apparently, while other armies (ie Tau, Eldar, Nids, SW, and SOB) are waiting patiently for codex updates to get extra units. I'm saying there is a clear bias towards certain armies to give them extra goodies when they could have just released a flyer model for several armies before the updates.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You couldn't take missile drone squads, only two missile drones per unit, which I think is fair when they also weren't affected by drone controllers.

You can't see where this would get silly?

At best, the Missile Drone Squads should be Riptides+Broadsides only.

Im suprised the faqs haven't gone over to the ios bookshop and we are charged $1.99 for them.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So I guess we're just pretending that the Stormraven wasn't already in the game before Space Marines got it?
All the Stormraven had happen was make it more widely available.

And if you think that adding one unit (because quite frankly, that's all the flyer update added: the Stormtalon Gunship) is incredibly time consuming or pushing back your favorite army--you have a very skewed sense of what development time is like.

Well if I look at Codex: Space marines I'll notice there are no entries for the Storm Talon or Storm Raven. Getting access to a unit they didn't have before without a codex update? Yeah, that's kind of a good thing. I wish they would have done it with other armies.

They did, actually.
Eldar got access to the Night Spinner(previously an Imperial Armour model) via a WD update.
Orks got the Bommer variants via the same update that gives C: Space Marines the Stormtalon and Stormraven.

I also never implied it to be time consuming or delaying anything. I said that Space marines got bonus stuff before they get their 6th ed codex, which will be along shortly apparently, while other armies (ie Tau, Eldar, Nids, SW, and SOB) are waiting patiently for codex updates to get extra units. I'm saying there is a clear bias towards certain armies to give them extra goodies when they could have just released a flyer model for several armies before the updates.

Did you ever think that the reason it was done is because adding the Marine flyers allows them to add something that can be used by a large number of the codices at once?

Yeah, Space Marines got some attention. Big deal. Stormraven was already in the game. They just amended the text so that more than Blood Angels and Grey Knights could use it.
If you want that done for Eldar, Nids, and SOB--be my guest. I'd rather they actually get something interesting and unique.

 RiTides wrote:
While a bummer, the fact that apparently every poster in this thread was leaning towards missile drone spam makes me think this might not be the worst thing for the codex as far as making a variety of builds similarly powerful. It's only been out a day, right...? Give it a little time to percolate

Complaining about the lack of an option to add special/heavy weapons to squads != a desire to missile spam.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
While a bummer, the fact that apparently every poster in this thread was leaning towards missile drone spam makes me think this might not be the worst thing for the codex as far as making a variety of builds similarly powerful. It's only been out a day, right...? Give it a little time to percolate

Complaining about the lack of an option to add special/heavy weapons to squads != a desire to missile spam.

Except that's not what was happening if you look at the lists.

There were lists with more Missile Drones than suits, with Markerlights added in to buff up the drones and not the suits.

And really--who thought that they were going to add special/heavy weapons to squads?
That's against the whole fluff of the Tau. It's like Guard suddenly wearing power armor.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah, Space Marines got some attention. Big deal. Stormraven was already in the game. They just amended the text so that more than Blood Angels and Grey Knights could use it.
If you want that done for Eldar, Nids, and SOB--be my guest. I'd rather they actually get something interesting and unique.

That's a silly argument though. They went ahead and gave them a new unit they didn't have access to before. Why not give them Dreadknights too since they are already in the game? The point is that they didn't bother to give armies access to a mechanic that has severally changed the meta. Space marines got 2 changes before their update. Orks got flyers as well, so I guess we have a bias towards two armies but it doesn't prove they aren't neglecting others and showing preferance towards others.

And I don't see how missile drones would have been too much. You could get 2 per unit, and they were just a special/heavy weapon. Give them restrictions where they can't move and fire when with Firewarriors and call it a day. This was the one time Firewarriors could take a special weapon and it got killed before the first die could roll. Explain to me how taking two BS2 S7 ap4 shots would have been game breaking?

This is a bummer that Tau already have a FAQ, but daemons are still missing theirs...

If it was against the fluff, they could have changed the fluff. Pathfinders have access to a blast Ion weapon, and that wasn't fluffy before, but it is now. Things change. Again, look at Necrons with Tesla weapons and dynasties.

They also have drones with missiles now. They give drones to squads. Drones can have missiles now. They can give drones with missiles to squads. How is that not fluffy? The drone doesn't slow them down, but provide some extra firepower.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah, Space Marines got some attention. Big deal. Stormraven was already in the game. They just amended the text so that more than Blood Angels and Grey Knights could use it.
If you want that done for Eldar, Nids, and SOB--be my guest. I'd rather they actually get something interesting and unique.

That's a silly argument though. They went ahead and gave them a new unit they didn't have access to before. Why not give them Dreadknights too since they are already in the game? The point is that they didn't bother to give armies access to a mechanic that has severally changed the meta. Space marines got 2 changes before their update. Orks got flyers as well, so I guess we have a bias towards two armies but it doesn't prove they aren't neglecting others and showing preferance towards others.

And if you really want to look at it in a logical way, Space Marines had access to no flyers at all beyond the Thunderhawk and the Land Speeder Tempest when you included Forge World models into the mix.

Eldar?
5 flyers(two were more "ground attack" than flyers, but still)
Tau?
6 flyers(and that's including the Manta and Orcas, admittedly.)

Out of the list that you gave, only the SOB and Tyranids had access to fewer flyers than the Space Marines.

And I don't see how missile drones would have been too much. You could get 2 per unit, and they were just a special/heavy weapon. Give them restrictions where they can't move and fire when with Firewarriors and call it a day. This was the one time Firewarriors could take a special weapon and it got killed before the first die could roll. Explain to me how taking two BS2 S7 ap4 shots would have been game breaking?

How many Fire Warrior units can you take?
How many other units could you take that people would present the argument that "Missile Drones can be taken here too!".

 Kanluwen wrote:
And if you really want to look at it in a logical way, Space Marines had access to no flyers at all beyond the Thunderhawk and the Land Speeder Tempest when you included Forge World models into the mix.

Eldar?
5 flyers(two were more "ground attack" than flyers, but still)
Tau?
6 flyers(and that's including the Manta and Orcas, admittedly.)

Out of the list that you gave, only the SOB and Tyranids had access to fewer flyers than the Space Marines.

I'm not sure how, but you keep going way beyond the scope of what I'm talking about. Those are Forgeworld models and rules. 6th edition brought flyers into an enviornment that favored their use due to the limited availability of skyfire, interceptor, and flyers. That's all I'm talking about. GW could have brought in flyers from forgeworld or made new ones like the dakka jet and storm talons. But they did it for two armies while others wait on their army updates.

How many Fire Warrior units can you take?
How many other units could you take that people would present the argument that "Missile Drones can be taken here too!".

Ok... How many Tactical marine squads can an army take? How many troop choices with heavy weapons can marine armies take? And they can take heavy weapons in other units as well?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Oh, and Space Marines are apparently getting updated within the year, so I don't think you can justify as trying to help hold them over. Yeah... no bias there.

The same way that Daemons and Chaos Space Marines got updated before Tau or Eldar? Why is it that that's only unfair when it's Vanilla being updated?

I'm loving the 'we don't want to spam missile drones we just want to have some options!!!' argument. Nothing is more pretentious than that. Allow Missile Drones to all squads and we might as well call it Codex: Missile Drones and not Codex: Tau.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

The same way that Daemons and Chaos Space Marines got updated before Tau or Eldar? Why is it that that's only unfair when it's Vanilla being updated?

Um... Only Deamons would apply in my example since they got some chariot and rule updates in a White Dwarf. Chaos space marines didn't get flyers until their codex got updated. Like Dark Angels. Like Tau. Like Eldar most likely will since I don't see them getting something new in a White Dwarf a month before the codex.

Now let's look at this simply. Did Codex: Space Marines get a flyer in the initial White Dwarf when they introduced flyers? Yes. Did Codex: Space Marines get another flyer added in from Death from the Skies, when they didn't have access before? Yes. So, adding 1 and 1 together I can make the conclusion that Codex: Space Marines got 2 flyers while most armies have to wait for their codex update.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:
I'm loving the 'we don't want to spam missile drones we just want to have some options!!!' argument. Nothing is more pretentious than that. Allow Missile Drones to all squads and we might as well call it Codex: Missile Drones and not Codex: Tau.

Good point. Let's take away heavy weapons and tanks from IG because it's codex IG, not codex Tanks and Heavy Weapons. I love the argument that "wanting the option to take something isn't options."

And now it might as well be called Codex: BS3 Shooting Army, Better Bring Markerlights Empire. There are plenty of generalizations, but the point is the same. Having less options to take things does not make it more versatile or allow for more options.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If every SM Chapter is so brokenly overpowered, why are Imperial Guard and Necrons the top performers? Blaming everything on some sort of percieved bias towards Space Marines is getting old, get over it.

I am not Commander Shepard, but THIS is my favorite post on the Citadel.. and Dakka...

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

The same way that Daemons and Chaos Space Marines got updated before Tau or Eldar? Why is it that that's only unfair when it's Vanilla being updated?

Um... Only Deamons would apply in my example since they got some chariot and rule updates in a White Dwarf. Chaos space marines didn't get flyers until their codex got updated. Like Dark Angels. Like Tau. Like Eldar most likely will since I don't see them getting something new in a White Dwarf a month before the codex.

Now let's look at this simply. Did Codex: Space Marines get a flyer in the initial White Dwarf when they introduced flyers? Yes. Did Codex: Space Marines get another flyer added in from Death from the Skies, when they didn't have access before? Yes. So, adding 1 and 1 together I can make the conclusion that Codex: Space Marines got 2 flyers while most armies have to wait for their codex update.

But if it's unfair that Vanilla got new fliers, then why isn't it unfair that Chaos, DA and Daemons got updated before older books such as Eldar or Tau? And why is it that, despite Orks and Daemons and Eldar all having recieved updates in a similar manner, it's ALWAYS, without fail, Vanilla Space Marines that get singled out? If anything the WD Flamers and Screamers were miles more important than Vanilla getting fliers, but yet it's Vanilla that have to take the blame. Why?

Good point. Let's take away heavy weapons and tanks from IG because it's codex IG, not codex Tanks and Heavy Weapons

If IG got an update and basically every unit in the new book could get a Super Gun (tm) that point by point outperformed all other options for the same task, yes, we'd call it Codex: Super Guns. Since that's never happened your argument doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Further discussions of a perceived bias evidenced by GW are OT, and will be subject to sanction. Knock it off.

It is quite strange they missed the Daemons update, but the Tau were out the next day. Maybe they haven't gotten any complaints about issues with it? Otherwise, I'm happy the GW is trying to keep up the pace with their FAQ's(barring Daemons).

 Sinful Hero wrote:
It is quite strange they missed the Daemons update, but the Tau were out the next day. Maybe they haven't gotten any complaints about issues with it? Otherwise, I'm happy the GW is trying to keep up the pace with their FAQ's(barring Daemons).

Logically, there's hardly any "frequently asked questions" when they release FAQ a day releasing the new dex. They only posted 2 erratas, which the codex editor overlooked.

Perhaps Phil Kelly did a solid job writing the Daemons codex leaving little ambiguity?

So far, I really like what Jeremy Vetock has done with codex Tau and codex Dark Angels.

Honestly, I think this update was entirely necessary. It took only a matter of hours for my friend to send me a text message:

"guess how many missiles I can bring at 2k points? Hint: you didn't guess high enough"

So generally speaking, I think any FAQ changes that can prevent a spamming trend is a good thing. I like seeing diversity in armies, and if this means the Tau are required to synergize many units (like the Necrons) in order to be a powerful army, then that's only for the best.

Earth Caste:"We are finally able to mass produce missile drones. Which unit is most in need for missile support? Yeah, very funny, I meant most in need, not least."

 Kroothawk wrote:
Earth Caste:"We are finally able to mass produce missile drones. Which unit is most in need for missile support? Yeah, very funny, I meant most in need, not least."

Well I'm getting strange looks for chucking at the table. +1

I wish they had done a limit per unit or the like. Surgery instead of chainsaw amputation.