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Tau flyers have turrets? That actually makes them considerably powerful compared to other flyers.

Night Scythe? Fly behind it and light it up.

Dakkajets? Same

Razorwing? See above.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Tau flyers have turrets? That actually makes them considerably powerful compared to other flyers.

Night Scythe? Fly behind it and light it up.

Dakkajets? Same

Razorwing? See above.

Agreed. Both flyers can fly right past an enemy flyer and hit it with 4-6 str 7 shots... the Bomber (believe it or not) has those TL too.

The SunShark had 4 7/4 shots (if it can rapid fire) that are TL from its drones, a TL ML at 7/4 x2 on a turret, and if you can/want 2 seekers also. Even Heldrake has to respect that... especially if its a shoot to the tail.

You won't believe what I would give to have turrets on my flyers.

Can you imagine a night scythe with a turret? That would be scary.

The thing that bothers me about the razorshark is that the turret can't point at anything in front of the plane, so that front armament is going to be completely wasted and should you ever want to hit a flier that's in front of you, you can't.

Don't get me wrong though, I think skimming around and dropping S7 and seekers into rear armor is going to be a lot of fun.

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Anyone thinking of remoras?

Too expensive. Remoras are still stuck with a 4th edition price tag. The concept is good though, so if/when they get updated to 6th edition properly (the IA:Aeronautica update fixed the rules but not the balance issues) they could easily become a viable option.

Veskrashen wrote:
Both Tau flyers are good in the air-air role, primarily because their guns are on turrets, are S7, and they both throw a good number of shots. I don't really care what a flyer's frontal AV is if I'm always going to be shooting it in the back anyways. Lighter flyers will get massacred with the amount of S7 shots they can throw around. About the only one that's not easily threatened is the Stormraven.

Too bad STR 7 sucks against flyers. Even against AV 10 you've got four shots at BS 3, so two hits and then one pen at AP 4 against AV 10. That's a pretty low chance of a one-hit kill against a flyer (worse outright kill chance than a pair of rail broadsides shooting at AV 12 front armor), so your "good" AA flyer is going to have to wear down a target's HP over several turns of shooting. That's not even close to effective, so it makes no sense to waste points on weak AA flyers when we have awesome ground AA units.

Against ground units... they put out a lot of pain, but only against infantry or lighter vehicles.

Not really. Against ground units it's still just a handful of autocannon shots (don't forget that the bomber's missile pod can't fire at ground targets very often) and a pulse rifle bomb (if you can drop the bomb at all, getting the movement right to use bombs effectively is a lot harder than many people seem to think). That's not enough strength to be a meaningful threat to vehicles, not enough AP to be a meaningful threat to MEQs, and not enough volume of fire to be a meaningful threat to light infantry. In pretty much every situation the flyers will be out-shot by our ground units.

Being able to drop large blasts on blobs behind Aegis, from a direction that they don't get cover from (sides, or close enough in that it doesn't cover enough of the model to grant cover) will go a long way to clearing out light infantry that relies on those kinds of cover saves.

You know what else can do that? A Riptide with two markerlight hits. Same no-cover large blast, but wounds on a 2+ and doesn't allow armor saves. I know which one I'd rather have.

They can be effective against light-med mech on the ground as well, especially since they've obviously got the speed to get side / rear shots easily, and again can get LOS over Aegis to deny cover. In addition, against ground targets you'll be able to count on more Markerlight support for better effect.

See above for how completely ineffective a small number of BS 3 autocannon shots are at killing vehicles.

In all, they're pretty balanced. I think a lot of folks assume that if it's not an autotake over a Vendetta or Helldrake or if it can't autokill an entire Cron Air list by itself it's totally useless and not worth taking. Sometimes that attitude blinds people to the possibilities a unit has.

Sorry, but that's the correct attitude to have. In an edition where allies are legal and you can take a Vendetta/Helldrake/Scythe there's no reason at all to spend points on flyers that are worse than your ground units.

 Peregrine wrote:

Too bad STR 7 sucks against flyers. Even against AV 10 you've got four shots at BS 3, so two hits and then one pen at AP 4 against AV 10. That's a pretty low chance of a one-hit kill against a flyer (worse outright kill chance than a pair of rail broadsides shooting at AV 12 front armor), so your "good" AA flyer is going to have to wear down a target's HP over several turns of shooting. That's not even close to effective, so it makes no sense to waste points on weak AA flyers when we have awesome ground AA units.

6 S7 and 2 S8; the S7 will be twin-linked if we're talking about the Sunshark instead of the Razorshark. Bombers will get 4 S7 and 1 S8 hit on average, which is enough to take 2-3 HP against AV10 rear armor - more if that BS3 networked markerlight hits. Enough to kill your average flyer (again, everything except Stormravens).

Not really. Against ground units it's still just a handful of autocannon shots (don't forget that the bomber's missile pod can't fire at ground targets very often) and a pulse rifle bomb (if you can drop the bomb at all, getting the movement right to use bombs effectively is a lot harder than many people seem to think). That's not enough strength to be a meaningful threat to vehicles, not enough AP to be a meaningful threat to MEQs, and not enough volume of fire to be a meaningful threat to light infantry. In pretty much every situation the flyers will be out-shot by our ground units.

Again, the equivalent of 3 autocannons, and generally on side / rear armor if you have any talent at all - meaning you're generally targeting AV11 or less. Not counting the seekers. Oh, and since they're ground targets, you get ground based markerlight support. You're absolutely correct that they're not going to kill MEQs, but that's fine, that's not what they're meant to do. Besides, if things like Missile Pods and Tesla Destructors and such - also S7 - are considered good against light to medium vehicles, then so should S7 from a flyer that can hit side and rear armor with relative ease.

You know what else can do that? A Riptide with two markerlight hits. Same no-cover large blast, but wounds on a 2+ and doesn't allow armor saves. I know which one I'd rather have.

What, you mean the Riptide that's in the Elite slot, and doesn't compete FOC wise in any way? Or the S8 large blast that you get from the Hammerhead, and is a Heavy Support choice that doesn't compete FOC wise in anyway? Or maybe you mean the S8 large blast that a Razorshark can drop on anything within 30" of it, and doesn't need markerlights to get around an Aegis?

They can be effective against light-med mech on the ground as well, especially since they've obviously got the speed to get side / rear shots easily, and again can get LOS over Aegis to deny cover. In addition, against ground targets you'll be able to count on more Markerlight support for better effect.

See above for how completely ineffective a small number of BS 3 autocannon shots are at killing vehicles.

See above how high volume shots against side/rear armor, potentially twin linked, and using those markerlights you're stipulating for the Riptide per above, and hey lookie - BS3 ain't really an issue, is it?

In all, they're pretty balanced. I think a lot of folks assume that if it's not an autotake over a Vendetta or Helldrake or if it can't autokill an entire Cron Air list by itself it's totally useless and not worth taking. Sometimes that attitude blinds people to the possibilities a unit has.

Sorry, but that's the correct attitude to have. In an edition where allies are legal and you can take a Vendetta/Helldrake/Scythe there's no reason at all to spend points on flyers that are worse than your ground units.

Ah. So anything that's not a Vendetta or Helldrake is totally worthless and you shouldn't take it. And if you're not willing to take IG or CSM allies, you totally shouldn't bother playing. Besides, Scythes must obviously suck, because they only fire S7, and we all know from listening to your soapbox oratories is completely useless in any volume at all. No wonder Necrons lose so damn always.

Veskrashen wrote:
6 S7 and 2 S8; the S7 will be twin-linked if we're talking about the Sunshark instead of the Razorshark. Bombers will get 4 S7 and 1 S8 hit on average, which is enough to take 2-3 HP against AV10 rear armor - more if that BS3 networked markerlight hits. Enough to kill your average flyer (again, everything except Stormravens).

How are you getting your front-arc-only seeker missiles and markerlight to shoot at rear armor? The way you get rear armor on enemy flyers is to fly past them and shoot them with your rear-arc guns, so either you're shooting everything at AV 12 or only the turret guns at AV 10. That is, assuming you can draw line of sight with all of your weapons and your own hull doesn't block the drones.

And don't forget the limited range on rapid fire drone guns, if you aren't within 15" (easier said than done on a real table, especially since the drones are mounted in an awkward location) you're only getting four shots total.

Again, the equivalent of 3 autocannons, and generally on side / rear armor if you have any talent at all - meaning you're generally targeting AV11 or less. Not counting the seekers. Oh, and since they're ground targets, you get ground based markerlight support. You're absolutely correct that they're not going to kill MEQs, but that's fine, that's not what they're meant to do.

The point is that for a given point cost you get more firepower with non-flyer Tau units than with flyers. The only reason to ever take our overpriced flyers would be to kill enemy flyers, but we can kill those just fine with AA guns on the various battlesuits.

Besides, if things like Missile Pods and Tesla Destructors and such - also S7 - are considered good against light to medium vehicles, then so should S7 from a flyer that can hit side and rear armor with relative ease.

Tesla is good because Night Scythes are cheaper, dedicated transports, BS 4, and generate extra hits every time you roll a 6. The Tau flyers have none of that.

What, you mean the Riptide that's in the Elite slot, and doesn't compete FOC wise in any way? Or the S8 large blast that you get from the Hammerhead, and is a Heavy Support choice that doesn't compete FOC wise in anyway?

They compete in points, and that's more than enough reason not to take the flyers.

Or maybe you mean the S8 large blast that a Razorshark can drop on anything within 30" of it, and doesn't need markerlights to get around an Aegis?

But the bomb is only AP 5, so ignoring an aegis line only matters if you have tightly-packed guardsmen behind an aegis line AND there's enough room behind them to end your move more than 1" from an enemy model (which rarely happens since the aegis blob will be at the back table edge). Seriously, people need to actually play with bombers and realize just how hard it is to use bombs effectively without giving up the rest of your shooting.

Meanwhile the cover-ignoring Riptides and Hammerheads don't care about little details like "directional cover" or "armor saves", they just hit you with the same large blast but wound on a 2+ with no armor saves. It's pretty obviously not the flyer that will be doing the most damage here.

See above how high volume shots against side/rear armor, potentially twin linked, and using those markerlights you're stipulating for the Riptide per above, and hey lookie - BS3 ain't really an issue, is it?

BS 3 is much less relevant for blast weapons than for single-shot weapons.

So anything that's not a Vendetta or Helldrake is totally worthless and you shouldn't take it.

Or Vulture or Night Scythe. Those are the only flyers worth taking on their own merits, all of the other flyers are only worth taking if you need AA. And since Tau don't need flyers for AA there's no reason to use ours.

Besides, Scythes must obviously suck, because they only fire S7, and we all know from listening to your soapbox oratories is completely useless in any volume at all. No wonder Necrons lose so damn always.

Sigh. Did you even bother to read what I said? STR 7 sucks unless you have a lot of it. Tau flyers have weak guns with low volume of fire. Scythes have weak guns with high volume of fire. See the difference?

thejughead wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Weak and pointless. Their guns are pathetic (especially at BS 3, with the bomber's ion rifles firing at BS 1 until they disembark and die) and AV 11/10/10 is a joke. Meanwhile Tau have awesome AA guns in multiple FOC slots, so there's no need to take flyers to kill enemy flyers.

The book explicitly says the drones are turrets when mounted on the Flyer. They are not passengers, they fire at BS3.

You should learn to differentiate fluff text from rules text.

thejughead wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Weak and pointless. Their guns are pathetic (especially at BS 3, with the bomber's ion rifles firing at BS 1 until they disembark and die) and AV 11/10/10 is a joke. Meanwhile Tau have awesome AA guns in multiple FOC slots, so there's no need to take flyers to kill enemy flyers.

The book explicitly says the drones are turrets when mounted on the Flyer. They are not passengers, they fire at BS3.

Incorrect. Read the rules for drones.

Sun Shark seems to me to be better in most ways to the Razor Shark if you're considering taking one:

1) Its only 10pts more expensive if the Razorshark takes the missile pod, and it can upgrade this to twin-linked.
2) It has a networked markerlight
3) Interceptor drones have interceptor AND skyfire, meaning always full BS against everyone.
4) Interceptor drones can put out 2 large blasts, instead of one
5) Interceptor drones can disembark for hugely increased mobility and potentially survivability.
6) Interceptor drones have supporting fire
7) It has bombs, and potentially more than one.
8) Within 15" it has the same number of non-overheated shots
9) Overheating shots won't take precious hullpoints off the flier, and can be rerollled.
10) Weapon destroyed and immobilised results have far less impact on the firepower of the flier - interceptors can potentially survive a crash and are not destroyed with a weapon destroyed result.
11) BS2 Twin-Linked is always better than BS3 non-twin-linked, at any level of markerlight support; and it allows you to re-roll blast scatter.

In short, I can't see any reason why anyone would ever take the Razorshark over the Sun Shark.

Trasvi wrote:
Sun Shark seems to me to be better in most ways to the Razor Shark if you're considering taking one:

1) Its only 10pts more expensive if the Razorshark takes the missile pod, and it can upgrade this to twin-linked.
2) It has a networked markerlight
3) Interceptor drones have interceptor AND skyfire, meaning always full BS against everyone.
4) Interceptor drones can put out 2 large blasts, instead of one
5) Interceptor drones can disembark for hugely increased mobility and potentially survivability.
6) Interceptor drones have supporting fire
7) It has bombs, and potentially more than one.
8) Within 15" it has the same number of non-overheated shots
9) Overheating shots won't take precious hullpoints off the flier, and can be rerollled.
10) Weapon destroyed and immobilised results have far less impact on the firepower of the flier - interceptors can potentially survive a crash and are not destroyed with a weapon destroyed result.
11) BS2 Twin-Linked is always better than BS3 non-twin-linked, at any level of markerlight support; and it allows you to re-roll blast scatter.

In short, I can't see any reason why anyone would ever take the Razorshark over the Sun Shark.

Ion rifles are small blast when overcharged.

Dammit! Knew I'd have missed something. However, I think I can deal with that considering all the other benefits

As it stands now, the fliers aren't very good. However, GW seems to be re-balancing fliers the farther we get into 6th. So, depending on what they do with the Stormraven, they might get better.

Don't forget the Ace upgrade from "Death from the skies"; roll a 5 or 6 and anything within 12" bubble gets 3 marker lights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

thejughead wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Weak and pointless. Their guns are pathetic (especially at BS 3, with the bomber's ion rifles firing at BS 1 until they disembark and die) and AV 11/10/10 is a joke. Meanwhile Tau have awesome AA guns in multiple FOC slots, so there's no need to take flyers to kill enemy flyers.

The book explicitly says the drones are turrets when mounted on the Flyer. They are not passengers, they fire at BS3.

You should learn to differentiate fluff text from rules text.

Point me to where the codex states this is "Fluff" and this is "rules". You should also learn some etiquette when debating.

The book explicitly says the drones are turrets when mounted on the Flyer. They are not passengers, they fire at BS3.

This is HUGE. Can you please point to me where in the book it says this. Under the drones section in the beginning it states that attached drones count as passengers using fire ports, which sucks if they are mounted on a flyer always moving at cruising speed. If they can fire at full BS while attached, however, the sun shark would actually be worth fielding (because it can actually hit its targets without external aid). And I, for one, would enjoy fielding a Tau air force.

thejughead wrote:
Don't forget the Ace upgrade from "Death from the skies"; roll a 5 or 6 and anything within 12" bubble gets 3 marker lights.

Assuming you're using the optional DftS rules, which very few people are.

Phanixis wrote:

The book explicitly says the drones are turrets when mounted on the Flyer. They are not passengers, they fire at BS3.

This is HUGE. Can you please point to me where in the book it says this. Under the drones section in the beginning it states that attached drones count as passengers using fire ports, which sucks if they are mounted on a flyer always moving at cruising speed. If they can fire at full BS while attached, however, the sun shark would actually be worth fielding (because it can actually hit its targets without external aid). And I, for one, would enjoy fielding a Tau air force.

He's referring to this small paragraph in the Tau Codex that is found in the fluff section of the Sun Shark Bomber.

To ensure the Sun Shark survives long enough to deliver its bombing run, the vehicle is equipped with a pair of wing mounted Interceptor Drones. Each armed with a powerful twin-linked ion rifle, Interceptor Drones can either stay attached to the Sun Shark, where they act like turret mounted weapons, or, they can detach from the flyer and serve as an escort.

It's merely a description and is not a rule. Though his argument now is define what is fluff vs rule. I can't attest to this, but I can tell you no one in my area would allow that section to dictate rules when it clearly defines them as passengers on another page.

It also says where they 'act like', not that they count as.

Dang! And here I was thinking the sun shark would actually be worth fielding.

The razorshark would have been a whole lot better had it just been given either BS4 or twin-linked guns. Even if it gets behind its target, it can easily miss with the majority of its shots. Can if it is dogfighting, marker support will be hard to come by.

I really don't know what Vetock was thinking with the Tau flyer design. Most armies bring their A game when fielding fliers, which tend to carry the hardest hitting weapons available to that army. Unfortunately, our fliers can't even hit as hard as a well equipped crisis team.

So how are Barracudas? It shouldn't be too hard to build a flyer armed like Barracuda with the new kit and few extra bits.

Barracuda are rather fragile with only two hull points and only armor ten but they are cheap and carry a proper weapon (ion cannon) along with a twin-linked missile pod and two burst cannon. They also have the option to take up to four seeker missiles. They are probably better than either of the codex flyers.

The biggest plus for Tau fliers...to me... has ben mntioned. they will have air superiority if they go second. Th enemy will not HAVE aircraft NOR anti-air by the time it matters.

So on its own merits, the Bomber is better most likely, althouh that STR 8 template is gnarly...

Is it worth it? Gonna' be TOUGH to squeeze em in as has also ben said. But if you're committed to them, and take anti-air elsewhere, they can probably go on vehicle sniping patrols in a big circle and just keep plugging enemy units endlssly.

I don't know that I will test the theory, but it seems like if you take them, you gotta go all out with them (3). I am still going to test one, but I dont expect that it will be my centerpiece any time soon. but it could be fun.

Things that have made the Tau flyers disappointing for me:

1)The wings. They are too long and too human looking. It makes the vehicle look all wrong. Some examples of things that could have prevented this:
a)Shorter wings, or
b)Wing tips being curved instead of square, or
c)Wings curving backwards, making it look more like a manta ray, or
d)Having the "broad back wings tapering to a blunt nose" look of all previous Tau flyers.

IMO, currently, a Piranha conversion makes a better looking flyer.

2)Their armor sucks balls for no apparent reason.

3)With such terrible armor, they should have been given Vector Dancer. Especially the Strike Fighter with that extra pair of rotatable engines in the wings... Which apparently do nothing at all.

4)Possibly limited (and crappy) bombs for no apparent reason other than GW has decided that Tau are the new Orks when it comes to gakky, unreliable technology. (See Nova Charge and Ion weaponry.)

 MajinMalak wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

I can't attest to this, but I can tell you no one in my area would allow that section to dictate rules when it clearly defines them as passengers on another page.

It also says where they 'act like', not that they count as.

The word passenger is never used in the entry. The Drone is listed under the Wargear section of the Sunshark bomber. Wargear is fired with the model's BS. The entry for the Drone is used when it "disembarks" from the Sunshark. If they are pasengers where is the transport capacity for the bomber? The same goes for the gun drones on a devilfish.

thejughead wrote:

 MajinMalak wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

I can't attest to this, but I can tell you no one in my area would allow that section to dictate rules when it clearly defines them as passengers on another page.

It also says where they 'act like', not that they count as.

The word passenger is never used in the entry. The Drone is listed under the Wargear section of the Sunshark bomber. Wargear is fired with the model's BS. The entry for the Drone is used when it "disembarks" from the Sunshark. If they are pasengers where is the transport capacity for the bomber? The same goes for the gun drones on a devilfish.

This is pretty clearly set out on Page 33, under Vehicle Drones heading. Drones can be attached to a vehicle, "don't count towards transport capacity and they can even be attached to a vehicle that doesn't have transport capacity". Attached drones "can make shooting attacks as if they were passengers shooting from Fire Points".

Trasvi wrote:

thejughead wrote:

 MajinMalak wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

I can't attest to this, but I can tell you no one in my area would allow that section to dictate rules when it clearly defines them as passengers on another page.

It also says where they 'act like', not that they count as.

The word passenger is never used in the entry. The Drone is listed under the Wargear section of the Sunshark bomber. Wargear is fired with the model's BS. The entry for the Drone is used when it "disembarks" from the Sunshark. If they are pasengers where is the transport capacity for the bomber? The same goes for the gun drones on a devilfish.

This is pretty clearly set out on Page 33, under Vehicle Drones heading. Drones can be attached to a vehicle, "don't count towards transport capacity and they can even be attached to a vehicle that doesn't have transport capacity". Attached drones "can make shooting attacks as if they were passengers shooting from Fire Points".

Where is the Interceptor drone entry on page 33?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have to concede this point. The Drone is listed as a seperate entry under the wargear section, but I still say it should fire like a turret and what ever that confers. Although they should have a line that refers to page 33 drone rules if that is the correct intent. Would have saved alot of typing.

thejughead wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

This is pretty clearly set out on Page 33, under Vehicle Drones heading. Drones can be attached to a vehicle, "don't count towards transport capacity and they can even be attached to a vehicle that doesn't have transport capacity". Attached drones "can make shooting attacks as if they were passengers shooting from Fire Points".

Where is the Interceptor drone entry on page 33?

Interceptor Drones are unit type Jetpack Infrantry (Drones). Rules for Drones are found on page 33.
None of the rules for Drones under 'Unit Upgrade Drones', or 'Vehicle Drones' headings on page 33 are specific to any kind of drones. There is a list of the 4 most widely available drone types for reference, (Missile drones notwithstanding due to GW's hasty nerf)

This does not include SMS or Burst Cannon options on tanks. I rarely use gun drones on tanks anyway.

I did concede the point as the wargear entry was split into two sections and I thought they were one. Also, reading the text in the Sunshark entry led me to believe they behaved like turrets. So I will have to either cruise the sunshark to fire at BS2 or Zoom 36 and disembark and then fire at BS2 from the ground.

Yeah, you're right. SMS and Burst Canon are weapon systems of the tank itself. SMS i think for the tanks are better than BC in all situations and better than gun drones for most (except nuisance/bubblewrap duty).
And yeah, that is the other option: Zoom 36" disembark and fire at full BS.
IMO the main problem is not the reduction in BS (It's only 2 down to 1) but the inability to fire the blast weapons while snapshotting that really ruins it. The main perk that the Interceptor Drones have is that they can put out 2 S8AP4 blasts on the move with high accuracy and little danger from Gets Hot.

Trasvi wrote:
Yeah, you're right. SMS and Burst Canon are weapon systems of the tank itself. SMS i think for the tanks are better than BC in all situations

As stated, this is really understated.
Burst Cannon:------------>Cost: free. 4 shots. Twin Linked. S5. AP5. Range 18".
Smart Missile System:->Cost: free. 4 shots. Twin Linked. S5. AP5. Range 30". Ignores Cover. Doesn't require any Line of Sight.

The question is not "which do I take?"
The question is "why is the Burst Cannon even an option?"

If the flier have a networked markerlight doesn't that make them a lot better?

Fire that off at an enemy flyer and all of a sudden your Hammerhead is hitting at BS2/3/whatever.

So the Tau flyer has AV11 and just a S7 gun? And this is terrible? on top of this it has a bomb and a markerlight to boost BS/ignore cover (could the markerlight negate "evade" saves?).

if Av11 is so laughable then why are the necron flyers considered so overpowered (i'm not saying they're not btw -they are stupidly good) - they're no more survivable than these Tau ones.