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jareddm wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The Second Founding did not create more Space Marines, excepting (interestingly enough) the Wolf Brothers as the Successor Chapter of the Space Wolves.

The Wolf Brothers were not newly created. They were the Space Wolves complying with the new chapter requirement as little as possible, by only splitting into two forces instead of more like many other legions. It was when the Wolf Brothers started to amass casualties and started recruiting from worlds other than Fenris that the problems started. Eventually, the original legionaries from Fenris died out.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_Brothers#.UWyGBkqRcpo

the lost primarchs have kind of been mentioned in passing in the Hh books and it tends to be referred to as a targedy. That makes me think that they were not lost to Chaos or anything like that (otherwise surely they could have seent he signs of the Heresy coming).

Also the primarchs that talk about it seem to do so in a sad way rather than angry which makes me thik they were lost in some kind of accident.

Yeh in my time researching the lost primarchs I have to agree ^.

An accident seems the most likely, but I have been struggling with kind of accident occurred, and I hope it is not "lost in a warp storm."

If memory serves me correctly, wasn't there a scene in one of th BL books about the Blood Angels where Sangiunius kills one of his men because he had the Red Thirst. When someone from another chapter asked why he didn't tell the emperor, Sanguinius says in so many words that he doesn't want his statue on Terra to become empty like his brothers.

No quote sorry about that, thought I read it on lexicanum somewhere but now can't find it.

pretty much yeah. I think it is in Fear to Tread.

 Galdos wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well, if the rumours of those Legions being absorbed into the XIII are true, then wouldn't some chapters be descended from they anyway? If the Apothecaries never caught on to 2 strange types of Geneseed would carry on. Maybe some chapters got that. Like other chapters who don't know their Primogenitor.

They are not true. The Horus Heresy comes out and says repeatedly that the lost legions did NOT merge with the Ultramarines. The Word Bearer who says that had no idea what he was talking about and the guy he was with even told him that he had no idea what he was talking about so he should stop saying things like that

I have never seen these repeated denials of the merging that you refer to. In any case, just because they say it doesn't make it true. I imagine it would be something akin to the real world denial of Israel having nuclear arms. People say it over and over again, yet its accepted as fact by pretty much everyone that they do.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well, if the rumours of those Legions being absorbed into the XIII are true, then wouldn't some chapters be descended from they anyway? If the Apothecaries never caught on to 2 strange types of Geneseed would carry on. Maybe some chapters got that. Like other chapters who don't know their Primogenitor.

They are not true. The Horus Heresy comes out and says repeatedly that the lost legions did NOT merge with the Ultramarines. The Word Bearer who says that had no idea what he was talking about and the guy he was with even told him that he had no idea what he was talking about so he should stop saying things like that

I have never seen these repeated denials of the merging that you refer to. In any case, just because they say it doesn't make it true. I imagine it would be something akin to the real world denial of Israel having nuclear arms. People say it over and over again, yet its accepted as fact by pretty much everyone that they do.

I think everything we know is speculation. As other posters have stated some info comes from a word bearer and cannot be confirmed. I do believe it was mentioned in Know no Fear that the UM legion did grow everytime another legion was removed and could explain why the UM were so large. I could be possible that those primarchs were never found or found dead and their legions needed a leader. It is interesting to note that the missing legions are the 2nd and the 11th which add up to be the 13th or the UM. I think its left intentionally vague so we can do whatever we want with it. Leaving it like this allows us to make the missing legions loyalist or the earliest heritics depending on what we want.

SpyderG6 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well, if the rumours of those Legions being absorbed into the XIII are true, then wouldn't some chapters be descended from they anyway? If the Apothecaries never caught on to 2 strange types of Geneseed would carry on. Maybe some chapters got that. Like other chapters who don't know their Primogenitor.

They are not true. The Horus Heresy comes out and says repeatedly that the lost legions did NOT merge with the Ultramarines. The Word Bearer who says that had no idea what he was talking about and the guy he was with even told him that he had no idea what he was talking about so he should stop saying things like that

I have never seen these repeated denials of the merging that you refer to. In any case, just because they say it doesn't make it true. I imagine it would be something akin to the real world denial of Israel having nuclear arms. People say it over and over again, yet its accepted as fact by pretty much everyone that they do.

I think everything we know is speculation. As other posters have stated some info comes from a word bearer and cannot be confirmed. I do believe it was mentioned in Know no Fear that the UM legion did grow everytime another legion was removed and could explain why the UM were so large. I could be possible that those primarchs were never found or found dead and their legions needed a leader. It is interesting to note that the missing legions are the 2nd and the 11th which add up to be the 13th or the UM. I think its left intentionally vague so we can do whatever we want with it. Leaving it like this allows us to make the missing legions loyalist or the earliest heritics depending on what we want.

thank you very much. I just want to make my own CHAPTER. Not legion. I don't want to be the guy who shows up with a legion that still have their Primarch, and have never lost a battle. At least I would like to formulate a reasonable backstory as to why they were removed. Since the 40k universe is filled with trillions of different view points, who the hell really knows what happened thousands of years in the past! That is why I choose to believe that the legions were left empty so that people could make their own army, that had a completely different history than what is given. Now if this was the original intention of GW, I don't know. But now that the mythology has grown so much over the years, sometimes players want to be able to make their army different from just 4th company Dark Angels, Or 2nd company Ultramarines.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well, if the rumours of those Legions being absorbed into the XIII are true, then wouldn't some chapters be descended from they anyway? If the Apothecaries never caught on to 2 strange types of Geneseed would carry on. Maybe some chapters got that. Like other chapters who don't know their Primogenitor.

They are not true. The Horus Heresy comes out and says repeatedly that the lost legions did NOT merge with the Ultramarines. The Word Bearer who says that had no idea what he was talking about and the guy he was with even told him that he had no idea what he was talking about so he should stop saying things like that

I have never seen these repeated denials of the merging that you refer to. In any case, just because they say it doesn't make it true. I imagine it would be something akin to the real world denial of Israel having nuclear arms. People say it over and over again, yet its accepted as fact by pretty much everyone that they do.

Rogal Dorn says it on 3 SEPARATE OCCASION! (3 different stories)

In The Lighting Tower, in Mechanicum, and in another book (I forgot what the 3rd was)

Dorn and Malacador are discussing the HH and ways to combat it and they play with the idea of using the lost legions. Ultimately Malacador tells him that even if they wanted to, they cant use the legions in the war.

In the stories it is made clear that either 2 options are possible.

They are in stasis but are unable to be activated. (Only the Emperor can release them) or they are crusading and can not be contacted


Dorn and Malcador would no better than anyone what happened to these guys.

I often thought that one, if not both of the legions were removed from record because they were meant for something that the Imperium would not approve of. Like a force that was meant to kill all other psychics in the universe to stop chaos incursions, or (like I use for my successor chapter's fluff) their legion was meant to replace the Mechanicus' leadership so that Mars and all other forgeworlds would be under space marine control.
At that point in 40k's history the emperor was trying to bring the universe together under his rule.
The only force that emperor didn't completely control at the time and would have the power to completely stop his crusade, was Mars and the Mechanicus. If there are any other ideas on who else could have ruined the crusade besides Mars, or the legions of course, I would like to hear them.
The emperor then would have to remove them completely from history to insure that no one could investigate their past.
Unfortunately, it is more likely that they were never found or died, and their legions died out.
But we all know the emperor wasn't perfect, and he sacrificed the Thunder Warriors to further his plans. If someone stood in his way, even his own "son" would not be safe.

IIRC, they are referred to as "The Lost" and "The Purged", so whatever happened, it wasn't good.

I've always been under the impression they exist simply as mechanism for people to design successor chapters... So if you are looking for a backstory you could say they were a chapter that was always assumed to be successors of (insert chapter of choice here) but recent research into their geneseed has revealed they are not of any geneseed stock known to the Imperium and therefore one of the "lost" chapters...

2x210 wrote:
I've always been under the impression they exist simply as mechanism for people to design successor chapters... So if you are looking for a backstory you could say they were a chapter that was always assumed to be successors of (insert chapter of choice here) but recent research into their geneseed has revealed they are not of any geneseed stock known to the Imperium and therefore one of the "lost" chapters...

that was the original plan for them by Games Workshop

but then again, Leman Russ was original a general of the Imperial Guard.

This might be off topic, but I read a small excerpt from a PDF file of Age of the Emperor rules book for playing heresy era armies. I am pretty sure it is in most part made by fans and not an official rule book, but I could be wrong.
Anyway in the section speaking about the different terminator marks used in 30k armies, this interesting paragraph caught my attention;

Prototype Tactical Dreadnought Armour

"During the turmoil of the Horus Heresy, Artificers relied on refined designs of armour first used by the II and XI Legions but since only found in limited numbers amongst XIII..."

I am sure that this is just artistic license by the authors of the book, but I thought that was an interesting idea for the lost legions. Perhaps they experimented with tech, or used tech that ended up killing/mutating them.

So this could be nothing but thought it might interesting place to start with my own successor chapter. What strikes me is how different this armor looks from any other armor mark. Here is a link to an image how it works.

http://www.tearsofenvy.com/termi-nation/armour_mk01.htm

I remember the part of the story from the book Phalanx, when the soul drinkers were under investigation. It was brought up that the soul drinkers geneseed was not from the DNA of Any known primarch.

Maybe they could be...idk

There is some decent circumstantial evidence that the II and XI legions were created, but later folded into 1 or more existing legions. There isn't much reason to doubt that in my opinion.

The real mystery is, has, and always will be, the fate of their respective Primarchs.

I've always operated under the assumption that at least 1 of them turned to chaos before the Emperor found him. Perhaps one of them was badly mutated due to contact with the warp while gestating. Truth is, the information is left purposely vague so that we 40K nerds can decide for ourselves.

 Traejun wrote:
but later folded into 1 or more existing legions. There isn't much reason to doubt that in my opinion.
.

Except that the Supreme Commander of the Imperium's forces and the man second only to the Emperor in power were discussing potentially using them in the war against Horus

The Lost? maybe the whole legion went on a crusade and went missing in the warp?

So the can resurface in the current 40k as a new chapter?

 Galdos wrote:

2x210 wrote:
I've always been under the impression they exist simply as mechanism for people to design successor chapters... So if you are looking for a backstory you could say they were a chapter that was always assumed to be successors of (insert chapter of choice here) but recent research into their geneseed has revealed they are not of any geneseed stock known to the Imperium and therefore one of the "lost" chapters...

that was the original plan for them by Games Workshop

but then again, Leman Russ was original a general of the Imperial Guard.

Why do you think Leman Russ was originally an IG general? My understanding is the tank was named after the primarch not some IG general. The third edition SW codex had a Leman Russ exterminator option and the sidebar fluff said they had the tank in honor of their primarch. I have to go with it being named after the primarch unless you can cite a source that contradicts this.

I agree with you and others that the two lost legions were likely meant by GW to be used as the basis for people to make up their own chapters.

In regard to the Horus Heresy book series, I have read all but the most recent books and to me it appears that the lost 2 legions were destroyed by the Emperor's command. Besides the things Dorn says, the conversation between Magnus and Lorgar; and Russ and his skald suggests to me that the primarchs were definitely killed and the legions also destroyed or partially subsumed into existing legion(s).

If the legions were just lost by accident there would not be any reason for such high level secrecy and even the primarchs being forbidden to speak the names of their lost brothers to each other. Likewise if they were in stasis as someone else mentioned. I dont really care much if they were lost or purged. Plot wise I find the purging to be more interesting than the idea they just got lost in the warp or something.

If they did go renegade and were sanctioned it is interesting because it would be another screw up by the Emperor to not see the betrayal of Horus and the other traitor legions.

I do find it interesting that some other people are reading the exact same books I am but coming to a very different conclusion. Maybe it is the difference between a pessimist and an optimist.

Musselman wrote:
This might be off topic, but I read a small excerpt from a PDF file of Age of the Emperor rules book for playing heresy era armies. I am pretty sure it is in most part made by fans and not an official rule book, but I could be wrong.
Anyway in the section speaking about the different terminator marks used in 30k armies, this interesting paragraph caught my attention;

Prototype Tactical Dreadnought Armour

"During the turmoil of the Horus Heresy, Artificers relied on refined designs of armour first used by the II and XI Legions but since only found in limited numbers amongst XIII..."

I am sure that this is just artistic license by the authors of the book, but I thought that was an interesting idea for the lost legions. Perhaps they experimented with tech, or used tech that ended up killing/mutating them.

So this could be nothing but thought it might interesting place to start with my own successor chapter. What strikes me is how different this armor looks from any other armor mark. Here is a link to an image how it works.

http://www.tearsofenvy.com/termi-nation/armour_mk01.htm

Here's the miniature for it, it was in a White Dwarf in the low 100s, in the run up to releasing Space Hulk.

^ yup that is the armor. If that was exclusive to the 2nd and 11th legions, maybe it shows experimenting with equipment before the rest of the imperium, and thus a greater chance for mutation or accidents.